Evangelical with a question

[Jane_Doe]

3 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Put it this way.  Until anyone can tell me how they can believe a prophet who plagerized Egyptian hyroglifs text and photos to create a false book that you all believe in, the BIble is closed.

But the Bible doesn't say the Bible is closed....  

[LeSellers]

36 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Where is that in the Bible?  Lehi.  I'll ask for the 10th time.

So I'll ask you, where does the Bible say the canon is closed?

As for the promise of more scripture, we can start with the books known (in a few cases only suspected) to be missing from the canon.

Book of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21:14)
Book of Jasher (Josh. 10:13; 2 Sam. 1:18)
Book of the Acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11:41)
Book of Samuel the Seer (1 Chr. 29:29)
Book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29:29)
Book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29:29; 2 Chr. 9:29)
Prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9:29)
Visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9:29; 12:15; 13:22)
Book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12:15)
Book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20:34)
Sayings of the Seers (2 Chr. 33:19)
An epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5:9)
An epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4:16)
An earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3:3)
Some prophecies of Enoch which Jude quoted (Jude 1:14)

The book of the covenant (Ex. 24:7), which may be included in the current book of Exodus
The manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10:25) may be included in the current canon.
The rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26:22) may also be included in the canon.

When we have these books (along with others know to us only from Book of Mormon references), we can worry about the prophecies of modern scripture.

Why were these books excluded by those who determined the canon? Who closed the canon? What authority did he/they have to close it?

Lehi

[estradling75]

15 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

You may have missed when I said after the apostles were dead.   If you would look at the dates of each book, you may understand instead of guessing.

  And again I would ask you to cite that,...  where does the bible say that after the apostles are dead the cannon is closed

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Put it this way.  Until anyone can tell me how they can believe a prophet who plagerized Egyptian hyroglifs text and photos to create a false book that you all believe in, the BIble is closed.

How you trust that is one of the main obstacles to the world understanding you.

 

The BIBLE stands!!!!!!!

Your book is in the pyramids with the dead.

Easy... we followed James 1:5   If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

We study, we pray, we ask...  And God fulfills his promise.

And when we know God's mind on the matter the opinions of Men about Joseph Smith character or methods are not relevant

[LeSellers]

46 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

So how do you guys explain the Book of Abraham and that horrible mistranslation of hyroglifs?

How do you explain the fact that those horrible mistranslations of the hieroglyphs (please learn to spell when you're making these absurd charges) have been shown to be very accurate? You want a URL? Try this one: http://www.ida.net/graphics/shirtail/hypoceph.htm

After you figure this out, we can go to the next one.

You do know that the Hathor cow did represent the sun to the Egyptians, right?

You know that Osiris represented every dead man?

Lehi

[LeSellers]

2 hours ago, Tobeloved said:

Until anyone can tell me how they can believe a prophet who plagerized Egyptian hyroglifs text and photos to create a false book that you all believe in, the BIble is closed.

Until you can show me that there are photos in the Book of Abraham, it looks very much like you're ignorant.

You need to show us that the canon is closed. Whether the Bible is or not depends on whether you want the additional truth in those missing books I mentioned in my earlier post.

The Bible never says the canon is closed. You claim it is, so show us where the canon (the Bible) declares itself closed.

You seem to be quick to demand that we show chapter and verse, but seem unable or unwilling to meet your own criterion.

Lehi

Edited April 23, 2016 by LeSellers

[Guest]

I would like to remind all current, prior, and future posters of the rules you agree(d) to when signing up for this site. They are readily available and visible every time you sign on the site. Please have the respect and integrity to abide by the rules you agree(d) to. Pay particular attention to rule #1. 

[estradling75]

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Easy... we followed James 1:5   If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

We study, we pray, we ask...  And God fulfills his promise.

And when we know God's mind on the matter the opinions of Men about Joseph Smith character or methods are not relevant

I am quoting myself to give a biblical example of this.

Lets say you lived in the time of the New Testament...  You heard about this Christ fellow and his claims to be the Son of God.  You read on the ancient version of Wikipedia that this Jesus person was taken to court and found guilty of blaspheme and was executed...    Every fact just about every piece of evidence that can get shows him to be some kind of revolutionary.   Yet there is a very small group of his followers that are claiming outrageous things like him Rising from the Dead.  If true then their claims are very important to believe and accept...   So what do you do?  What can you do but study the scriptures and pray... Asking God to lead you to where he wants you to be.

 

 

 

[Jane_Doe]

@Tobeloved

I know that we've taken a firm stance with you here.  I can understand how you could feel very flustered here.  In my many years of experience with interfaith dialogue I've noticed that conversations mostly go one of two ways:

Way #1: Both parties agree to respectfully disagree and you learn about each other.  This way is can be fantastic to learn about other people, other beliefs in God, and your own beliefs of God (enviably someone asks a question you've never ever thought of).

Way #2: One or both parties tries to to convince the other that their view is wrong.  This usually results in a giant headache.  Why?  Because people aren't stupid, and they usually have good reasons for believing what they do and are going to push back to some random person trying to tell them they're wrong (frequently without understanding them at all).  All too frequently this way results in nothing but a giant headache and an impressive show of people not listening to each other at all.  

I really like conversations in Way #1 and not so much in Way #2.  I think that most people feel the same.  Right now, we've had a lot of #2 headache.  Would you like to change that?

[Connie]

Just to talk a bit about the LDS view of canon. To us it is most definitely an open canon. We don’t really think it’s proper or possible to limit the words God can give us. If God is the same yesterday, today and forever, then to us it’s within the realm of possibility that He will talk to prophets in our day just as He did to those in ancient times. It might be helpful to think of our additional scripture as supplementation just as other Christians have creeds or other writings as supplementation. They become the lens through which we read the Bible just as the creeds are the lens through which other Christians read the Bible.

Here is partially how Robert Millet said it:

“Occastionally we hear certain Latter-day Saint teachings described as unbiblical or a particular doctrine as being contradictory to the Bible. Let’s be clear on this matter. The Bible is one of the books within our standard works, and thus our doctrines and practices are in harmony with the Bible. There are times, of course, when latter-day revelation provides clarification or enhancement of the intended meaning in the Bible. Addition to the canon is not, however, the same as rejection of the canon. Supplementation is not the same as contradiction. All of the prophets and the Savior himself were sent to bring new light and knowledge to the world; in many cases, new scripture came as a result of their ministry. That new scripture did not invalidate what went before, nor did it close the door to subsequent revelation. We feel deep gratitude for the holy scriptures, but we do not worship scripture. Nor do we feel it appropriate to set bounds to the works and ways of the Almighty, to tell God, essentially, ‘Thus far and no more.’ …

Persons of other faiths sometimes cite scriptural warnings against adding to or taking away from the Bible. … Latter-day Saints believe that these warnings have to do with the condemnation associated with a man—an uninspired man, a man not called of God—taking upon himself the responsibility to add to or take from the canon of scripture. It is God’s right to speak beyond what he has spoken already (as he certainly did in the person and messages and works of Jesus himself), and Latter-day Saints feel that God directs and empowers his children as need arises. Nowhere does the Bible itself declare that God will no longer speak directly to his children or add to past scripture.” (from Getting at the Truth, chapter 5, question 1)

So really it comes down to whether Joseph Smith was a prophet of God or not. And the only way you can find that out is to ask God yourself in true sincerity.

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

 Would you like to change that?

She will not be able to post at lds.net anymore.

[Vort]

2 hours ago, Eowyn said:

She will not be able to post at lds.net anymore.

But she was so sincere.

Oh, and open-minded, too.

[Vort]

I am sure the mods are privately gushing to each other about how impressed they are that I stayed completely out of this thread. Yes, I'm sure they're falling all over themselves and each other to pile up the plaudits in my honor. I humbly accept the adoration.

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, Vort said:

I am sure the mods are privately gushing to each other about how impressed they are that I stayed completely out of this thread. Yes, I'm sure they're falling all over themselves and each other to pile up the plaudits in my honor. I humbly accept the adoration.

I was actually quite amazed at your silence-- thought that you were gone out of internet service.

[David13]

337 posts and Vort wasn't in there?  That seems like it may be a record or something.

I couldn't read 14 pages, and I've been busy since Wednesday, so I just saw this. 

I'm surprised it went on to 14 pages.

dc

[Guest]

On 4/23/2016 at 5:17 PM, Eowyn said:

She will not be able to post at lds.net anymore.

But we never gave her enough time to answer any of our questions.  How else do you explain that she never did?

[Daisyjune]

"Can someone be in the highest heavan with Jesus without having performed ordinance work?"  

I don't claim to know the answer to this question but I will say that Joseph Smith saw his Elder brother Alvin in the highest kingdom without even having been baptized into the LDS church. (This is because it had not yet been established) Joseph was told that the reason for this was because Alvin would have been baptized if he had been given the opportunity. 

[LeSellers]

6 minutes ago, Daisyjune said:

"Can someone be in the highest heavan with Jesus without having performed ordinance work?" 

Indeed, yes!

That's why we build Temples around the world. Those who could not accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ during their lives will receive the opportunity in the Spirit World. In Doctrine and Covenants section 138, we read that Jesus organized His missionary forces to preach the same message there as here with this exception: the dead, as spirits, will have to have Faith in the Lord, Jesus Christ, repent, accept proxy baptism and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by proxy.

We do these proxy ordinances for everyone we can find (with a few classes of exceptions). That's why we have the world's largest genealogical organization in the world.

Lehi

[Just_A_Guy]

37 minutes ago, Daisyjune said:

"Can someone be in the highest heavan with Jesus without having performed ordinance work?"  

I don't claim to know the answer to this question but I will say that Joseph Smith saw his Elder brother Alvin in the highest kingdom without even having been baptized into the LDS church. (This is because it had not yet been established) Joseph was told that the reason for this was because Alvin would have been baptized if he had been given the opportunity. 

Alvin's exaltation was still contingent on certain future events.  We know this because in that same vision Joseph saw his father and mother in the Celestial Kingdom; even though both were actually still alive as of the date of the vision (1836).  Thus the vision was of what could be and perhaps even would be--not of things as they currently stood at the time.

Edited July 23, 2016 by Just_A_Guy