estradling75 Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 18 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: The thing is though, is that these basic tenants of the Christian faith existed BEFORE Mormonism. So, they were not written to 'root some out" they were written as an agreement to the tenants of the Christian faith. So, how can you say they 'root you out'. Your prophet knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote his writings. I understand that... But do you understand how pointless and offensive it is to make the augment that someone that Claims and lives Christianity(to the best of their ability) is not Christian?... That is a discussion killer. The scripture are repeatly clear that the Lord works by calling prophets and Apostles (see Paul as an example) and yet the found of your tenant is not based on the writing of the Prophet and Apostles... it is based on politically charged set of councils... 8 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: Have you read what Jesus Himself told the disciples right before He died? It was NOT that there was some new revelation or an upgrade to the Christian church, it was there would be FALSE PROPHETS. The problem is is that nothing that LDS says about the Christian church happened. 1800 AD, years later there are I think 6 Billion Christians. None of the Biblical prophets ever prophesized about JS or what he said happened. I would think about that. I have thought about it... I have read the scriptures and the scripture are quite plan on God's pattern. The reason False Prophet are a danger is because Real Prophets are a thing. Take the Apostle Paul for example. After Christ did it work on the earth and establish twelve he felt it necessary to continue the process of showing up in person and calling people to do his work. The Apostle Paul fits quite nicely in with the Old testament pattern process of calling prophet and given them a charge to do the work. Yet in general Christianity seems to be very much in Denial of this inspire of clear evidence that it continued after Christ. As for there being no prophesy about Joseph Smith... none that you would accept, but to keep it simple....I would like you to name one person other then Christ who the bible prophecies of. Any prophecy about Peter... or Paul? If there were no prophecy about them does that mean they weren't really called of God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 18 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: The thing is though, is that these basic tenants of the Christian faith existed BEFORE Mormonism. So, they were not written to 'root some out" they were written as an agreement to the tenants of the Christian faith. So, how can you say they 'root you out'. Your prophet knew exactly what he was doing when he wrote his writings. I understand that... But do you understand how pointless and offensive it is to make the augment that someone that Claims and lives Christianity(to the best of their ability) is not Christian?... That is a discussion killer. The scripture are repeatly clear that the Lord works by calling prophets and Apostles (see Paul as an example) and yet the found of your tenant is not based on the writing of the Prophet and Apostles... it is based on politically charged set of councils... 8 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: Have you read what Jesus Himself told the disciples right before He died? It was NOT that there was some new revelation or an upgrade to the Christian church, it was there would be FALSE PROPHETS. The problem is is that nothing that LDS says about the Christian church happened. 1800 AD, years later there are I think 6 Billion Christians. None of the Biblical prophets ever prophesized about JS or what he said happened. I would think about that. I have thought about it... I have read the scriptures and the scripture are quite plan on God's pattern. The reason False Prophet are a danger is because Real Prophets are a thing. Take the Apostle Paul for example. After Christ did it work on the earth and establish twelve he felt it necessary to continue the process of showing up in person and calling people to do his work. The Apostle Paul fits quite nicely in with the Old testament pattern process of calling prophet and given them a charge to do the work. Yet in general Christianity seems to be very much in Denial of this inspire of clear evidence that it continued after Christ. As for there being no prophesy about Joseph Smith... none that you would accept, but to keep it simple....I would like you to name one person other then Christ who the bible prophecies of. Any prophecy about Peter... or Paul? If there were no prophecy about them does that mean they weren't really called of God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Just now, estradling75 said: I understand that... But do you understand how pointless and offensive it is to make the augment that someone that Claims and lives Christianity(to the best of their ability) is not Christian?... Serious question here. No slight intended, ok. How offensive do you think it is for Christians to be told our faith went into apostasy in the 1st Century and the faith has been lost for 1900 years? Then the AGREED upon tenants of the Christian faith are not what you believe but that you think you have a right to use a name that we have used since 300 AD? Now whose religion trampled on another's here? I could include much more, but I just want you to think about that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 15 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: The problem Lehi is your timeline. JS was clear that Christianity went into apostasy in the 1st Century. BUT Martin Luther was from the 15th and 16th Centuries. Furthermore, the reformation separated only Protestants and Catholics in that protestants wanted to have their own churches. IT DID NOT kill Christianity in anyway, because Protestants and Catholics still both exist and are both Christian. I am interested to hear your reply. If the Catholic church was not in apostasy, why was there a need for Luther and the reformation? Why splinter Christ's church? If the Catholic church was not in apostasy, why are you not Catholic? Note: the Catholic church has many beliefs you firmly disagree with such as: Sacred Tradition is on par with Scripture Baptism is required for salvation and the baptism of non-believing infants A priestly class is required to mediate between God and man to distribute His saving sacraments. So, I ask again: if the Catholic church is/was not in apostasy, why are you not Catholic? LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, estradling75 said: The scripture are repeatly clear that the Lord works by calling prophets and Apostles (see Paul as an example) and yet the found of your tenant is not based on the writing of the Prophet and Apostles... NO BIBLICAL PROPHET has ever changed or down played ONE WORD in the Bible. Keep in mind that this is one office of an individual church. So, if you think you can prove some apostle from the Bible who will change and add to scripture be my guest. I'll be waiting to read the Bible verses you come up with and maybe correct the context if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: Serious question here. No slight intended, ok. How offensive do you think it is for Christians to be told our faith went into apostasy in the 1st Century and the faith has been lost for 1900 years? Then the AGREED upon tenants of the Christian faith are not what you believe but that you think you have a right to use a name that we have used since 300 AD? Now whose religion trampled on another's here? I could include much more, but I just want you to think about that. LDS do not deny that other Christians devote their lives to Christ the best they know how. (Though many mainstream Christians deny this of LDS). What we do deny is that the Nicene Creed and such are true teachings, or that a document written of man should be upheld to the level of God-breathed scripture (let alone define scripture). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 5 minutes ago, estradling75 said: The scripture are repeatly clear that the Lord works by calling prophets and Apostles (see Paul as an example) and yet the found of your tenant is not based on the writing of the Prophet and Apostles... NO BIBLICAL PROPHET has ever changed or down played ONE WORD in the Bible. Keep in mind that this is one office of an individual church. 10 minutes ago, estradling75 said: As for there being no prophesy about Joseph Smith... none that you would accept, but to keep it simple....I would like you to name one person other then Christ who the bible prophecies of. Any prophecy about Peter... or Paul? If there were no prophecy about them does that mean they weren't really called of God? So, if you think you can prove some apostle from the Bible who will change and add to scripture be my guest. I'll be waiting to read the Bible verses you come up with and maybe correct the context if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, estradling75 said: As for there being no prophesy about Joseph Smith... none that you would accept, but to keep it simple....I would like you to name one person other then Christ who the bible prophecies of. Any prophecy about Peter... or Paul? If there were no prophecy about them does that mean they weren't really called of God? John the Baptist, Mary just to name two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Just now, Tobeloved said: NO BIBLICAL PROPHET has ever changed or down played ONE WORD in the Bible. Keep in mind that this is one office of an individual church. There is only ONE church: Christ's church. All others are not His. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: Serious question here. No slight intended, ok. How offensive do you think it is for Christians to be told our faith went into apostasy in the 1st Century and the faith has been lost for 1900 years? Then the AGREED upon tenants of the Christian faith are not what you believe but that you think you have a right to use a name that we have used since 300 AD? Now whose religion trampled on another's here? I could include much more, but I just want you to think about that. LDS do not deny that other Christians devote their lives to Christ the best they know how. (Though many mainstream Christians deny this of LDS). What we do deny is that the Nicene Creed and such are true teachings, or that a document written of man should be upheld to the level of God-breathed scripture (let alone define scripture). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 2 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: LDS do not deny that other Christians devote their lives to Christ the best they know how. (Though many mainstream Christians deny this of LDS). What we do deny is that the Nicene Creed and such are true teachings, or that a document written of man should be upheld to the level of God-breathed scripture (let alone define scripture). Please stay on topic. We are talking about the supposed apostasy. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: Please stay on topic. We are talking about the supposed apostasy. Thanks Mainstream Christians holding the word of man (like the Creeds) on par with scripture is a key part of their apostasy. LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: Please stay on topic. We are talking about the supposed apostasy. Thanks Mainstream Christians holding the word of man (like the Creeds) on par with scripture is a key part of their apostasy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: NO BIBLICAL PROPHET has ever changed or down played ONE WORD in the Bible. Keep in mind that this is one office of an individual church. So, if you think you can prove some apostle from the Bible who will change and add to scripture be my guest. I'll be waiting to read the Bible verses you come up with and maybe correct the context if needed. Lets see... The Book of Matthew... that is an addition... Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter.... all of them added scripture... We know this because we have accepted their writing as scripture. As a matter of fact every book in the bible added more scriptures to the books that came before it... This is simply the fact of how we got the bible. You argument is self contradictory 7 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: John the Baptist, Mary just to name two. They were prophesied about. But this is same John Baptist that you claim had no authority until the moment he Baptized Christ? And Mary... who we have no record of ever preaching or calling people to repentance. The simple fact is that you claim that Joseph Smith was not prophesied of he can't be a prophet. All I have to do is pick one prophet whom there are no prophesy about to prove this point false. I choose Paul. Show me the prophesy about the Paul that validates him as a prophet,,, When you can't do this realize your claim is false. LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 12 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: LDS do not deny that other Christians devote their lives to Christ the best they know how. (Though many mainstream Christians deny this of LDS). What we do deny is that the Nicene Creed and such are true teachings, or that a document written of man should be upheld to the level of God-breathed scripture (let alone define scripture). Jane, Jane, Jane, What you do deny is that we will be in the highest heaven with Jesus Christ for eternity. That is what every Christian wants, so it is so misleading how you spin this one. The other thing is you have NO IDEA WHAT A CREED IS. I think I'll get you a definition off the internet maybe you can understand. Hold on. A creed (also confession, symbol, or statement of faith) is a statement of the shared beliefs of a religious community in the form of a fixed formula summarizing core tenets. creed play noun \ˈkrēd\ Simple Definition of creed : a statement of the basic beliefs of a religion : an idea or set of beliefs that guides the actions of a person or group noun 1. any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of adenomination. 2. any system or codification of belief or of opinion. 3. an authoritative, formulated statement of the chief articles ofChristian belief, as the Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, or theAthanasian Creed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: How does that change that JS did not meet any of the criteria of a Biblical prophet? He lied to his wife about polygamy, married children, married married women, changed the first vision story 3 times, practiced polygamy 30 years before it was written into 'scripture'. Was a racist, calling blacks the Sons of Cain which is sons of Satan. Wrote an entire book, BOA from Egyptian hyroglifs that did not mean what he translated them to mean. He could NOT hold a candle to any Biblical prophet. Not morally, not in character and certainly not in his love for God. The church under Christ is Christianity. The church under JS is Mormonism. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. But you know this already. If you read your Bible, you will find that Biblical prophets lied, married people as young as 14 and younger (Mary was likely 14), had multiple wives, wrote scripture inspired of God, and made mistakes. LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 3 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Mainstream Christians holding the word of man (like the Creeds) on par with scripture is a key part of their apostasy. I have posted definitions of what a 'creed' is so you can understand that it is not scripture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 10 minutes ago, Tobeloved said: How does that change that JS did not meet any of the criteria of a Biblical prophet? He lied to his wife about polygamy, married children, married married women, changed the first vision story 3 times, practiced polygamy 30 years before it was written into 'scripture'. Was a racist, calling blacks the Sons of Cain which is sons of Satan. Wrote an entire book, BOA from Egyptian hyroglifs that did not mean what he translated them to mean. He could NOT hold a candle to any Biblical prophet. Not morally, not in character and certainly not in his love for God. The church under Christ is Christianity. The church under JS is Mormonism. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. But you know this already. If you read your Bible, you will find that Biblical prophets lied, married people as young as 14 and younger (Mary was likely 14), had multiple wives, wrote scripture inspired of God, and made mistakes. LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said: Mainstream Christians holding the word of man (like the Creeds) on par with scripture is a key part of their apostasy. That is a flat out lie. And you know it. Now I am calling your truth and character in to question as you persist with this lie after being corrected 3 times (previously, not on this forum) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 8 minutes ago, estradling75 said: Lets see... The Book of Matthew... that is an addition... Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Peter.... all of them added scripture... We know this because we have accepted their writing as scripture. As a matter of fact every book in the bible added more scriptures to the books that came before it... This is simply the fact of how we got the bible. You argument is self contradictory They were prophesied about. But this is same John Baptist that you claim had no authority until the moment he Baptized Christ? And Mary... who we have no record of ever preaching or calling people to repentance. The simple fact is that you claim that Joseph Smith was not prophesied of he can't be a prophet. All I have to do is pick one prophet whom there are no prophesy about to prove this point false. I choose Paul. Show me the prophesy about the Paul that validates him as a prophet,,, When you can't do this realize your claim is false. No Biblical evidence, so I am moving on. You cannot prove me in error with no Biblical evidence. That's not how you challenge a Christians doctrine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Just now, Tobeloved said: That is a flat out lie. And you know it. So what is the lie... They don't hold it as scripture? Or it is not the word of man? If it is not the word of man they show me the chapter and verse the Creed is given in the scriptures,,, if it not held as scriptures then why is it considered an acceptable standard for rendering judgement? LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane_Doe Posted April 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Tobeloved said: Jane, Jane, Jane, What you do deny is that we will be in the highest heaven with Jesus Christ for eternity. That is what every Christian wants, so it is so misleading how you spin this one. The other thing is you have NO IDEA WHAT A CREED IS. I think I'll get you a definition off the internet maybe you can understand. Hold on. A creed (also confession, symbol, or statement of faith) is a statement of the shared beliefs of a religious community in the form of a fixed formula summarizing core tenets. .... Can you show me where in the Bible "truth" is declared via the popular vote of men? LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 (edited) 17 hours ago, Tobeloved said: 1) I don't see why you are criticizing me for my question. I did ask and I thought that I put thought into the wording and gave people the opportunity to post a reply. 2) I do not see why I am being picked on, this is my first post here and maybe I should not be here at all. I didn't hide anything, so I do not get it. 1) I'm criticizing you for your question because it was a) not the real question that you have subsequently discussed. b) It was an ambush question as I've outlined. and c) You've misinterpreted the answer to mean something it doesn't mean. This is a typical tactic that is used when understanding is not the desired result, but rather a criticism (warranted or not) is PLANNED. 2) I don't know why others are picking on you. I can't speak for them. The reason why I'm having a hard time is that the very first response you gave me was "I disagree" then you proceeded to reiterate my point. So you actually agreed with me, but chose to say you disagreed. What am I to think of that. Then the next post I recall was you telling me that I needed to re-read your original question which I addressed accurately. So, in truth, I feel like you're picking on me. I've tried to give you the benefit of the doubt when I asked if you're having technical difficulties. But I just found it odd that you're able to handle everyone else's posts, but not mine. You've said you'd go back to the first page and try to address the questions. You've continued to engage in discussions with everyone else. But now seven pages later, you've still not responded to my questions. Look, if you just don't want to answer them, no one's forcing you to. This is an open forum. Do what you want. But it is disingenuous to continue to engage others again and again, then say you're going to answer my questions, then not answer them. Edited April 23, 2016 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
estradling75 Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Just now, Tobeloved said: No Biblical evidence, so I am moving on. You cannot prove me in error with no Biblical evidence. That's not how you challenge a Christians doctrine. Did you just say the Book of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the writings of Peter and Paul are not biblical? LeSellers 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tobeloved Posted April 23, 2016 Report Share Posted April 23, 2016 Just now, estradling75 said: So what is the lie... They don't hold it as scripture? Or it is not the word of man? We call it a 'creed' because it IS NOT scripture. You can read the definition of creed I posted earlier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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