Questions About Joseph Smith And His Wives

[antispatula]

I'm reading "Rough Stone Rolling," by Richard Bushman, a professor at Columbia University, Historian and Patriarch within the church. I must say, the 1st 30 pages are quite boring, but it gets interesting and I love that he admits he believes him to be a prophet, yet tries to stay as objective as he can while discussing both the great and not-so-great things about him.

Anyways, I've always heard rumors that Joshep Smith, when he started marrying a whole plethora of women, married young girls as young as 15 and married a few women that were already wed to other men and I have always disregarded them and false, but turns out I'm wrong ; that it is well-documented.

While some people would find this news to be testimony shattering; I do not. I understand that the Restorer of the church was in no way perfect and did and said lots of things that many would find offensive, and I am not trying to justify his actions or do discredit his actions; I'm simply curious to see if anyone has any insight into this topic, I would like to learn more.

I understand that a couple of centuries ago, it was more common for men to marry much younger women, even though 15 sounds like it's kinda pushing it. But for the life of me I don't understand why he would marry women that already had husbands. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Cheers!

[a-train]

Without getting into the specifics of the situation and getting at the question of whether these marriages were approved of God or not and so forth, it must be noted that even in the case that Joseph was in error, the Restoration of the gospel would not be negated.

Check This

-a-train

PS: It would be impossible to get at this question without a thorough understanding of the dynastic nature of eternal marriage.

[Snow]

But for the life of me I don't understand why he would marry women that already had husbands. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Cheers!

Having read Bushman, you must surely have some idea... No?

[antispatula]

<div class='quotemain'>

But for the life of me I don't understand why he would marry women that already had husbands. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Cheers!

Having read Bushman, you must surely have some idea... No?

I'm only on page 40-50 right now. To see if I would be interested in the book, I first skimmed through random pages, I have not read the entire book yet.

Without getting into the specifics of the situation and getting at the question of whether these marriages were approved of God or not and so forth, it must be noted that even in the case that Joseph was in error, the Restoration of the gospel would not be negated.

Of course. And thank you for the very helpful link, I am reading it right now.

[antispatula]

just read a fair ammount of that link a-train, that explained everything, thank you.

Aparently, the women he was sealed to were only civily married to other husbands.

[Elphaba]

Aparently, the women he was sealed to were only civily married to other husbands.

No, this is not true.

Joseph was sealed to approximately 33 wives in all, with 19 of them being single.

Eleven (or maybe eight, according to the article) of Joseph's wives were already civilly married to a husband. The article from FAIR is limited to discussing only these wives.

You need to read all of the references to plural marriage in Bushman's book to better understand Joseph's reason for practicing it.

I would also recommend Todd Compton's "In Sacred Lonliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith."

Elphaba

[AnthonyB]

just read a fair ammount of that link a-train, that explained everything, thank you.

Aparently, the women he was sealed to were only civily married to other husbands.

From an LDS view...

Is any marriage that is not an eternal marriage counted as being only a "civil" marriage?

If someone makes a vow before God, does the vow become meaningless it it doesn't have the proper authority to solemnize it?

What church and what vows did Joseph and Emma use and did Joseph promise Emma that he would forsake all others as long as they both lived?

[a-train]

Tony B,

Yes, only the marriages conducted in the temple by the proper authority in the proper way are eternal. All others are civil.

Anyone can make a vow before God, however He doesn't accept covenants He has not arranged. For instance, 'God, I sware, I'll never smoke another cigarette if you let me live and take away my cancer.' The LORD is NOT bound to provide healing from this cancer, nor is He bound or engaged in this covenant regardless of the adherence to it by the smoker or not. The terms of covenants with God are not set by man, but provided by the Almighty. God must extend to man His covenants and the terms thereof, we cannot introduce covenants and their terms to Him.

The distinction between civil and eternal marriages Joseph Smith (and any LDS person for that matter) have engaged in, are that the civil ones are completely gone at death and the eternal ones do NOT necessarily have to be civil as well as eternal.

Example: a man can marry a woman in the temple and after her death, be married civilly to a second wife. He is still sealed to his first wife, but their civil marriage is over. In the case of Joseph Smith, he was sealed to women without engaging a civil earthly marriage with them.

Additionally, marriages solemnized in the temple are only appointed to become sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and if not so sealed, they have no eternal efficacy. So people unworthy of their covenants will NOT be sealed in the next world.

Now, as to the specifics of the vows and their efficacy engaged by the Prophet and his wife at their civil marriage before the restoration of temple sealings, I do not know. The implications and so forth of which would be pure speculation.

-a-train

[Annabelli]

Tony B,

Additionally, marriages solemnized in the temple are only appointed to become sealed by the Holy Spirit of Promise and if not so sealed, they have no eternal efficacy. So people unworthy of their covenants will NOT be sealed in the next world.

-a-train

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by appointed. The work that we do in the Temple is not final but is submitted to the Holy Spirit of Promise to be accepted or not? Or it is accepted (or not) at the end of your mortal Temple marriage?

[Gaia]

I'm reading "Rough Stone Rolling," by Richard Bushman, a professor at Columbia University, Historian and Patriarch within the church. I must say, the 1st 30 pages are quite boring, but it gets interesting and I love that he admits he believes him to be a prophet, yet tries to stay as objective as he can while discussing both the great and not-so-great things about him.

Anyways, I've always heard rumors that Joshep Smith, when he started marrying a whole plethora of women, married young girls as young as 15 and married a few women that were already wed to other men and I have always disregarded them and false, but turns out I'm wrong ; that it is well-documented.

While some people would find this news to be testimony shattering; I do not. I understand that the Restorer of the church was in no way perfect and did and said lots of things that many would find offensive, and I am not trying to justify his actions or do discredit his actions; I'm simply curious to see if anyone has any insight into this topic, I would like to learn more.

I understand that a couple of centuries ago, it was more common for men to marry much younger women, even though 15 sounds like it's kinda pushing it. But for the life of me I don't understand why he would marry women that already had husbands. Does anyone have any thoughts?

Cheers!

GAIA:

Hi Antispatula --

Yes, there are some folks who discover such things and unfortunately, it really throws them.

I think there are seveal things to keep in mind:

First, the first couple in whose marriage Joseph Smith officiated, was Lydia (Goldthwaite) Knight, and (Bishop) Newel Knight. Newell had been a Bishop in MIssouri during the dreadful persecutions, during which his first wife died; he and Lydia met when she "gathered" to Nauvoo, shortly after converting to the Church. Theirs is a really sweet love story, i encourage you to check it out someday.....

At any rate, during this ceremony, Joseph is said to have made some interesting observations. Lydia had been deserted by her previous (very abusive!) husband, and had never been able to find him to obtain a legal divorce, so there was some concern about the legalilties of this second marriage. Joseph evidently tried to comfort the young couple by telling them that civil marriages might not necesarily be honored by God -- especially if the marriage didn't "take"; and that he was being given instruction in the matter of marraiges, and would yet reveal many important truths -- this may have been an intimation of the princple of Celestial Marraige that was to come.

Secondly -- while we're often reminded about how women are supposed to "obey" their husbands (in righteousness), Joseph is reputed to have taught that women have a RIGHT to expect to be FULFILLED by their husbands -- and if those husbands are unable to do so, the wives may have the right to seek out another husband of higher priesthood, who WOULD so fulfill them --

Given by President Brigham Young in the Tabernacle in Great Salt Lake City Oct. 8th 1861. A. M.

(Please note, It's late, and while i've tried, i've not yet been able to verify this with my GospeLink program; i advise anyone to investigate further before taking this quote as fact):

"The second way in which and his priesthood, I have not revealed, except to few persons in this Church, and a few have received it from Joseph the prophet as well as myself. If a woman can find a man holding the keys of the preisthood [sic] with higher power and authority than her husband , and he is disposed to take her he can do so"

Blessings --

~Gaia

[a-train]

The Holy Spirit of Promise is the Comforter, even the Holy Ghost, in His sealing and ratifying capacity wherein He anoints the righteous with Divine Approval whereby their covenants are made binding both on earth and in Heaven.

The common example used to demonstrate this capacity is in Baptism and Confirmation. The unworthy can be baptized and receive the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. However, if they are unrepentant, they will not receive the Comforter or Holy Ghost. Their Baptism and Confirmation will not be valid or have efficacy until they become worthy and receive the Holy Ghost. Upon this reception, their ordinances are sealed and approved thereby. However, this seal can be broken if the covenants thereof are broken, the ramifications of which are grave.

In speaking on the subject of eternal marriage the LORD said: 'All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise... ...are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead.' (D&C 132:7)

Take a look at this, read the first Q and A:“Is it true that before a temple marriage is eternalized it must be sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise? Who may seal it?”

-a-train

[AnthonyB]

a-train,

I'd agree that God has to assent to convenants that we have with Him. In fact from my perspective it is always He who has initiated the convenants wiht us.

God may be the one who joins two people together but the covenant of marriage is between the couple with God as witness. (Along with those present.) I don't know the wording to the temple ceremony or what words you use in your civil ceremonies but I covenanted with my wife to forsake all others till death seperates us (and asked God's witness of that fact.)

Now I can see how you can say that if God didn't approve of the wedding covenant then it is no sin against God to break it, since He would be no true witness of it. However it would still be a breach of covenant with my wife. I don't believe in breaking covenants whether they were with people or God.

So if I became a Mormon, I would be free to divorce my wife, if she refused to become a Mormon because she would hold back my exaltation. Or I could say I'll stick with you for life but as soon as I'm dead I'm off with someone else.

(Sorry I find this very difficult to understand, it just seems so different to Jesus teaching about marriage in the NT, from my reading of it.)

[prisonchaplain]

This string strikes an interesting thought in me: the whole controversy surrounding Joseph's Smith's claims, supporters and critics, has a very Old Testament feel to it. This man is either the real voice crying in the wilderness, while the rest of us are tickling itching ears...or he is one of the many self-promoters who throughout history of gathered followings of various sizes and levels of success.

I'm doubtful this controversy will ever end, prior to the 2nd coming.

[a-train]

Now I can see how you can say that if God didn't approve of the wedding covenant then it is no sin against God to break it, since He would be no true witness of it. However it would still be a breach of covenant with my wife. I don't believe in breaking covenants whether they were with people or God.

So if I became a Mormon, I would be free to divorce my wife, if she refused to become a Mormon because she would hold back my exaltation. Or I could say I'll stick with you for life but as soon as I'm dead I'm off with someone else.

Uh-Oh. I think perhaps our signals may have crossed a little. My post (#11) was in answer to Annabelli, and should not be taken to answer the question of how Joseph Smith could have been sealed to more than one woman without breaking any vows entered into with Emma before the Restoration of Temple ordinances.

Please take Gaia's comments about Joseph Smith's understanding of civil marriage and the vows thereof at face value: unsubstantiated, and on the verge of rumor. The conclusions of which are highly speculative.

Civil marriage IS recognized by God and violation of marriage vows and/or commision of adultery IS SIN pure and simple in every case. A man cannot join the LDS Church and leave his wife to marry another because his first marriage wasn't in the Temple. Adulterers are excommunicated from the Church whether their marriage was solemnized in the Temple or not. If all you have is a Vegas Weekend Special, as long as the union is legally reckognized, if you are not keeping those vows, it is considered iniquity in the sight of God and the Church.

Further, a man breaking legal contracts or oaths of any kind is NOT worthy to enter the temple. Imagine I was engaged in shady business deals wherein I deceived others or ignored obligations I had entered into. I would not be worthy to enter into the temple or participate in sacred ordinances in the Church. God DOES recognize our word and our fulfillment of obligations into which we enter.

As I said before, the specifics of the vows and their efficacy engaged by the Prophet and his wife at their civil marriage before the Restoration of Temple Sealings, I do not know. The implications and so forth of which would therefore be pure speculation on my part. What I can at least tell you is that Emma and Joseph not only upheld their civil marriage, but were sealed in the Temple as well. As far as how they were able to enter into plural marriage without violating the vows of these first covenants, I cannot speak precisely.

If you were baptized into the LDS Church, you would NOT be 'free to divorce' your wife simply because she has no desire to come into the Church with you. If your attitude in this situation was: 'I'll stick with you for life but as soon as I'm dead I'm off with someone else.', you would be lacking in charity to say the very least, and I personally would wonder if you loved your spouse.

LDS people in such a situation typically hope their spouse will one day accept the gospel and be sealed to them, whether in this life or the next. This dynamic is no different than what exists among various Christians of diverse denominations. There are married couples wherein one of the two is a believer and the other is not. The believers hope and pray that their loved one will accept the gospel and take part of the blessings thereof with them. They are NOT desirous to leave them and the failure of their spouse to accept the Gospel grieves them.

-a-train

[AnthonyB]

a-train,

What Gaia siad disconcerted me. I was troubled by the implications.

My personal veiw is tha divorce is not to be sort under any circumstance except marital unfaithfulness and even then the believing spouse should always seek restoration, if at all possible.

[a-train]

a-train,

What Gaia siad disconcerted me. I was troubled by the implications.

My personal veiw is tha divorce is not to be sort under any circumstance except marital unfaithfulness and even then the believing spouse should always seek restoration, if at all possible.

This would be inline with LDS teaching.

Elder Dallin H. Oaks, an LDS Apostle, said this in General Conference last May:

'I strongly urge you and those who advise you to face up to the reality that for most marriage problems, the remedy is not divorce but repentance. Often the cause is not incompatibility but selfishness. The first step is not separation but reformation. Divorce is not an all-purpose solution, and it often creates long-term heartache.'

See his whole talk here.

In his talk he also quoted Jesus: 'Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.'

-a-train

[Pist]

I find it amazing that there are so many of you who try to analyze the somantics of Josephs marriages and not just SCREAM IN OUTCRY that He married another persons wife or daughter at all!!! I am disgusted by the whole thing.

[antispatula]

I find it amazing that there are so many of you who try to analyze the somantics of Josephs marriages and not just SCREAM IN OUTCRY that He married another persons wife or daughter at all!!! I am disgusted by the whole thing.

did you register on this board just to say that?

[shanstress70]

I find it amazing that there are so many of you who try to analyze the somantics of Josephs marriages and not just SCREAM IN OUTCRY that He married another persons wife or daughter at all!!! I am disgusted by the whole thing.

I totally agree, with the added word of 'child' before 'daughter'. And no, that wasn't me who registered as 'pist'.

[a-train]

'the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness' (Ether 12:26)

[Maureen]

a-train,

What Gaia siad disconcerted me. I was troubled by the implications.

My personal veiw is tha divorce is not to be sort under any circumstance except marital unfaithfulness and even then the believing spouse should always seek restoration, if at all possible.

What about abuse? Would you consider divorce acceptable due to abuse?

M.

[Gaia]

What Gaia siad disconcerted me. I was troubled by the implications.

My personal veiw is tha divorce is not to be sort under any circumstance except marital unfaithfulness and even then the believing spouse should always seek restoration, if at all possible.

GAIA:

Hello Anthony --

I'm sorry my statements troubled you.

Please understand that A-Train is quite right; my comments in NO way indicated any sort of "official" position, policy or doctrine of the Church, whatsoever; they were intended as information for those interested in matters of historical curiosity (especially the life and times of Joseph Smith) only, NOT in any way to indicate Church policy or doctrine.

I hope that clarifies things for you; and i deeply apologise for any confusion there might have been --

Blessings --

~Gaia

[prisonchaplain]

What about abuse? Would you consider divorce acceptable due to abuse?

M.

I want to answer this, because my church also argues for only the two exceptions--unfaithfulness or abandonment. When there is abuse of wife or child, we generally encourage separation. The abuser is told there will be no reconciliation unless counseling and progress are made. If the abuser is unrepentent, the abuse will turn into abandonment, and a divorce can be filed.

[shanstress70]

'the Lord spake unto me, saying: Fools mock, but they shall mourn; and my grace is sufficient for the meek, that they shall take no advantage of your weakness' (Ether 12:26)

No one's mocking... just voicing opinions. One question though, a-train: Would you allow your 14 yr old daughter to marry an apostle if they requested?

[Pist]

[

did you register on this board just to say that?

Yes Spatula, I did. We all start somewhere. I do not frequent these type of Chat rooms. I know where my limits lie, I know how far I can push them. I see nothing good coming from all the talk. Holy Hell, some of these guys LIVE for the soapbox, I on the other hand do not. I prefer action instead of talk.

Having said all of that dribble, there are times when I bang my head against the wall and state the obvious, Polygamy is one of those subjects, I dont get it. I dont get why others accept it. That fact scares me more than anything else. Having lived in the Middle East and now Utah, I see very little difference between the Muslum fanatic and the conservative Mormon. Both are misled at times.

BTW Spat, you just caused me to double my chat.

Cheers

P