Evangelical with a question

[Tobeloved]

12 hours ago, MormonGator said:

12 hours ago, zil said:

Not to cut anyone else short, but why do we need more than the Savior's own words in John 3:5 - clearly baptism by water and the Holy Ghost is needed.

My thoughts 100%

There is something about the Bible that many people do not see if they do not study it fairly well.  It is a common perception by many that the Bible reads like a novel.  You  go straight through, you start at the beginning and read to the end.

But the Bible is so much more complicated than that.  For instance, Acts is a summary overall and details Paul's journeys and the churches he started (Rome, Corinth, Phillipi, Galatia, Ephesis, Colossae, Thessolonia, and he also wrote Hebrews and Philimon.

So much of the basic information about Paul is in Acts, but then all of the Epistles are written back to the churches he started in the above locations. 

I guess what I am saying, is that it is important that scripture references scripture and that no verse really stands alone.  Took me a while to get that out.

[zil]

3 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree about how we interpret the passages.

Agree.  It seems clear that @Tobeloved is firmly convinced that baptism is not a necessary ordinance, and will not accept any interpretation of scripture that it is.  In contrast, faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot believe anything other than that baptism is a necessary ordinance.  IMO, if understanding is sought, this is it in a nutshell; and the baptism discussion has reached the "going in circles" phase.

[zil]

1 minute ago, Tobeloved said:

There is something about the Bible that many people do not see if they do not study it fairly well.  It is a common perception by many that the Bible reads like a novel.  You  go straight through, you start at the beginning and read to the end.

But the Bible is so much more complicated than that.  For instance, Acts is a summary overall and details Paul's journeys and the churches he started (Rome, Corinth, Phillipi, Galatia, Ephesis, Colossae, Thessolonia, and he also wrote Hebrews and Philimon.

So much of the basic information about Paul is in Acts, but then all of the Epistles are written back to the churches he started in the above locations. 

I guess what I am saying, is that it is important that scripture references scripture and that no verse really stands alone.  Took me a while to get that out.

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.  IMO, if we start at the first verse of Genesis and end at the 13th Article of Faith (the full text of scripture to Mormons), the clear message about baptism is that it is a required ordinance.  See the post I made just prior to this.

[Tobeloved]

1 minute ago, zil said:

Agree.  It seems clear that @Tobeloved is firmly convinced that baptism is not a necessary ordinance, and will not accept any interpretation of scripture that it is.  In contrast, faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints cannot believe anything other than that baptism is a necessary ordinance.  IMO, if understanding is sought, this is it in a nutshell; and the baptism discussion has reached the "going in circles" phase.

Just to be clear.

*  Baptism is not a mandatory part of salvation in Jesus Christ, which effects eternity.

*  Baptism is a command that we are commanded to do and that 96% of Christians have done.

I just don't want anyone mis-stating what I said.

 

The overall point is that salvation is gotten by the person (individual) and what Jesus Christ gives them (ie.. Justification, Holy Spirit, death to sin, ect).  Period.

But baptism is very, very good and commanded of us.

Is that clear?

[zil]

1 minute ago, Tobeloved said:

Just to be clear.

*  Baptism is not a mandatory part of salvation in Jesus Christ, which effects eternity.

*  Baptism is a command that we are commanded to do and that 96% of Christians have done.

I just don't want anyone mis-stating what I said.

 

The overall point is that salvation is gotten by the person (individual) and what Jesus Christ gives them (ie.. Justification, Holy Spirit, death to sin, ect).  Period.

But baptism is very, very good and commanded of us.

Is that clear?

Perfectly.  And I would hope it's also clear that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that baptism is a required ordinance for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of God.  Thus, understanding and impasse.  At this point, why not agree that we understand each other, we interpret scripture differently, and we are not interested in being convinced that the other interpretation might be the correct one?  Then we move on to another topic (if desired).

[Just_A_Guy]

1 hour ago, Tobeloved said:

Now this is a great verse.  Because when we are saved by Jesus Christ He sends us His indwelling Holy Spirit, forever.  It is our seal of the New Covenant, God's promise to us (not our promise, but God's) UNTIL the Day of Redemption (which is after death).  The Holy Spirit indwelling a believer is part of (our down payment) of our inheritance in Christ that we are His heirs as well as co-heirs of the Father.

If you go back to the text I wrote (earlier) in Romans 5 and 6 you will see the Holy Spirit as part of our  salvation.

Absolutely.  Mormonism tends to focus on the "born of water" aspect of that particular verse, but your post is what Mormonism refers to when it lists "laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost" as one of the "first principles and ordinances of the Gospel" (4th Article of Faith).

Edited April 23, 2016 by Just_A_Guy

[Tobeloved]

8 minutes ago, zil said:

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.  IMO, if we start at the first verse of Genesis and end at the 13th Article of Faith (the full text of scripture to Mormons), the clear message about baptism is that it is a required ordinance.  See the post I made just prior to this.

Yes.  I understand.

This is a very clear difference between much of the Protestant church and Mormonism.

But the point I was trying to make is that baptism by water is not in Romans 5, 6, or 7 which is details of salvation.  So the lack of it (water baptism) in Romans is also key to my position as these three chapters talk about the details of salvation w/ no water baptism.

[zil]

2 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

But the point I was trying to make is that baptism by water is not in [non-LDS interpretations of] Romans 5, 6, or 7 which is details of salvation.  So the lack of it (water baptism) in Romans is also key to my position as these three chapters talk about the details of salvation w/ no water baptism.

My insertion into your statement is the point I'm trying to make (right now).

[LeSellers]

10 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Ritual baths were always part of Jewish life in the Old Testament.  That is very different from one act, being a baptism.

When we recall Paul's words that the Mosaic Law was a schoolmaster to bring them (the Jews) to Christ, it is clear that the Gospel according to Moses had the same purpose and many of the same features of the Gospel that Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Peter taught.

Yes, indeed, ritual baths were an integral part of the Church of Jesus Christ whether before His ministry or after. They served the same function as baptism, and had the same element, water. The Holy Ghost operated in ancient Israel just as He acted at the turn of the era and today.

10 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I would like to stick with the original KJV.  Going all around with all these Bibles will really confuse you.

Okeh, if you insist. Here's John 3:5 from the "original KJV:"

Quote

 

Iesus answered, Uerily, verily I say vnto thee, except a man be borne of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God.

 

It doesn't seem to add much, in my opinion.

Consulting other translations helps understand what the prophets who wrote the Bible were saying. In Italian, there is a saying: traduttore traditore: the translator is a traitor. I like getting into the original languages, but my Hebrew isn't as good as my Greek, and my Greek is marginal at best. So reading the same thing in many translations, in English, French, Italian, German, Spanish, and Latin, makes it a little easier to get the original intent.

So, if I turn to alternative translations, the point is not to confuse, but to enlighten.

As to which translations most Christians use, I really do not care too much. I'm not seeking common ground as much as I am seeking understanding. Many, most, modern translations are slanted to a specific set of tenets. You may think that the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is unreliable, and I agree. But it is no more subjective than some of the others you mentioned.

Lehi

[Tobeloved]

24 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Back on the subject then...  For about 2 thousand years Christians have been trying to come to agreement on what the Gospel really is using the only the Bible (no matter what translation) and have clearly failed to come to any kind of agreement(see all the different Christian churches).  The idea that we here on the forums as different groups might do what Christaindom has failed to do for thousands of years seems a rather vain hope.  The best we can hope for is to agree to disagree about how we interpret the passages.

I have heard that prospective, yet I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the Mormon church has had a lot of splinters and offshoots in only about 160 years.

Such as:

List of Latter Day Saint movement churches

 

Era of Joseph Smith

Joseph Smith's original church,^[4] and those bodies which broke with him during his lifetime.

Original church within movement

The original organization, founded by Joseph Smith in 1830, later called the Church of the Latter Day Saints and then Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.^[7][8]

Name	Organized by	Date	Current status	Notes
Church of Christ[4]	Joseph Smith	April 6, 1830	Smith's original organization; multiple sects currently claim to be its true successor	In 1834, official name changed to "Church of the Latter Day Saints". In 1838, official name changed again to "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints".[7][8] Unofficial names included Church of God and Church of Jesus Christ.[9]

Churches that separated from Smith's organization prior to 1844

Other small churches formed on the basis of disagreements with Smith prior to his murder in 1844 (including church established by William Law within 1844), all of which are now defunct.

Church name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Pure Church of Christ[10]	Wycam Clark	1831	Church of Christ	Defunct	First schismatic sect in the Latter Day Saint movement.
Independent Church[11]	– Hoton[12]	1832	Church of Christ	Defunct	Little is known about this second schismatic sect apart from the date of establishment, the surname of its founder, and that Hoton denounced Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.[12]
Church of Christ[4]	Ezra Booth	1836	Church of the Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Taught that Joseph Smith was not a prophet, and the Book of Mormon was not scripture.
Church of Christ[13]	Warren Parrish	1837	Church of the Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Also referred to as the Church of Christ (Parrishite). Believed that Smith was a "fallen prophet". Rejected the Book of Mormon and parts of the Bible.
Alston Church[10]	Isaac Russell	1839	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Taught that the Latter Day Saints should remain in Missouri, and not emigrate to Illinois.
Church of Christ[4]	William Chubby	Late 1830s	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Established with the special mission of ministering to African Americans.
Church of Jesus Christ, the Bride, the Lamb's Wife[10]	George M. Hinkle	1840	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Taught that Smith was not a prophet, and the Book of Mormon was not scripture.
Church of Christ[4]	Hiram Page	1842	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Little is known concerning this sect, except that its founder was one of the Eight Witnesses to the Book of Mormon's golden plates
True Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints[10]	William Law	1844	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Opposed plural marriage; published the Nauvoo Expositor. Charges levied against Smith over the destruction of this periodical led to his assassination.

Lineage of Brigham Young

Sometimes called "Rocky Mountain Saints," "Brighamites," or "Mormons", tracing their leadership or influence through Brigham Young.

LDS Church

By far the largest and best known Latter Day Saint church, which is colloquially, but imprecisely, referred to as the "Mormon Church".

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[4][14]	Brigham Young and Quorum of the Twelve	1844 (trust reorganized); 1851[15] (incorporated)	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	15 million members as of 2013[16]	The largest Latter Day Saint denomination. Headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah. Often colloquially referred to as the Mormon Church. Adherents are popularly called Mormons or Latter-day Saints. Resulted from Latter Day Saints that followed Brigham Young after succession crisis. Practiced plural marriage until it was discontinued in 1890. Disincorporated in 1877 by the Edmunds–Tucker Act, reorganized in 1923 as the Corporation of the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

LDS-derived churches upholding polygamy after the Manifesto of 1890

 

Main article: Mormon fundamentalism

Churches that believe they are strictly following the revelations and teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, including the practice of plural marriage, which was discontinued by the LDS Church in the late-19th century after the Manifesto.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Council of Friends[17]	Lorin C. Woolley	1920s	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Multiple sects claim to be true successor	Also known as the Priesthood Council, this group was originally headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah, and the Short Creek Community. One of the earliest Mormon fundamentalist groups, originating at end of plural marriage in LDS Church. Later splintered into several groups, particularly upon death of Joseph W. Musser in 1954. Most modern Mormon fundamentalist groups may be traced back to this organization.
Latter Day Church of Christ[18]	Elden Kingston	1935[18]	Council of Friends[17]	Roughly 2,000 members	Headquartered in Davis County, Utah. Commonly known as the "Kingston clan" and the "Davis County Cooperative Society".
Apostolic United Brethren[18]	Rulon C. Allred	1954	Council of Friends	Approximately 10,000 members (1998)[19]	Headquarters in Bluffdale, Utah. Organized during schism between two groups over issue of presiding authority between Rulon C. Allred and Leroy S. Johnson, upon death of Joseph W. Musser.[18]
Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints[18]	Leroy S. Johnson	1954	Council of Friends	8,000–10,000 members[20]	Traditionally headquartered in Colorado City, Arizona, with a community of roughly 700 members near Eldorado, Texas. Also called "FLDS Church" and is the largest group of Latter Day Saints who practice plural marriage and Mormon fundamentalism.
Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times[18]	Joel F. LeBaron	1955	Apostolic United Brethren[21]	Precise continuity unknown, several hundred believers' following one or another putative successors to sect leadership	Headquartered in Colonia Lebaron, Mexico[22] Established in northern Mexico, this group claims a priesthood line of authority through Benjamin F. Johnson, a member of the Council of Fifty.
Church of the Firstborn[23]	Ross Wesley LeBaron	1955	Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times	Defunct	Headquartered in Salt lake City, Utah. Within months of the organization of the Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times, Ross LeBaron broke with his brothers and formed his own sect calling it simply, “"The Church of the Firstborn." Ross believed he was sent to prepare the way for the One Mighty and Strong, who would be "an Indian prophet"[24] Three notable early followers were Fred Collier, Tom Green, and Robert Black.[23]
Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly[25][26]	Alex Joseph	1974[26]	Apostolic United Brethren	Approximately 400 headquartered in Big Water, Utah	In conjunction with the Church of Jesus Christ in Solemn Assembly, Alex Joseph group created the Confederate Nations of Israel in 1977, a Hybrid church–political organization patterned after the Council of Fifty. Members can be from any religious denomination or atheist. Around one-quarter of members practice plural marriage.
Church of the First Born of the Lamb of God[18]	Ervil LeBaron	1972	Church of the Firstborn of the Fulness of Times	Current status unknown, may continue in LeBaron family in Los Molinos, Baja California	Ervil LeBaron split with his brother, Joel F. LeBaron in 1972. Ervil then ordered his brother Joel killed in 1972, and Apostolic United Brethren leader Rulon C. Allred killed in 1977. LeBaron was extradited to the United States and sentenced to life in prison where he died in 1981.
Church of the New Covenant in Christ[10]	John W. Bryant	1975	Apostolic United Brethren	Headquartered in Salem, Oregon	Previously called the "Church of Christ Patriarchal" and the "Evangelical Church of Christ". One of Bryant's estranged wives says Bryant converted temple ordinances into sexual rites and that he authorized a type of "free love" among the members.
Righteous Branch of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[18]	Gerald Peterson, Sr.	1978	Apostolic United Brethren	Approximately 100-200 members. Headquartered in St. George, Utah.	This small group of about 100–200 people was founded by Gerald Peterson Sr. They claim Gerald Peterson Sr. was the rightful successor to Rulon C. Allred and Spencer W. Kimball. They claim Allred and others, including the God and Jesus, visited Peterson, who held and exercised all priesthood responsibilities and keys.
School of the Prophets[10][27]	Robert C. Crossfield	1982	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Headquartered in Salem, Utah	In 1968 Crossfield published the Book of Onias which, among other things, condemned many LDS Church leaders and was excommunicated in 1972.[28] Through associations, and initially well received, with Mormon fundamentalists in Creston, British Columbia, Canada, in 1982 Crossfield established his own "School of the Prophets", presided over by a President and six counselors.[28]Ron and Dan Lafferty, convicted of the 1984 murder of their brother's wife and infant daughter, served as counselors in the Provo, Utah, School of the Prophets in 1984.[27]
Centennial Park[18]	Marion Hammon and Alma Timpson	1984	Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints	Roughly 1,500 members[18]	Also known as the "Second Ward". Organized by group who broke from Leroy S. Johnson over questions regarding presiding authority.[18]
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Kingdom of God[18][29]	Frank Naylor and Ivan Neilsen	1990	Centennial Park	200–300 members. Headquartered in Bluffdale, Utah[30]	Also known as the "Naylor group" and the "Third Ward".[18] Organized by group who broke from Centennial Park over conflicts in the leadership of Alma Timpson.
True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days[18]	James D. Harmston	1994	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	300–500 members (2004)[31] Headquartered in Manti, Utah.	Also called "TLC Church" and formed independent of the Woolley or the LeBaron priesthood lineages.
The Church of the Firstborn and the General Assembly of Heaven[32]	Terrill R. Dalton	2001	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Currently headquartered in Fromberg, Montana	Originally organized in Magna, Utah, by former members of the LDS Church. Practice polygamy and the law of consecration. Dalton purports to be the Holy Ghost and the Father of Jesus.[33]
Church of Jesus Christ (Original Doctrine) Inc.[34]	Winston Blackmore	2002	Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Headquartered in Bountiful, British Columbia with approximately 700 members	Also known as the Blackmore/Bountiful Community, this schism from the FLDS Church occurred when church president Warren Jeffs excommunicated Blackmore, causing the community of Bountiful to split nearly in half.

Left-of-center LDS-derived churches

The defunct Godbeites and a few other small churches that broke with the LDS Church to pursue a more liberal, inclusive, or rationalist theology.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
The Church of Zion[35]	William S. Godbe	1868	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Defunct	Also known as "Godbeites".
United Order Family of Christ[36]	David-Edward Desmond	1966	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Lasted until at least 1973, probably until 1974.	Founded in Denver, Colorado; the church was founded specifically for young gay men only, ages 18 to 30; members practiced the United Order.
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ[36]	Antonio A. Feliz	1985	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Dissolved in 2010.	Majority of members were LGBT. Commonly called the "Gay Mormon Church" or the "Liberal Mormon Church". Originally called the "Church of Jesus Christ of All Latter-day Saints".

Additional churches claiming lineage through Brigham Young and/or founded in the U.S. Intermountain West

Several small churches rooted in Mormonism; formed under the belief that their leader was inspired to restore a new religious tradition in the mold of Joseph Smith

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Church of the Potter Christ[37]	Arnold Potter	1857	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Defunct	Potter wore a long beard and white robes; his followers wore black robes; followers emigrated from California to Council Bluffs, Iowa, in 1861.
Church of the Firstborn (Morrisite)[38]	Joseph Morris	1861	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Assumed defunct	Remnants of this organization survived into the mid-20th century. Involved in the Morrisite War; believe in reincarnation. Morris claimed to be the successor of James Strang, though his organization broke from the LDS, not the Strangite, church.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Gibsonite)[39]	Walter M. Gibson	1861	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Defunct	Organized in Pacific Islands; sold leadership offices to native peoples; gathering place established on Lanai, Hawaii.
Kingdom of Heaven[40]	William W. Davies	1866	Church of the Firstborn (Morrisite)	Defunct	Lived a communal life near Walla Walla, Washington, from 1867 to 1881.
Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Most High[41]	John R. Eardley	1882	Church of the Firstborn (Morrisite)	Disbanded in 1969	The last known surviving remnant of the "Morrisites".
Order of Enoch[42]	James Brighouse	1884	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and Church of the Firstborn (Morrisite)	Continues into the 21st century	Believe in reincarnation; rejected plural marriage; believe that Jesus reincarnated as Brighouse and again in 1909 as Dr. Dahesh and that the millennium will commence in the 24th century.
Third Convention[43]	Abel Páez	1936	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Continued into the 21st century[44]	Formed by Abel Páez and a dissident group of Mexican Latter-day Saints who broke away from the main body of church authority in 1936 over a dispute about local governance and autonomy of the church in Mexico.
House of Aaron[40][45]	Maurice L. Glendenning	1943[45]	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Less than 1,000 members	Also called "Aaronic Order" and the "Order of Aaron". Religious researchers have categorized The House of Aaron as part of the Latter Day Saint movement, which this sect disputes.[40][45][46]
Zion's Order, Inc.[40]	Merl Kilgore	1951	Aaronic Order and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Headquartered in Mansfield, Missouri; approximately 100 members	Formerly known as Zion's Order of the Sons of Levi; use all of the scriptures of the LDS Church except section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants, plus 650 revelations to Kilgore.
Perfected Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter-day Saints[40]	William C. Conway	1955	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Unknown	Also called "Restored Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ of Immaculate Latter-day Saints"; Conway claimed to be the reincarnation of Moroni and to have been visited by a reincarnation of Joseph Smith.
Church of Jesus Christ (Bullaite)[40][47]	Art Bulla	1983	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Headquartered in Salt Lake City, Utah	Bulla taught other Latter-day Saints that he was the "One Mighty and Strong" that Joseph Smith prophesied would come to set the church in order. Bulla was interviewed in the anti-Mormon movie The God Makers II with the title "Mormon Prophet" under his name.
Latter Day Church of Jesus Christ[48]	Matthew P. Gill	2007	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints	Headquartered in Derbyshire, England	Met informally as "The Latter Day Church of Christ" until formal organization. Added the Book of Jeraneck to scriptural canon.[49]

Other lineages

Those churches rejecting Brigham Young's leadership, in favor of some other claimant. These adherents are occasionally referred to, collectively, as "Prairie Saints."

Reorganized Church and other followers of Joseph Smith III ("Josephites")

The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and related churches tracing their leadership through Joseph Smith III.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Community of Christ[50]	Joseph Smith III	1860	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; some early members came from Strangite church	More than 250,000 members as of 2006[51]	Second-largest Latter Day Saint denomination. Headquartered in Independence, Missouri. Previously known as the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" (RLDS Church); organized by Joseph Smith III in 1860.
Church of the Christian Brotherhood[52]	R. C. Evans	1918	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Split with RLDS Church due to their belief that Joseph Smith practiced plural marriage; Evans published a book documenting evidence that Smith was a polygamist, then went on to reject most of the tenets of Mormonism.
Church of Jesus Christ Restored[53]	Stanley King	1960s	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Headquartered in Ontario, Canada	Fundamentalist church that split from the RLDS Church and instituted polygamy and the United Order; has about 40 members
Church of Jesus Christ (Toneyite)[40]	Forrest Toney	1980	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Left RLDS Church in 1980; claimed to be "Elijah and only prophet" of his organization.
Independent RLDS / Restoration Branches[54]	Various local leaders of the RLDS church	1980s	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	As of 1993, 15,000–30,000 sympathizers who yet retained membership in the RLDS Church (Community of Christ);[55] as of 2011, c. 10,000 members attending several hundred distinct congregations.[56]	Affiliated branches and study groups, with each branch relatively autonomous and the movement as a whole centered in Independence, Missouri.[54][57] RLDS Church branches that became independent of the RLDS Church individually throughout the 1980s, due to opposition to changes in church doctrines and practices. Most priesthood holders of these branches soon became affiliated with the "Conference of Restoration Elders". At a three-day conference in November 2005, the "Joint Conference of Restoration Branches" was formed,[58] which had 6,000 to 7,000 members as of 2010.[59] Members consider themselves members of the [historical] RLDS Church, in a direct line of succession from those who dissented following doctrinal changes roughly coinciding with the church's name change to Community of Christ.[60]
Church of Jesus Christ Restored 1830[40]	Nolan W. Glauner	Mid-1980s	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Members in Missouri and Africa; headquartered in Tarkio, Missouri	Regards Wallace B. Smith as a "fallen prophet" of the RLDS Church for his opening the priesthood to women and for choosing to build the Independence Temple as opposed to the city of Zion.
Church of Christ[61]	David B. Clark	1985	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Headquartered in Oak Grove, Missouri	Also known as "Lion of God Ministry". Clark broke from the RLDS Church in November 1985. In May 1987, Clark began to issue a newsletter, "The Return". Group adheres closely to the King James Version of the Bible and "The Record of the Nephites" [Book of Mormon], but does not consider other Mormon scripture to be authoritative. They keep annual feasts, including Passover, Pentecost, Tabernacles, etc.[61]
Church of Jesus Christ (Zion's Branch)[4]	John and Robert Cato, among others	1986	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	200 or so members; headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Largely composed of former members of the RLDS Church who oppose what they consider to be recent doctrinal innovations, especially the giving of the priesthood to women in 1984.
Lundgren Group[62]	Jeffrey Lundgren[63]	1988	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct; appropriately 20 followers; headquartered in Kirtland, Ohio [64]	The sect broke off from the RLDS Church when Lundgren dismissed from the church on October 10, 1988. Lundgren was executed by the state of Ohio on October 24, 2006, for the murder of Dennis Avery and four of his family members.[64]
Restoration Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints[65]	Several RLDS entities	1991	Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Headquartered in Independence, Missouri	The church broke off from the Community of Christ because of its belief that women should not hold the priesthood.
Remnant Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints[66]	Frederick N. Larsen	2000	Independent RLDS / Restoration Branches[67]	1,000–2,000 members; headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Chiefly composed of former members of the RLDS Church who were part of the Independent RLDS / Restoration Branches.[67] They oppose what they consider to be recent doctrinal innovations, especially the passing of the church presidency to someone not descended from Joseph Smith (Larsen is a descendant of Smith through his grandson Frederick Madison Smith).[67]

Followers of Granville Hedrick ("Hedrickites")

The Church of Christ (Temple Lot) and related churches tracing their leadership through Granville Hedrick.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Church of Christ (Temple Lot)[68]	Granville Hedrick	1863	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints; some members from Gladdenites	5,000 members; headquartered on the Temple Lot in Independence, Missouri	Owns the Temple Lot; adherents commonly referred to as "Hedrickites."
Church of Christ (Fettingite)[69]	Otto Fetting	1929	Church of Christ (Temple Lot)	Sect divided into various factions	A denomination which split with the Temple Lot church over reported revelations from John the Baptist to its founder, Otto Fetting; adopted seventh day sabbatarianism under Apostle S.T. Bronson in 1950s.
Church of Christ at Halley's Bluff[70]	Thomas B. Nerren and E. E. Long	1932	Church of Christ (Temple Lot)	Headquartered at Schell City, Missouri; less than 100 members	Members originally believed Otto Fetting's revelations but did not join the Church of Christ (Fettingite). Formally named "Church of Christ at Zion's Retreat" until a 1972 schism in which Dan Gayman led most of its followers away to his Church of Israel.
Church of Christ (Restored)[71]	A.C. DeWolf	ca. 1937	Church of Christ (Fettingite)	Louisiana, Mississippi, Missouri;approx. 450 members	Split from Fettingite organization in late 1930s when that sect initially accepted William Draves' "messages"; claims to be the true continuation of Fetting's church. Non-sabbatarian.
Church of Christ with the Elijah Message[72]	Otto Fetting and William Draves	1943	Church of Christ (Fettingite)[69]	c. 12,500 members worldwide as of 1987.[73][74] Headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Split with the Church of Christ (Fettingite) when that sect rejected revelations from John the Baptist given to its founder, William Draves, following the death of Otto Fetting.
Church of Christ (Hancock)[4][75]	Pauline Hancock	1946	Church of Christ (Temple Lot)	Defunct as of 1984	First Latter Day Saint denomination to be established by a woman; accepted KJV Bible and Book of Mormon only; later rejected Book of Mormon and dissolved itself in 1984. Among its former members were Jerald and Sandra Tanner, opponents of the Latter Day Saint movement and founders of the Utah Lighthouse Ministry.
Church of Christ[10]	Howard Leighton-Floyd and H. H. Burt	1965	Church of Christ with the Elijah Message	Around 35 members	Leighton-Floyd and Burt split with the Church of Christ with the Elijah Message during the reincorporation of that church under its present name. Leighton-Floyd left shortly after the formation, with Burt assumed leadership of the group. The membership is centered on an agricultural cooperative near Holden, Missouri.[76]
Church of Israel[40]	Dan Gayman	1972	Church of Christ at Halley's Bluff	Headquartered in Missouri	Name was "Church of Our Christian Heritage" until incorporation in 1981. The church has been accused of being a Christian Identity church, a charge which is denied by Gayman. Few Latter Day Saint beliefs or practices remain in the church.
The Church of Christ With the Elijah Message, The Assured Way of the Lord, Inc.[77]	Leonard Draves	2004	Church of Christ with the Elijah Message	Headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Split from the Church of Christ with the Elijah Message, Inc., which in turn split from the Church of Christ With the Elijah Message; founders claim that they are the legitimate continuation of William Draves' organization.

Followers of Sidney Rigdon or William Bickerton ("Bickertonites")

Churches tracing their leadership through Sidney Rigdon or William Bickerton.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion[4][5]	Sidney Rigdon	1844	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Dissolved by 1847	Originally also used the name "Church of Christ". Also known as Rigdonites.
The Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)[5]	William Bickerton	1862	Organized by former members of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Children of Zion (Rigdonites), by then defunct	19,029 as of Dec. 31, 2012;[78] headquartered in Monongahela, Pennsylvania	Adherents commonly referred to as Bickertonites (church actively opposes use of this term).
Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)[40]	Half of the Bickertonite Quorum of Twelve Apostles	1907	Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)	Defunct	Dispute over nature of life in the millennium split Bickertonite Quorum of the Twelve in two; later merged with the Primitive Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite).
Primitive Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)[40]	James Caldwell	1914	Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite)	Defunct	Rejected the First Presidency as a valid leadership organization of the church; later merged with the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ (Bickertonite).

Followers of Alpheus Cutler ("Cutlerites")

The Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite) and related churches tracing their leadership through Alpheus Cutler.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)[6]	Alpheus Cutler	1853	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Approximately 12 members (2010);[79] headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Adherents commonly called "Cutlerites"; practice "United Order"; retains Nauvoo-era Temple endowment and Baptism for the Dead.
True Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)[80]	Clyde Fletcher	1953	Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)	Never more than 10; headquartered in Clitherall, Minnesota	Split from Cutlerites over presidential succession issue; church folded with death of its founder in 1969 and schism was subsequently healed.
Restored Church of Jesus Christ[40]	Eugene O. Walton	1980	Church of Jesus Christ (Cutlerite)	25 members; headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Split from Cutlerites when they rejected Walton's claim to be the "One Mighty and Strong".

Followers of James J. Strang ("Strangites")

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite) and related churches tracing their leadership through James Strang.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)[4]	James J. Strang	1844	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	A few hundred members; headquartered in Voree (now Burlington), Wisconsin	Currently split between proponents and opponents of incorporation in 1961. Anti-incorporation factions headquartered in Shreveport, Louisiana and Independence, Missouri
Church of Christ (Aaron Smith)[81]	Aaron Smith	1846	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)	Defunct	Short-lived sect formed in Voree, Wisconsin.
Church of the Messiah[82]	George J. Adams	1861	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)	Defunct	Led followers from Maine to Palestine; attempt to establish mission there failed.
Holy Church of Jesus Christ[40]	Alexandre R. Caffiaux	1964	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)	Defunct	Caffiaux claimed to be the rightful successor to James J. Strang. Church headquartered in France.
Church of Jesus Christ (Drewite)[40]	Theron Drew	1965	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)	Extant; one congregation led by Richard Drew, Theron's son	Drew organized the church after being excommunicated from the Strangite church, on account of Drew's promotion of Merl Kilgore as the "One Mighty and Strong" and a potential successor to James Strang.
True Church of Jesus Christ Restored[83]	David Roberts	1974	Church of Christ with the Elijah Message and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Strangite)	Headquartered in Independence, Missouri	Difficult to categorize; Roberts claimed to be Strang's successor.

Additional Latter Day Saint churches (usually headquartered in U.S. east of the Rocky Mountains)

Other "Prairie Saint" branches of the movement, such as the Church of Christ (Whitmerite), none of which is known to be extant.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Church of Christ (Wightite)[84]	Lyman Wight	1844	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Extant until around 1858	Wight rejected the claims of leadership made by Brigham Young, William Smith, and James Strang. He moved a group of Latter Day Saints to the central Texas frontier. He accepted Joseph Smith III as his father's successor, but did not live long enough to join the RLDS Church (though most of his followers later did).
Church of Christ (Whitmerite)[10]	William E. M'Lellin and David Whitmer	1847 and 1871	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Extant until around 1925	William E. McLellin claimed that Joseph Smith had designated David Whitmer, one of the Three Witnesses, as his successor. By 1925, most remaining members of the Whitmerite church had united with the Church of Christ (Temple Lot).
Church of Christ (Brewsterite)[10]	James C. Brewster and Hazen Aldrich	1848	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Published a periodical entitled The Olive Branch.
The Bride, the Lamb's Wife[85]	Jacob Syfritt	1848	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Syfritt claimed to have been taken to heaven to converse with Joseph Smith, who designated him as his true successor.
Congregation of Jehovah's Presbytery of Zion[10]	Charles B. Thompson	1848	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Defunct	Also called Baneemyites and Conjespresites. Thompson claimed to be "Baneemy" mentioned in The Doctrine and Covenants, D&C 105:27. Said the church had been rejected by God following Joseph Smith's death, and he had been called to renew the priesthood among the gentiles.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Gladdenite)[10]	Gladden Bishop	1851	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints	Dissolved after Bishop's death in 1865	Many members later helped to form the Church of Christ (Temple Lot).
Pentecostal Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[86]	Mike Bethel	1994	The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints[87]	Extant as of 1998; status currently unknown	The sect holds to the canonicity of the Bible and the Book of Mormon, but does not accept other texts in the Latter Day Saint movement such as the Pearl of Great Price and Doctrine and Covenants.[87]

Spontaneous or unknown lineage

Those sects which originated independent from other organizations and do not trace their doctrinal or priesthood lineage to any 19th-century Latter Day Saint factions, but still hold Latter Day Saint beliefs.

Name	Organized by	Date	Split off / Continuation of	Current status	Notes
Independent Latter Day Saint congregations in Nigeria[88]	Anie D. Obot	ca. 1953	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (with LDS Church influences)	Extant until around 1978	After LDS Church missionaries visited the town of Uyo in 1953, Obot decided to form unauthorized branches of the church in Nigeria and wrote for more information to church headquarters in Salt Lake City, Utah. However, due to Nigerian government visas restrictions and the absence of church leadership, these branches deviated from LDS Church doctrine. This included some practicing of polygamy and establishing their own black priesthood hierarchy, both of which were prohibited at the time by church doctrine.
Independent Latter Day Saint congregations in Ghana[89]	Joseph W. B. Johnson	1964	Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (with LDS and RLDS influences)	Extant until around 1978	Upon receiving a copy of the Book of Mormon, Johnson started "Latter day Saint" congregations in Ghana independent from any Latter Day Saint sect. In 1976, Johnson went to find "The Mormons" (i.e., the LDS Church) and found the RLDS Church instead. However, no further contact was established with the RLDS Church. Upon the announcement of the 1978 Revelation of Priesthood, allowing those of black African descent into the priesthood, Johnson and most of his group were baptized into the LDS Church.[89]
Apostolic Divine Church of Ghana[89]	Cape Coast group of the independent Latter-Day Saint congregations in Ghana	1976	Independent Latter-Day Saint congregations in Ghana	Extant for only a few months	The Cape Coast group of the independent Latter Day Saint congregations in Ghana (Johnson) schismed when ongoing contact was not established with the LDS Church or RLDS Church in 1976. Some of the individuals in this group formed the Apostolic Divine Church of Ghana, however, this sect lasted only a few months.[89]

 

With that, I find it hard to say what is said about Christian denominations.

[Just_A_Guy]

5 minutes ago, zil said:

Perfectly.  And I would hope it's also clear that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believe that baptism is a required ordinance for exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom of God.  Thus, understanding and impasse.  At this point, why not agree that we understand each other, we interpret scripture differently, and we are not interested in being convinced that the other interpretation might be the correct one?  Then we move on to another topic (if desired).

What I THINK Tobeloved is saying, is that Jesus is the sole instrument of salvation.  We get baptized because He asks us to; but the rite has no mystical power independently of Christ--it derives its power from the fact that it is a divine commandment.

I can agree with that; I think the disagreement is that Mormons teach that Jesus requires **everyone** to get baptized via proper authority; whereas Tobeloved suggests that Jesus will save even an unbaptized person and that pretty much anyone who believes in Jesus has inherent authority to baptize.

[zil]

1 minute ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What I THINK Tobeloved is saying, is that Jesus is the sole instrument of salvation.  We get baptized because He asks us to; but the rite has no mystical power independently of Christ--it derives its power from the fact that it is a divine commandment.

I can agree with that; I think the disagreement is that Mormons teach that Jesus requires **everyone** to get baptized via proper authority; whereas Tobeloved suggests that Jesus will save even an unbaptized person and that pretty much anyone who believes in Jesus has inherent authority to baptize.

Thank you!  That's a reading of things I had not seen, and makes a lot of sense, and shows whopping tons of common ground.  (I love it when someone opens my eyes to increased understanding.)

[LeSellers]

22 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

There is something about the Bible that many people do not see if they do not study it fairly well.  It is a common perception by many that the Bible reads like a novel.  You  go straight through, you start at the beginning and read to the end.

And, for some reason, you think that we Saints do not know this? Our eight-year-olds are taught this in Primary.

23 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I guess what I am saying, is that it is important that scripture references scripture and that no verse really stands alone.  Took me a while to get that out.

And that's why you cannot rely solely on Romans to define what salvation requires. You have to read First Peter, too.

Lehi

[LeSellers]

10 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Ritual baths were always part of Jewish life in the Old Testament.  That is very different from one act, being a baptism.

When we recall Paul's words that the Mosaic Law was a schoolmaster to bring them (the Jews) to Christ, it is clear that the Gospel according to Moses had the same purpose and many of the same features of the Gospel that Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Peter taught.

Yes, indeed, ritual baths were an integral part of the Church of Jesus Christ whether before His ministry or after. They served the same function as baptism, and had the same element, water. The Holy Ghost operated in ancient Israel just as He acted at the turn of the era and today.

10 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I would like to stick with the original KJV.  Going all around with all these Bibles will really confuse you.

Okeh, if you insist. Here's John 3:5 from the "original KJV:"

Quote

 

Iesus answered, Uerily, verily I say vnto thee, except a man be borne of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdome of God.

 

It doesn't seem to add much, in my opinion.

Consulting other translations helps understand what the prophets who wrote the Bible were saying. In Italian, there is a saying: traduttore traditore: the translator is a traitor. I like getting into the original languages, but my Hebrew isn't as good as my Greek, and my Greek is marginal at best. So reading the same thing in many translations, in English, French, Italian, German, Spanish, and Latin, makes it a little easier to get the original intent.

So, if I turn to alternative translations, the point is not to confuse, but to enlighten.

As to which translations most Christians use, I really do not care too much. I'm not seeking common ground as much as I am seeking understanding. Many, most, modern translations are slanted to a specific set of tenets. You may think that the Jehovah's Witnesses' New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures is unreliable, and I agree. But it is no more subjective than some of the others you mentioned.

Lehi

[Tobeloved]

4 minutes ago, Just_A_Guy said:

What I THINK Tobeloved is saying, is that Jesus is the sole instrument of salvation.  We get baptized because He asks us to; but the rite has no mystical power independently of Christ--it derives its power from the fact that it is a divine commandment.

I can agree with that; I think the disagreement is that Mormons teach that Jesus requires **everyone** to get baptized via proper authority; whereas Tobeloved suggests that Jesus will save even an unbaptized person and that pretty much anyone who believes in Jesus has inherent authority to baptize.

YES!   ^^  This

[LeSellers]

22 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

There is something about the Bible that many people do not see if they do not study it fairly well.  It is a common perception by many that the Bible reads like a novel.  You  go straight through, you start at the beginning and read to the end.

And, for some reason, you think that we Saints do not know this? Our eight-year-olds are taught this in Primary.

23 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I guess what I am saying, is that it is important that scripture references scripture and that no verse really stands alone.  Took me a while to get that out.

And that's why you cannot rely solely on Romans to define what salvation requires. You have to read First Peter, too.

Lehi

[Tobeloved]

1 minute ago, LeSellers said:

And that's why you cannot rely solely on Romans to define what salvation requires. You have to read First Peter, too.

Lehi

I did not say that I rely on Romans for everything.  What I said is with the scripture I've read and with Romans 5,6,7 I do not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Just_A_Guy actually summed up what I believe very well.

 

But that's ok, we disagree on baptism with water.  But I find it interesting that you gave Titus 3:5 as a proof text when that was about Holy Spirit baptism which I think confused me a bit.  

[LeSellers]

11 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I have heard that prospective, yet I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the Mormon church has had a lot of splinters and offshoots in only about 160 years.

What do you think this shows?

There were many offshoots of Christianity by ad 200, as well. In fact, there were splinters in the late I. That's why Paul and Peter, and Jude, and James wrote their epistles: it was their vain effort to stop the on-going apostasy they saw all around them.

Lehi

[Tobeloved]

1 minute ago, LeSellers said:

And that's why you cannot rely solely on Romans to define what salvation requires. You have to read First Peter, too.

Lehi

I did not say that I rely on Romans for everything.  What I said is with the scripture I've read and with Romans 5,6,7 I do not believe that baptism is a requirement for salvation.

Just_A_Guy actually summed up what I believe very well.

 

But that's ok, we disagree on baptism with water.  But I find it interesting that you gave Titus 3:5 as a proof text when that was about Holy Spirit baptism which I think confused me a bit.  

[Tobeloved]

17 minutes ago, zil said:

My insertion into your statement is the point I'm trying to make (right now).

Is there a LDS version of Romans 5, 6, and 7?

Can you give me the url to it so I can read it?  Thanks.

[LeSellers]

11 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I have heard that prospective, yet I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the Mormon church has had a lot of splinters and offshoots in only about 160 years.

What do you think this shows?

There were many offshoots of Christianity by ad 200, as well. In fact, there were splinters in the late I. That's why Paul and Peter, and Jude, and James wrote their epistles: it was their vain effort to stop the on-going apostasy they saw all around them.

Lehi

[zil]

5 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

Is there a LDS version of Romans 5, 6, and 7?

Can you give me the url to it so I can read it?  Thanks.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/rom?lang=eng

....list of chapters in the book of Romans.

Added: I don't think it will change your interpretation (it's the KJV of the Bible, excepting footnotes).

Edited April 23, 2016 by zil

[Tobeloved]

44 minutes ago, estradling75 said:

Back on the subject then...  For about 2 thousand years Christians have been trying to come to agreement on what the Gospel really is using the only the Bible (no matter what translation) and have clearly failed to come to any kind of agreement(see all the different Christian churches).  

This is not really accurate.

Most people are very clear on what the gospel is.  The gospel is the good news that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of the world.  That all can come to Him for the forgiveness of sin and be justified from all sin, through His shed blood on the cross. Jesus Christ being God, Himself sent down from heaven by the Father, 'fully man' and 'fully God'.  All who accept Jesus Christ gift of grace (because we cannot atone for our own sin) will live with Him for eternity as heirs of Jesus Christ and co-heirs to the Father, in Christ.

 

That is not a much debated thing.  That is standard Christianity 101.   Denominations do not exist from the above definition of the gospel.

 

Denominations are an entirely different thing and I'm not sure we want to get into that because it will be long.

[estradling75]

22 minutes ago, Tobeloved said:

I have heard that prospective, yet I believe (correct me if I am wrong) that the Mormon church has had a lot of splinters and offshoots in only about 160 years.

With that, I find it hard to say what is said about Christian denominations.

Indeed... thank you for proving my point...

If the LDS which is very recent, has had so many branches is so short of time..

What chance did the original Apostles have when we see their struggles to hold things together against the very same forces?  And yet you try so very hard to figure out what was really meant with documents have have about two thousand years of differing opinions and politics at play.

[Tobeloved]

10 minutes ago, LeSellers said:

What do you think this shows?

There were many offshoots of Christianity by ad 200, as well. In fact, there were splinters in the late I. That's why Paul and Peter, and Jude, and James wrote their epistles: it was their vain effort to stop the on-going apostasy they saw all around them.

Lehi

Someone brought up the different denominations in Christianity.  My point was that LDS has them too.

My second point is that I do not think most LDS really understand that Christianity is united of the basic tenants of our faith.

It is because we are united on the basic tenants of our faith that we can root out what is not Christian quickly, because to be a Christian one must believe in the basic tenants of the Christian faith.

 

So this splinter, denominations thing is made much bigger than it is.  And unless someone wants to get very hairy I would not want to discuss it.