Two Really Esoteric "mystery" Questions.

[Fiannan]

I would like to start a discussion here on something that came to my mind this morning on the way to work. First, are certain couples in a way predestined to meet and marry and are children in the pre-existence in some way able to try to bring certain people together. It's really late and I would like to share some more insights and questions but I'll postpone that for a few hours. Feel free to speculate.

[Gwen]

not sure if this is exactly where you wanted to go with this but i have always believed that families are organized before we get here. i do believe that my husband and i were "meant" to be. this thinking was challenged when i met my husband. he had been married before, in the temple, says he prayed about things before marrying her and the answer was clearly a yes. why would the lord have said for him to marry her if he was supposed to marry me? i still don't know the answer to that, but i do still think we were meant to be.

hubby and i have a few years between us lol and he and i were talking one day and i was telling him about an experiance i went through. there was a point in my teens when i became very preoccupied with my future husband. i recall praying for him all the time. asking the lord, i don't know who he is but you do, help him, don't let him fall into temptation, let him have a strong testamony so we can go to the temple together; i was trying to do all the right things to be worthy of him, let him do the same for me.....all kinds of things of that nature. then we started comparing notes, putting things on a time line. this time that i was going through, praying "for him", was right after he returned home from his mission. that was a time of great trial and temptation for him. he almost left all he knew, one of the hardest times in his life (in a tie with going through the divorce i think he would say now). i guess it all could have been coincidence, sure was interesting though.

when he and i were dating and thinking this could lead to marriage but not talking about it yet, hubby was tucking his son into bed and he said "daddy, after you and gwen get married and my brother comes we can share a room." he then went on to make plans about sharing a room with his brother and what that would be like. we had a honeymoon baby, a boy. did he know or was he just lucky? i think he knew. weither he remembered from before or it was revelation given to him to help him deal with his situation of divorce, he knew.

our 3rd child was in the hospital due to seizures at 3 months of age. one night things were strange to say the least. i felt after that night things would be fine, i didn't see anyone but i swear he had a visitor. he seemed to get progressivley better after that night. when he was 18 months we were preparing for the birth of his sis. he would get all tied up in a fit and about the only thing that would calm him down was pictures of infants. he loved to talk about the baby that was comming. after she was born he came running into the hospital room with this glitter in his eye, he knew exactly who he was looking for. he was attached to her from day one. he loved to "hold" her, and take care of her. there was a connection there that could be felt. i remember my first thought when i saw the way he looked at her was; "she was his visitor, he's been waiting for her to get here". so many things just made since for me. they are still little partners in crime, i tell ppl they are twins sometimes. constantly looking out for eachother, taking care of eachother. i have no doubt they knew eachother well before they got here.

i don't claim to know the exact extent that we know or impact eachother before we get here. but i do believe that some couples, some families are "meant to be". i believe that the members of our family that aren't here yet are aware of how the family is doing. lol they may even come with assignments to "straighten us out" and get us on the right track once they get here.

[pushka]

If 'some' people were meant to be together, would it not follow that 'all' couples were meant to be together? and wouldn't that take away from their free agency to choose each other when they were born on this earth?

I have read lots of stories lately, in magazines, about children who have been dying of cancer...I must admit that it is quite distressing to see the numbers of children affected in that way. However, one story did strike me as strange, and may suggest more evidence of your way of thinking. This particular child was only 2 when she was diagnosed with cancer. She battled thru it and one day told her mum that she was going to have a baby girl and that she would name the baby Megan. The family was not planning on having any more children at the time, because of the pressure of caring for their daughter. However, shortly afterwards the mum found that she was pregnant, and she did give birth to a daughter whom she named Megan. 6 weeks after her 2nd daughter was born, the first daughter was discovered to have cancer again, and she died holding her baby sister 2 weeks later...that mum was convinced that somehow, her daughter knew that she was going to have another daughter to replace her...she also seemed to know that her cancer had returned even though she had, shortly before, been given a clean bill of health.

[Jbs2763]

I've actually thought about this alot for being a dude....I konw that i think i am ready to meet that special gal, I'm 28 now and have thought that i've met "her" a couple times, and it didn't work out.that actually segways into another thought, do y'all think that the failed relationships we have are for lack of a better term "training" for the person we are supposed to be with, all the pain and mistrust built up over years of failed ones?

One thing i think about on ocasson as terms to regerts, i wonder if i would have served a mission, and gone to BYU-H if i would have found someone? Did Hevanly Father plan on some of us straying and returning? I happen to think all the stupid crap i did has made me who I am today, and i am more confident im myself, I'm not proud of my past but I dont try and hide it. I know that me not always beinga perfect lil' mormon boy scares off some of the girls i've met, but I hope that i will meet somene before too long that will appreacatie the long hard lessons learned and realize that stuff like that might make me a better person.....

i dunno.. i

[Jason]

I would like to start a discussion here on something that came to my mind this morning on the way to work. First, are certain couples in a way predestined to meet and marry and are children in the pre-existence in some way able to try to bring certain people together. It's really late and I would like to share some more insights and questions but I'll postpone that for a few hours. Feel free to speculate.

My beliefs in reincarnation make this subject even more interesting. Imagine that we've been married to people before who are now our friends, children, parents, etc. Imagine that there's a reason why we're more connected to some people than others, even if they're just close friends, or whatever.

Course, my belief also transcends gender (as I don't believe gender is eternal) so we men may have been women, and vice versa. (Which I think makes homosexuality much more understandable as well, but I digress.)

[Fiannan]

You know, this is going to sound really New Age but then again fundamentalists claim the LDS Church is totally New Age so...

I have a book I ordered from Dr. Melvin Morse's (hope I spelled that right) organization -- he started out a pediatric doctor who was raised Jewish but became atheistic. He studied near death experiences in hopes of finding the neurological answer to them (not believing in anything else) so as to apply some sort of study to assist reviving patients in deep comas. As time went on he found that secular science could not explain NDEs and while he believes in "God" it seems akin to new age thinking.

The book I have is one that deals with experiences BEFORE birth -- that is, psychic experiences involving the pre-existence usually involving visitations from spirits desiring to be born but also NDEs where people have met the children they were to bring into the world. One of the things that seemed intriguing was the idea some people mentioned of children (in the PE) trying to influence couples to get together so they could come into the world.

Now Brigham Young said that if the veil were lifted we would discover that there are many ministering angels as well as spirits surrounding us. Jews believe that when Moses recieved the 10 Commandments that all Jews deceased as well as to be born were witnesses. Now that may really complicate our ideas of human relationships! Most of us believe that when we have strong "chemistry" with someone of the opposite gender that maybe Satan is tempting us to do evil (have sex) but is it far fetched to speculate that some of that "temptation" could be from spirits desiring to come to earth through such unions? If we can speculate that babies are very emotionally based and self centered (not really knowing right from wrong) and part of the maturing process on earth is to gain insights into obedience then perhaps our spirits in the pre-existence are also totally emotionally based and essentially "innocent" of wanting to do harm. In that way (since we are taught that spirits in the PE are so anxious to come to earth that they don't care if they are born as one-legged goat herders in the countains of Afghanistan) then maybe some of those temptations are not so hormonal or Satanic. Is this really off base?

As for finding the perfect mate then one could also speculate that God's ways and man's ways are not in accordance with one another. I had a patriarch who told me that age should not matter since the person you are with may be younger in age on earth but older than you in the eternal perspective. Also, if Brigham Young was meant to be with his wives by God, as David was given his forst 6 wives by God according to the Prophet Nathan, then maybe there are more "Mrs. Rights" out there but you won't find that out until the next life. Also, I once asked an institute director about couples that hate each other but are sealed together and stay together for the kids sakes or for whatever reason -- will they be re-assigned in the next life? He said that once most of these coouples see each other in the next life doing God's work as well as being free of this life's anxieties and negativities then these people will be totally united with each other in even higher levels than we expect from people on earth totally connected. Yet what of divorce? I know plenty of people whose patriarchal blessings mention something important in their lives or the lives of their children that never happened with the first wife for instance but later did get fulfilled with the second. Yet blessings were fulfilled with the first. That means that God knew they would marry, divorce and marry again -- so that means a person could get a "yes, marry her" from God because you were supposed to marry her but God also knew a divorce would occur and you'd marry someone else. Perhaps in the next life you'll discover that an ex wife (especially if a cealing took place) is still married to you and your wife you die with. Then add to that those "right ones" you could have married but were prevented by social customs and laws from doing so...

Thoughts?

[Snow]

I would like to start a discussion here on something that came to my mind this morning on the way to work. First, are certain couples in a way predestined to meet and marry and are children in the pre-existence in some way able to try to bring certain people together. It's really late and I would like to share some more insights and questions but I'll postpone that for a few hours. Feel free to speculate.

I only know that my wife was predestined to marry me. I could tell because of the giant S stamped on her forhead.

[shanstress70]

do y'all think that the failed relationships we have are for lack of a better term "training" for the person we are supposed to be with, all the pain and mistrust built up over years of failed ones?

I absolutely believe this is true. I dated a lot of guys before settling down with my husband at age 28. I grew and learned so much through all that dating experience, and became a much better person bc of it.

Thoughts?

REALLY want them? REALLY?

[Gwen]

If 'some' people were meant to be together, would it not follow that 'all' couples were meant to be together? and wouldn't that take away from their free agency to choose each other when they were born on this earth?

i have thought about that pushka, i personaly don't believe in a "one and ONLY" but that some ppl were picked before. i can't quote this from a prophet or anything, just my ponderings, but here is a bit more on how i see all that. there is a quote i hear a lot in the chruch along the lines of any two ppl that truely live the gospel can have a wonderful loving fulfilling marriage. i believe that but i do not think that is all there is to it. the gospel is such that it would be true any two ppl could be in love and happy (assumeing two ppl could live the gospel perfectly enough). i think of the prexistance kinda like it is here. we all knew eachother, we were being taught and prepared for the things to come, we developed relationships and friendships. i feel like some of us, not all of us, decided we wanted to be together and asked our father to help us find eachother after we got to earth (weither this be friendship or romantic). we were promised we would find eachother reguardless of how far apart we are on this earth if we always strive to follow his promptings, he would make a way. if after getting here the "one" you wanted to find takes a different path, refuses to follow the father...are you destined to be alone? i don't think you are, because there are many you could be happy with, the father knows who they are and will help you find that person. so we do still have agency, not all couples were "predestined", there is no one and ONLY, but you could be "meant to be". if that doesn't sound like a compleate contridiction. lol same with children, there may be more children that were "planned" for our family but if i choose to stop having children, they aren't stuck forever without a body, or cast into some unfit situation. we could all be tested in many ways, our heavenly father can handle our foolishness and mistakes.

do y'all think that the failed relationships we have are for lack of a better term "training" for the person we are supposed to be with, all the pain and mistrust built up over years of failed ones?

i think everything in this life is training. i think our father knew the odds of our straying and comming back and he did plan for that. i don't believe he puts those "bad" situations in front of us. but more when we fail to listen and get ourselves stuck he can use it to teach us and we can get out and become better for it; if we let him. i recall hearing it said once that how much we trust ppl has nothing to do with the other ppl, but how much we trust ourselves to be able to handle their choices/imperfections. i used to wonder why our heavenly father would give such important tasks to such imperfect ppl. that statment kinda resolved that for me. he can trust me (or anyone) with these great tasks, cause no matter how bad i mess it up, if i'm at least trying to follow him, he can fix it, good can come from it. his will will be done. now i don't really want to make it any harder for him than necessary. lol sometimes i think i do.

this has come up a lot in our house lately. we have been in court stuff with my husband's ex about his son. when they first divorced my husband was givin some counsel from the stake pres (which should have never been given) that he chose to follow even when his leagal counsel advised him not to. that complicated things greatly. i do not think that is the way the lord wanted it done. i do believe my husband was blessed in many ways (mostly with streangth to endure and not allow himself to be alienated). i do believe that the lord is slowly straightening that out and fixing this situation. was this the only way? i don't think so. was this the way the lord "wanted it done"? i don't think so. can it be made right? YES!!! if we do all we can to follow the lord will it be made right? i have faith in that, one day it will be as it should be. we may complicate the plan of salvation, we can't destroy or prevent it.

I once asked an institute director about couples that hate each other but are sealed together and stay together for the kids sakes or for whatever reason -- will they be re-assigned in the next life? He said that once most of these coouples see each other in the next life doing God's work as well as being free of this life's anxieties and negativities then these people will be totally united with each other in even higher levels than we expect from people on earth totally connected. Yet what of divorce? I know plenty of people whose patriarchal blessings mention something important in their lives or the lives of their children that never happened with the first wife for instance but later did get fulfilled with the second. Yet blessings were fulfilled with the first. That means that God knew they would marry, divorce and marry again -- so that means a person could get a "yes, marry her" from God because you were supposed to marry her but God also knew a divorce would occur and you'd marry someone else. Perhaps in the next life you'll discover that an ex wife (especially if a cealing took place) is still married to you and your wife you die with. Then add to that those "right ones" you could have married but were prevented by social customs and laws from doing so...

Thoughts?

i disagree with that institute director on several points. my parents had a horrible marriage. i watched them go on this rollercoaster of counseling and what not my whole life. they were married before they joined the church. i used to ask all the time, well if you didn't know about receiving personal revelation when you got married, what if you chose the wrong person? where did that leave you? i never felt my parents were "meant to be". they stayed married till all the kids were grown and then divorced. my dad has gotten remarried. i do think that my siblings and i were meant to be siblings, i think we were put in that union after it took place (god knowing it would take place i guess it could have still all been "planned" to some extent). i always felt like (before the divorce) that my parents had one of two destinies. one they would eventually figure it out, they would come to love eachother (somewhat like your institute director said, or the quote of any two ppl trying to live the gospel i mentioned earlier); or they would be reassigned and blessed for their efforts to make it work even though they were never able to come to love eachother in the end. since the divorce i see them as the same boat as my husband, irreguardless of a sealing there will be no marriage to eachother in the hearafter. i was very concerned about this, the whole concept of being with someone you divorced in this life later due to a sealing just makes my skin crawl (as i think it would almost anyone who has been through a divorce), and i asked my stake pres as i was preparing to go to the temple how that worked. the last thing i wanted was to be "second wife" to this she-devil; expecially when i was the one that formed and lived this life with my husband. he pointed out the doctrine that if you can't live a lesser law in this life you will not be asked to live it in the next. you can't live the law of tithing here you will never be asked to live the law of consecration. you can't live till death do you part you won't be asked to live eternity. that if she is worthy of an eternal marriage and does not find that here she will not be part of our sealing. to me that makes more since and is far less nausiating. but then maybe i'm just rationalizing things to make myself feel better.

[Annabelli]

As for premortal/pre-existence, families, marriages, children, it has it PROS mostly when things are going nicely in your life.

When you are going through a rough time in your life, you may consider it one of the premortal Trials and that will give you the courage to deal with it (PROS).

If your marriage is filled with irreconcilable differences and your children are always upset by the off spring of these problems, falling back on the premortal concept could cause you to stop working toward solving the problems (marriage counseling...etc.) (CONS).

If your life has been filled with an ongoing chain or series of Trials, maybe you are trying to speed up or accomplish things and the time has not come to do that yet. This can readily cause a person to loose Faith. (CONS).

Destiny is somebody's preordained future, the inner realizable purpose of a life, a force or agency that predetermines what will happen. And the saying goes "We are the masters of our destiny."

[checkerboy]

Just thought I would throw in my two cents. I am getting divorced and I have two boys. When I met my wife she was still married to her first ex. After we dated for a few months I remember getting an answer to my question of should I marry her. Well now 8 years later we are no longer together. She has been very bitter about still being sealed to me after we get divorced. Our bishop has tried to explain that the sealing will not be in effect if we do not live up to the covenants that we made at the time we were sealed. Well she is not living those covenants anymore. So I am not worried about having to be stuck with her after this life. I am also not worried that I got a definite answer to marry her and then have her leave me later. I believe that our children were meant to come to earth at this time and they needed to have certain physical traits that the two of us could give them. Beyond that because of choices we made the two of us couldn't live compatably. Now that leaves me wondering, I want more children but maybe some of the children we would have had now have gone to families that were similar to ours. I don't worry too much about how things after this life will be I simply strive to live correct principles and let the Lord sort out the messes we make with our choices. I believe that maybe had I made different choices I would have received blessings that I do not now enjoy but ultimately if I make corrections in my life I can receive new blessings correspondingly. Anyway don't know if that made a whole lot of sense but I try not to let these things upset me cause I know that the Lord knows me and wants to give me what He knows will make me happy.

[Annabelli]

I believe that our children were meant to come to earth at this time and they needed to have certain physical traits that the two of us could give them. I want more children but maybe some of the children we would have had now have gone to families that were similar to ours.

I thought it was just vanity that I always felt that way. Then you hear the blue bloods talk about breeding lines and that seems even more vain. But the way you wrote it, it takes a load off. Thanks.

Maybe some children were meant to be born to different generations with very different traits.