How Many Gods Are There?

[andybmcd]

Hello to all,

I have begun studying The Book of Abraham along with Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses and come across some puzzling passages.

"Gods exist and we must be prepared to be one with them" Journal of Discourses 7:238

"And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth" Abraham 4:1

Now, if we are to believe that the Bible and works of Prophet Smith (e.g. Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenents, etc.) complement each other and serve to strengthen each other. How do we reconcile the Bible, which states that there is only one God (Jehovah) while the Pearl of Great Price and others seem to contradict that notion.

P.S. I am just noticing this, but doesn't Abraham 4:1 also contradict Genesis 1:1? "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" It says God not Gods.

I must say that this issue was brought to me by one who has done considerable research into the LDS church, I, despite not yet being LDS myself, tried to play devil's advocate (metaphorically speaking, of course) and tried to explain away several of his challenges. However, I have no understanding of matters such as these.

Any insight provided would be greatly appreciated.

[MadHatter]

the Bible is Falliable, it has been translated and re-written numerous times over the course of the millenia. there are bound to be mistakes and errors. as we know, the KJV of the bible is the most correct of all the current translations of the bible. (aside from the inspired version, which i cannot wait to read the whole thing but it's still $100 from Deseret Book).

there are more Gods than you can imagine, but it doesn't matter or pertain to our salvation on this earth.

We submit and are subject to only One God, our Heavenly Father who has a specicif name, but out of respect i will not put his name out here on a forum. most members of the chearch have heard his name and know it so that should suffice.

If we meet all the requirements to pass by the Sentinel angels guarding the celestial kingdom after our resurrection and judgement, we will be crowned with the same glory that our Heavenly Father has and have "his name upon [our] foreheads forever and ever".

We are not the first "mankind" to be created by our heavenly father, and won't be the last.

2 Ne. 29: 9

9 And I do this that I may prove unto many that I am the same yesterday, today, and forever; and that I speak forth my words according to mine own pleasure. And because that I have spoken one word ye need not suppose that I cannot speak another; for my work is not yet finished; neither shall it be until the end of man, neither from that time henceforth and forever.

and the same his brothers and sisters in the heavens who have obtained the same glory.thier works are everlasting.

[andybmcd]

I appreciate your insights, mad hatter (Alice in Wonderland fan?) but it has cast further confusion on me. If the Bible is fallible, why even use it at all? How can you then trust anything you read.

I'm sorry if I am being difficult, but your post has only confused me more.

[MadHatter]

I apologize for the confusion.

one of our articles of faith says

"We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."

The bible is the word of God, but mankind and thier meddling has changed things, and changed words, and meanings of words, misused them in wrong context and such to create what we now know as the bible.

We are told as LDS member to search the scriptures dilligently with prayer and have the holy Spirit guide our reading and allow us to interpit these things correctly.

In the book of Mormon, Nephi states:

1 Ne. 19: 6

6 Nevertheless, I do not write anything upon plates save it be that I think it be sacred. And now, if I do err, even did they err of old; not that I would excuse myself because of other men, but because of the weakness which is in me, according to the flesh, I would excuse myself.

all scripture is writtn by man (falliable) and should be carefully scrutinized with prayer and possibly fasting, also with a true desire to know, so that the holy spirit may testify to you the truth of all things.

The Bible is a testament of Jesus Christ and the eternal plan of salvation for all mankind, It's words are inspired by God, that is why we use it.

[andybmcd]

Ok, but does that stance not cast the Book of Mormon into doubt as well? I mean Nephi just about said that it is possible that he may have erred. Does that also mean that parts of the Book of Mormon are false as well?

On a second thought, is it church doctrine that Prophet Smith and all those who have taken the mantle from him are always certain about their revelations? Are they all divinely inspired? Does the same go for his prophecies as well?

Maybe I ask too many questions, but that is how I learn.

[Dr T]

My answer to the thread title= One true God.

[andybmcd]

Whoa, I am really confused now, unless Dr. T is not LDS. So, by consensus which is it?

[Dr T]

I am not LDS sir. My answer stands, "There is only one true God"

[andybmcd]

Thank you Dr. T. I appreciate your insight as well and I am well informed of the position you hold.

However, I am hoping to see a bit more of the Mormon viewpoint of my questions. Someone beyond the "scriptural relativism" (just made that up) of Mad Hatter. If anyone has a different interpretation or would like to affirm his stance please respond. It is in curiosity that you find answers to your questions.

[MadHatter]

Ok, but does that stance not cast the Book of Mormon into doubt as well? I mean Nephi just about said that it is possible that he may have erred. Does that also mean that parts of the Book of Mormon are false as well?

On a second thought, is it church doctrine that Prophet Smith and all those who have taken the mantle from him are always certain about their revelations? Are they all divinely inspired? Does the same go for his prophecies as well?

Maybe I ask too many questions, but that is how I learn.

Indeed, Nephi did say that he is doing what he feels he is inspired to do, but if he is wrong he excuses himself according to his own flesh, not because of what the other prophets have writen down. which he even says "as did they err of old."

Yes, we believe they are divinely inspired. And yes, they are always certain about thier revelations, just as I am certain about thier revelations, as wella s my own personal revelations regarding my life and the life of my family. because I have prayed about these things, with a desire to know for a surety what the truth is.

There is Moroni's promise also in the Book of Mormon

Moroni 10:3-5

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Everything that comes from the tounge of man, is possibly Falliable, We are told to pray for ourselves to find out what is true on our own, to "not trust in the arm of the flesh"

It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that we may know the truth of all things. We are to put our trust in the Lord with a sdesire to know what is true and right. and we must ask, we cannot expect things to be just given to us, we must search and pray for ourselves with a desire to know the truth, only then will we find it.

[andybmcd]

Thank you for your input Mad Hatter. Now that I have that cleared up, what of Smith's prophecies that did not come to pass. If these prophecies are not true, how can they be divinely inspired?

E.g. In Doctrine and Covenants Section 87, Smith prophesies

"At the rebellion of South Carolina the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain and then war shall be poured out upon all nations . And slaves shall rise up against their masters and that the remnants shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation"

Now he got the first part right about South Carolina and calling on Britain for aid. While it is possible that he merely could have put two and two together, I will give him credit for that.

However, as we know from history war did not pour out among all nations, the slaves did not rise up against their masters (many in fact joined the Confederate side) and the remnants (Native Americans) were vexed themselves and much of the "vexing" that they did was negligable compared to the devastation wreaked upon them.

Also, in Doctrine and Covenants 124: 22-23, 59 Smith claims that he would possess the house in Nauvoo "For ever and ever". Not only did his children never inhabit the house after his death, but According to The Comprehensive History of the Church 1:160, “The Nauvoo House was never completed; and after its unfinished walls had stood unprotected for a number of years and were crumbling to decay, they were taken down; the foundations were torn up and the excellent building stone of which they were constructed sold for use in other buildings in and about Nauvoo.” However, the church has rebuilt the house into a tourist attraction.

Also, to continue a previous a previous thread I have found an inconsistency within the Pearl of Great Price itself.

"I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest” (Moses 2:1).

The Book of Abraham, on the other hand, contradicts this monotheistic view of creation:

“And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (Abraham 4:1).

I am sorry if my tone is beginning to sound accusatory, but getting the same response for most of my questions is starting to make me very skeptical and a little frustrated. I would really like to believe that these beliefs are true, but I need a little more reassurance. There just seems to many too many holes.

[MadHatter]

Thank you for your input Mad Hatter. Now that I have that cleared up, what of Smith's prophecies that did not come to pass. If these prophecies are not true, how can they be divinely inspired?

E.g. In Doctrine and Covenants Section 87, Smith prophesies

"At the rebellion of South Carolina the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain and then war shall be poured out upon all nations . And slaves shall rise up against their masters and that the remnants shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation"

Now he got the first part right about South Carolina and calling on Britain for aid. While it is possible that he merely could have put two and two together, I will give him credit for that.

However, as we know from history war did not pour out among all nations, the slaves did not rise up against their masters (many in fact joined the Confederate side) and the remnants (Native Americans) were vexed themselves and much of the "vexing" that they did was negligable compared to the devastation wreaked upon them.

Also, in Doctrine and Covenants 124: 22-23, 59 Smith claims that he would possess the house in Nauvoo "For ever and ever". Not only did his children never inhabit the house after his death, but According to The Comprehensive History of the Church 1:160, “The Nauvoo House was never completed; and after its unfinished walls had stood unprotected for a number of years and were crumbling to decay, they were taken down; the foundations were torn up and the excellent building stone of which they were constructed sold for use in other buildings in and about Nauvoo.” However, the church has rebuilt the house into a tourist attraction.

Also, to continue a previous a previous thread I have found an inconsistency within the Pearl of Great Price itself.

"I am the Beginning and the End, the Almighty God; by mine Only Begotten I created these things; yea, in the beginning I created the heaven, and the earth upon which thou standest” (Moses 2:1).

The Book of Abraham, on the other hand, contradicts this monotheistic view of creation:

“And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (Abraham 4:1).

I am sorry if my tone is beginning to sound accusatory, but getting the same response for most of my questions is starting to make me very skeptical and a little frustrated. I would really like to believe that these beliefs are true, but I need a little more reassurance. There just seems to many too many holes.

If you read the headers of the chapters you wills ee that they do not actually conflict with eachother, "the Gods" in regards to the "Godhead" (namely God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit). Christ created this world for us and everythign in it under the direction of Heavenly Father. Then when it came to creating Man, God did that himself.

As for the Prophesies of Joseph Smith, The slaves did rise up against thier masters on many occasions during the civil war, they ran to the north for sanctuary, and many joined the army to help the fight. this aside from all the smaller rises that popped up on plantations all through the south during that time where slaves visciously killed thier masters. that indeed did happen. I don;t knwo where you get the part about Native americans from, it's still talking about the remnants of the slaves, and look how much more hate there is even today from people who are black against those who are white.

The Saints rebuilt the temple in Navoo, so yes, that prophesy has come to pass, we will own that land and that building forever and ever, the LDS church is not going anywhere. In fact experts say that the LDS church will reach over 260 Million worldwide by 2080.

I just hope that you are actually interested in learning, rather than trying to "prove the church wrong." If so, great, i hope i can help you out.

if you want reassurance, don;t look for it on a forum, Read the book of mormon, and honestly pray and Ask for guidance, and ask heavenly Father, in the name of Jesus Christ what is indeed true. and you will find it.

[Doctor Steuss]

Michael Heiser's Website on the Divine Council

[Jason]

Michael Heiser's Website on the Divine Council

Also check out Margaret Barker's stuff.

[Doctor Steuss]

<div class='quotemain'>

Michael Heiser's Website on the Divine Council

Also check out Margaret Barker's stuff.

Heiser takes issue with some of Barker's research; however, Kevin Christiansen recently demonstrated that some of the things he takes issue with are actually dealt with in some of Barker's works. There were still a few things though that seemed to not be addressed through Barker's work though (IIRC).

Edit: From memory, I believe it's a Hosea passage that is still Heiser's main qualm.

[a-train]

'IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' (Gen 1:1)

The Hebrew word translated God in our KJV is Elohim. This term is plural. Eloah is singular, Elohim is plural. Arguments have been made to the end that Elohim is actually an ancient Israelite spin on the Canaanite term elim, simply designed to designate the Hebrew God from any Canaanite diety. Several other theories have emerged concerning the etymology of the term, but the term is clearly plural.

The plurality of Elohim is further manifested in verse 26: 'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:'

Also Gen 3:22: 'And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:'

Efforts to reconcile this appearent plurality with declarations of scripture that there is but one God have resulted in the trinitarian Godhead, an explanation that is still not monotheistic enough for some.

Joseph Smith in his efforts to obtain the truth concerning the matter received revelation that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three distinct personages. The use of the term God would be similar to a Senate, a Company, etc. The use is singular, but it displays the union of a cohesive group. This particular group rules the Universe, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are one in purpose.

So call it polytheism, I don't care. We indeed say we believe there is but one true God. This is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Are they three seperate beings? Yes. Are they one in their engagement as Ruler of the Universe? YES. We further believe our efforts as followers of the Saviour is to the end that we, as the Saviour prayed unto the Father concerning His disciples: 'may be one, as we are.' (John 17:11)

The LDS people have no trouble saying that Jesus Christ is the Eternal God. We have no trouble saying the Father is the Eternal God. We have no trouble saying they are Gods. These are all true in their particular context and meaning. To the LDS, there is no disharmony therefore in the scriptures.

-a-train

[MadHatter]

Good one A-train, very good, thanks for that, I agree completely. altho i am more so favorable to the side of Calling them the "Godhead" because we do not worship christ, we worship our Heavenly Father, through Christ and by the power of the Holy Ghost.

[Dr T]

Yes, it is plural. To me that signifies a consistency with the idea that the one God consists of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. :)

[a-train]

'And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.' (2 Nephi 25:29)

Don't be afraid to say that we worship Christ. I found myself one day asking 'Why would I NOT worship Christ?' Does the LDS Church really teach that we are NOT to worship Christ?!?!?!? OF COURSE NOT!!! You will not find that teaching in the LDS Church. I think there is a modern feeling around the word worship that makes us (LDS) very careful with its use. I think too careful. We are definitely supposed to worship Christ. He is Jehovah, the Eternal God, the Great I AM, and was worshipped by all the Prophets.

-a-train

[Doctor Steuss]

[...]

The plurality of Elohim is further manifested in verse 26: 'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:'

[...]

I think the implications of verse 27 are interesting.

So God ['elohiym] created man in his own image, in the image of God ['elohiym] created he him; male and female created he them.

Things that make you go hmmmm...

I agree with Dr. T though that 'elohiym can potentially be used as an evidence for the orthodox concept of the Trinity.

[Jason]

The theory that the OT is teaching a Trinitarian theory was blown away long ago by the scholars mentioned in this thread. Course, it's not talking about the Mormon godhead either.

[Dr T]

There are consistencies with teh concept of the Trinity though. Just because a person from a different religious background disagrees with it and puts for a plausibility that it does not exist, does not make it justified in disregarding the evidence.

[BenRaines]

I was involved in a discussion the other day with some friends where we were discussing the idea that "God" may be the the perfected Heavenly couple, hence created in "their images" both male and female.

Food for thought.

Ben Raines

[a-train]

Understand that LDS persons didn't just up and decide to reject any theory that God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are the same Being. They have a revelation from a Prophet on the matter. Joseph Smith is akin to Moses to the LDS people. He is the Prophet of this dispensation. Through Moses came all the clarification and teaching the LORD was willing to give Israel in his time. Through Joseph Smith came all the LORD was willing to give at that time.

What I am trying to say here, is that LDS persons did NOT come to their understanding of the Godhead through lingual, historical, etymological, scientific, or other analysis of the scriptures. The understanding came from the LORD through His prophet. It's just that simple.

LDS persons, after finding that Joseph Smith is a prophet and his revelations to be authentic, interpret the scriptures in ways cohesive with those revelations. The old questions as to how to interpret the various verses of the Bible that seem to portray the Godhead in either singular or plural ways, are thrown out entirely with the understanding that the Father and the Son each possess individual physical bodies as distinct and material as man's.

The meaning of Their Oneness is therefore NOT considered physical or material by the LDS people, just as the oneness of the LORD's disciples the Saviour prayed about. Perhaps there may exist some of the persuasion that the disciples will indeed one day be embodied in a single physical body, or even exist together as a single immaterial being, but I have yet to meet an adherent of such a notion.

-a-train

[MadHatter]

'And now behold, I say unto you that the right way is to believe in Christ, and deny him not; and Christ is the Holy One of Israel; wherefore ye must bow down before him, and worship him with all your might, mind, and strength, and your whole soul; and if ye do this ye shall in nowise be cast out.' (2 Nephi 25:29)

Don't be afraid to say that we worship Christ. I found myself one day asking 'Why would I NOT worship Christ?' Does the LDS Church really teach that we are NOT to worship Christ?!?!?!? OF COURSE NOT!!! You will not find that teaching in the LDS Church. I think there is a modern feeling around the word worship that makes us (LDS) very careful with its use. I think too careful. We are definitely supposed to worship Christ. He is Jehovah, the Eternal God, the Great I AM, and was worshipped by all the Prophets.

-a-train

Wrong, we do not worship Christ, we worship god, THROUGH christ that is what we have been taught. Christ is the great mediator, our savior and our brother and friend. Through Christ we are able to return to live with our heavenly father. We do not pray to Chirst, we pray IN THE NAME of Christ.

Joseph smith is more akin to Noah than Moses, in his own words....

he responded to a question "Who are you?"

he said "Noah came before the flood; I came before the fire"