Questioning

[rosie321]

<div class='quotemain'>

I had one of my most spiritual experiences in the Vatican in Italy during a Sunday palm service. That confused me greatly at first because I had always been taught only our church is true.

My wife's family attends a First Presbyterian Church in Arkansas. When we visit we always go as a family. The pastor gives great sermons usually well rooted in the New Testament and in the words of Christ. I'm not certain I have ever heard any false doctrine preached there. The music is wonderful and the prayers inspiring.

I have noticed that I seem to have a more spiritual experience there than my wife's family! They are there because of tradition and the social engagement. They never speak of the principles mentioned in Church. You see no sign within them that they felt anything particularly special. When I talk to them about what was said in Church they typically say something like: 'Perhaps you should discuss this with the Pastor.'

I can even say that I felt the Spirit there. But I would ask: 'Can I feel the Holy Ghost only when a Mormon speaks of the Gospel?' During the night of the Great Apostasy, there was no Priesthood holder to perfrom baptisms and confirmations, does this mean that people could not pray and speak of Christ? Could they not feel a witness of the truth by the Spirit? How did Parley P. Pratt have such a testimony of God and possess the power of revelation before becoming acquainted with the Church?

Should people speaking of Christ, singing praises, and offering prayers be given a cold and vacant feeling from God therein simply because they are not in an LDS Chapel? If you engage in prayers and in singing praises with non-members, should the experience be void of the Holy Ghost by virtue of their involvement? A great many people have come into this Church because of what they are taught in others. They were prepared by God.

The work of God is not limited to the work of the Restored Church, but it is unto all men.

-a-train

This is a good post:). I have enjoyed reading the dialogue. Having had "dark nights of the soul" myself its helpful to put things in perspective.

In the LDS faith there is the acceptance of the statement that it is the true church. This can lead to the impression that other faiths are completely false. But don't they all have precious truths? Can't God use those to touch us? Are they all inferior? Sometimes I think those from different faiths serve God more diligently and sincerely.

I owe a great debt to those of other faiths. For introducing me to the gospel and to Jesus Christ. For showing me how to care for and serve others. Sometimes, maybe because I have grown up this way I find myself more connected and easily reached by God in others faiths. Then I feel guilty that I might be having an LDS spiritual crisis or fear that maybe the church is not right after all. I don't always feel so easily reached by God in the LDS church. Some times I almost feel pushed away or overwhelmed. Despite those feelings I do go back to the LDS church but feel like a sheep in wolves clothes at times because I feel the way that I do. I am not trying to look for exits out of the LDS church. I don't want to be lukewarm either. I see much good in and out of the church. Other churches don't claim to be the only way either.

Its good to see others express the same thoughts and feelings.

[Aphrodite]

Aphrodite, you have some very valid points. I'm not going to defend my answer really. I guess I had to start somewhere. And I guess that for me was the Book of Mormon. Is my testimony based solely on that? I sure hope not. But it gave me a beginning. Somewhere to begin looking for the truth. But thanks, sincerely, for pointing out the flaw in my reasoning. It really gave me things to think about.

Princess you are right, we all have to start somewhere. Its where I started. But it has caused me problems because I was basing my testimony on a very small part of what the church is about. It has taken me a long time to come to the conclusion that I did in my post, but now I feel more comfortable with how I see the church. It has led to me 'downgrading' my membership I suppose, but I no longer feel the need to be 'perfect' like a lot of members do. I know Im not, I know I never will be, so Ive accepted it and feel comfortable and at peace. Some of the posts on here make me feel sad, usually from women desperate to know if they are being unfaithful by accident!! That is not the sort of pressure and guilt I want to put myself under, if I wanted that Id become a catholic. Im glad it helped you in some way. I wish Id been taught to question our beliefs more when I was younger, so I could come to my own conclusions without feeling confused and/or guilty like I did at first.

Aphrodite xx

[snipe123]

Hi Aphrodite,

I wanted to answer some of the things you said...not to give you a hard time by any means, just to give you some food for thought....

The church doesn't just suddenly become untrue. It's either true or it's not. There's no grey

Im sorry jason i dont agree with that. I think this is the problem for a lot of members going inactive. They struggle like SS and because they cant accept the whole entire truth unquestionably, they feel they are not good enough and therefore leave. If we were taught, look, even if you dont believe it all, theres a lot of good points to go on, so just work with what you feel comfortable with-then I think a lot less people would leave the church. Its the whole BLACK AND WHITE, RIGHT OR WRONG a lot of people struggle with, including myself. Nothing is ever that simple.

I think that the people you are describing are not focusing on what the atonement is all about...we are not good enough, or perfect by default...It is expected that we will fall into gross error...Christs blood makes us perfect when we live within the covenant and repent etc...I think we are taught the good points that you mention...in this church by definition and practice we are taught line upon line...nobody, and I mean nobody believes and accepts every single doctrine of this church instantly the moment they pray about The Book of Mormon and receive a testimony of its validity...it is true, that if the book is true then of course Joseph must have translated it etc, but that does not give you a testimony of everything else...that comes by living it as Jesus said...I think we (as a church in principle, not always practice)do let people work with what they are comfortable with...we don't make people go to the temple or serve in a calling or even make them believe a single principle...we invite them...if they feel guilty, which we all do at times, then that is an opportunity to change, and grow, repent, etc...Christ's blood makes us perfect when we do...

SS, I know what you mean about feeling the same about other religions. I had one of my most spiritual experiences in the Vatican in Italy during a Sunday palm service. That confused me greatly at first because I had always been taught only our church is true. Now I recognise they were worshipping the same God, therefore it felt right. Some aspects of Catholisism ARE true just as some aspects of any church are true. If people worship a higher being, then there you go, they are on the right track.

I like your comments above...It saddens me when I meet a Mormon who thinks we have a monopoly on truth...It was going to other churches that finally caused me to come back to this one after a three year absence...They softened my heart up a bit and chilled the anger I had misdirected at God...I went to other churches very often while on a mission in Texas, and have been to many others since...without exception, i have felt The Spirit at some point in the service, I have also felt the Spirit leave a service...One of the main jobs of The Spirit, is to testify to words that are spoken which are true...not just true words spoken within the walls of the Mormon church, but truth spoken in any church! I can't think of a single time where I didn't hear some truth in a church..."No man can confess that Jesus is The Christ, but by The Holy Ghost..."

Princess I have always been told this by my Dad/leaders etc too. Unfortunately, I think that basing ones entire testimony on that logic is damaging. I personally believe the book of mormon is true. Im pretty sure it is, although I cant know for certain. Id like to think so. That to me, does not necesarilly mean that absolutely everything we have done in this church from then on is right. Everytime I have questioned things on this board about prophets behaviours in the early church, Im always told, they are just men, they are not perfect. Exactly. Whilst I believe JS did find the plates by revelation, that does not necesarilly mean everything else he did/said/taught was 100% true. That is just a fact, as Ive been told, he was not perfect, which meant he made mistakes. And he did!!! So for that reason I cannot just say, well, because he translated the plates the church is true. It is better to find out through other channels like gaining a testimony of certain things individually, rather than encompassing your entire testimony based on one prophet. Because when you do hear of things that have happened or things JS did, you start to think maybe the church isnt true. If you work on your testimony FIRST and gain a strong one, then when you find out JS did things he wasnt supposed to, its easier to accept as you think, hey was a normal bloke like anyone, not divine and certainly not perfect.

I agree that basing ones entire testimony on this type of "reasoning" is precarious at best, and dangerous at worst...it is however a good starting point for someone who is struggling...If they already had a testimony of The Book of Mormon based on a spiritual witness, then they can relax a bit and not feel the need to reexamine that principle everytime they are presented with a difficult question regarding Joseph Smith, or some church doctrine, or historical tidbit...you can focus on the problem at hand and not revisit your entire testimony everytime we doubt something...A-train mentioned Jesus as the best starting point and I agree with that...

I still wonder why people feel guilt becuse they have doubts however...to have doubts is the opposite of having faith and it might be seen as a wrestle with our mortal nature and our spiritual one, which is what part of this life is about...it seems to me, that if you doubt something, this is a normal mortal reaction when faced with a question we do not have an immediate answer to...but is it sinful to have doubt? I think it is if we do nothing to cast out that doubt, and we might feel guilty if we pretend, or just go through the motions...I look at doubt as something like a diagnostic tool that tells us where something isn't quite right...it identifies an area where we need more information and more faith...it gives me something I can focus on...the areas of my testimony where I have doubted the most and then overcome those doubts, are perhaps the strongest parts of my testimony...

I also try not to make it a practice (not saying you do either) of examining every negative thing people have to say about the church...There is a negative spirit and atmosphere that accompanies such critical stuff, and I try to focus my time on examining things that are good, wholesome, Spirit filled and edifying rather than things that tear down and criticize...When the Spirit is with us, we learn so much faster and are so much more thoroughly convinced of things that are true, than when we hear the arguments (good or bad) of a man...

The forums are a good example...when I have found myself sucked into a controversial subject where there is heated debate, offense at the tiniest infraction, and criticism where people are getting ticked off and insulting, it amazes me how quickly the Spirit departs...but think about some of those possitive threads you read here, and the difference should be apparent...When your done, you feel blessed to have read something, rather than trying to figure out how your going to respond to the latest blast...

Anyway, I guess in summary, I think doubt is good when properly handled...Guilt is a good thing also when it helps us to repent and become better...where those two forces become destructive is when we wallow in them and do nothing to change it, or do not allow The Savior to help us...

[Gabelma]

Hey all. I'm really confused right now. I just don't feel that this is the true church, not sure if I ever did. I joined a little over two years ago, and I feel I've put an insane amount of effort into gaining testimonies, yet I can pray about a different church and get the same feelings. I'm seriously thinking of leaving the church. Help?

I have been praying a lot about what you wrote and hope you are still reading the thread. Do you keep a journal? its something that we are asked to do by the First Presidency but I had as a low priority, then I started, I started to see anwers to prayers and understandings I had that I didn't know or would have forgotten about. Other religons are my big temptation - if you can borrow or buy a copy I recommend reading Religions of the World from a Latter Day Saint View by Spencer J Palmer its very interesting and may help yo uunderstand your feelings

-Charley

[SaulsSong]

I appreciate all the posts and effort everyone has exerted. I thought I'd give you an update. I've firmly decided to walk in the ways of Christ, even by the power and covenants fully extant in His true Church. Several parts of my life were in disharmony with Him and His teachings. Firstly, the desire to be faithful and believing was in my heart waiting for me to act on it. My thirst for truth wasn't ill-placed, I was just searching it out in an entirely contrary manner to the Father's will. I convinced myself that I needed to find the truth in a different way however truth is truth and the eternal laws of finding it have not changed. Therefore, this is where I did greatly err and allowed falsehood to enter in. In all honesty, my testimony of the truthfulness of this Church and of the Savior's love for me is quite strengthened in and through this experience. Thanks to all who have offered support and advice, as well as prayer and love. Peace be unto each of you.

[Elphaba]

I appreciate all the posts and effort everyone has exerted. I thought I'd give you an update. I've firmly decided to walk in the ways of Christ, even by the power and covenants fully extant in His true Church. Several parts of my life were in disharmony with Him and His teachings. Firstly, the desire to be faithful and believing was in my heart waiting for me to act on it. My thirst for truth wasn't ill-placed, I was just searching it out in an entirely contrary manner to the Father's will. I convinced myself that I needed to find the truth in a different way however truth is truth and the eternal laws of finding it have not changed. Therefore, this is where I did greatly err and allowed falsehood to enter in. In all honesty, my testimony of the truthfulness of this Church and of the Savior's love for me is quite strengthened in and through this experience. Thanks to all who have offered support and advice, as well as prayer and love. Peace be unto each of you.

What a lovely post. You express yourself beautifully.

I wish you peace as well.

Elphaba

[Elphaba]

My wife's family attends a First Presbyterian Church in Arkansas. When we visit we always go as a family. The pastor gives great sermons usually well rooted in the New Testament and in the words of Christ. I'm not certain I have ever heard any false doctrine preached there. The music is wonderful and the prayers inspiring.

I have noticed that I seem to have a more spiritual experience there than my wife's family! They are there because of tradition and the social engagement. They never speak of the principles mentioned in Church. You see no sign within them that they felt anything particularly special. When I talk to them about what was said in Church they typically say something like: 'Perhaps you should discuss this with the Pastor.

Hi a-train,

I know this isn't exactly the same thing, but your post reminded me of how I feel when I discuss the Church's history with my family members. Their response is often similar to "Perhaps you should discuss this with the Pastor." Actually, it's more like "Why are you telling me this and why do you care?"

One of my all-time favorite stories is of Jane Manning James. Briefly, though never a slave, Jane was a free black woman who joined the church at 19. In 1842, Jane and her family traveled to Nauvoo, walking most of the way, which amounted to 800 miles.

Jane says: “We walked until our shoes were worn out, and our feet became sore and cracked open and bled until you could see the whole print of our feet with blood on the ground. We stopped and united in prayer to the Lord; we asked God the Eternal Father to heal our feet. Our prayers were answered and our feet were healed forthwith.”

Unfortunately, by the time Jane and her family reached Nauvoo, the townspeople were not very welcoming. However, she was given directions to the Prophet's house.

(Just writing about it I'm choking up.) Once she entered Joseph and Emma's home, Jane recalls, “Brother Joseph took a chair and sat down by me and said, “You have been the head of this little band, haven’t you!” I answered, “Yes sir!” He then said, “God bless you! Now I would like you to relate your experience in your travels.”

After all she had been through, to finally be treated with such kindness, and to have it come from Joseph and Emma, touches me deeply.

But, like I say, when I try to explain how I feel about this to my family, they look at me as if I am nuts!

Elphaba

[Aphrodite]

Hi Aphrodite,

I wanted to answer some of the things you said...not to give you a hard time by any means, just to give you some food for thought....

<div class='quotemain'>

The church doesn't just suddenly become untrue. It's either true or it's not. There's no grey

Im sorry jason i dont agree with that. I think this is the problem for a lot of members going inactive. They struggle like SS and because they cant accept the whole entire truth unquestionably, they feel they are not good enough and therefore leave. If we were taught, look, even if you dont believe it all, theres a lot of good points to go on, so just work with what you feel comfortable with-then I think a lot less people would leave the church. Its the whole BLACK AND WHITE, RIGHT OR WRONG a lot of people struggle with, including myself. Nothing is ever that simple.

I think that the people you are describing are not focusing on what the atonement is all about...we are not good enough, or perfect by default...It is expected that we will fall into gross error...Christs blood makes us perfect when we live within the covenant and repent etc...I think we are taught the good points that you mention...in this church by definition and practice we are taught line upon line...nobody, and I mean nobody believes and accepts every single doctrine of this church instantly the moment they pray about The Book of Mormon and receive a testimony of its validity...it is true, that if the book is true then of course Joseph must have translated it etc, but that does not give you a testimony of everything else...that comes by living it as Jesus said...I think we (as a church in principle, not always practice)do let people work with what they are comfortable with...we don't make people go to the temple or serve in a calling or even make them believe a single principle...we invite them...if they feel guilty, which we all do at times, then that is an opportunity to change, and grow, repent, etc...Christ's blood makes us perfect when we do...

SS, I know what you mean about feeling the same about other religions. I had one of my most spiritual experiences in the Vatican in Italy during a Sunday palm service. That confused me greatly at first because I had always been taught only our church is true. Now I recognise they were worshipping the same God, therefore it felt right. Some aspects of Catholisism ARE true just as some aspects of any church are true. If people worship a higher being, then there you go, they are on the right track.

I like your comments above...It saddens me when I meet a Mormon who thinks we have a monopoly on truth...It was going to other churches that finally caused me to come back to this one after a three year absence...They softened my heart up a bit and chilled the anger I had misdirected at God...I went to other churches very often while on a mission in Texas, and have been to many others since...without exception, i have felt The Spirit at some point in the service, I have also felt the Spirit leave a service...One of the main jobs of The Spirit, is to testify to words that are spoken which are true...not just true words spoken within the walls of the Mormon church, but truth spoken in any church! I can't think of a single time where I didn't hear some truth in a church..."No man can confess that Jesus is The Christ, but by The Holy Ghost..."

Princess I have always been told this by my Dad/leaders etc too. Unfortunately, I think that basing ones entire testimony on that logic is damaging. I personally believe the book of mormon is true. Im pretty sure it is, although I cant know for certain. Id like to think so. That to me, does not necesarilly mean that absolutely everything we have done in this church from then on is right. Everytime I have questioned things on this board about prophets behaviours in the early church, Im always told, they are just men, they are not perfect. Exactly. Whilst I believe JS did find the plates by revelation, that does not necesarilly mean everything else he did/said/taught was 100% true. That is just a fact, as Ive been told, he was not perfect, which meant he made mistakes. And he did!!! So for that reason I cannot just say, well, because he translated the plates the church is true. It is better to find out through other channels like gaining a testimony of certain things individually, rather than encompassing your entire testimony based on one prophet. Because when you do hear of things that have happened or things JS did, you start to think maybe the church isnt true. If you work on your testimony FIRST and gain a strong one, then when you find out JS did things he wasnt supposed to, its easier to accept as you think, hey was a normal bloke like anyone, not divine and certainly not perfect.

I agree that basing ones entire testimony on this type of "reasoning" is precarious at best, and dangerous at worst...it is however a good starting point for someone who is struggling...If they already had a testimony of The Book of Mormon based on a spiritual witness, then they can relax a bit and not feel the need to reexamine that principle everytime they are presented with a difficult question regarding Joseph Smith, or some church doctrine, or historical tidbit...you can focus on the problem at hand and not revisit your entire testimony everytime we doubt something...A-train mentioned Jesus as the best starting point and I agree with that...

I still wonder why people feel guilt becuse they have doubts however...to have doubts is the opposite of having faith and it might be seen as a wrestle with our mortal nature and our spiritual one, which is what part of this life is about...it seems to me, that if you doubt something, this is a normal mortal reaction when faced with a question we do not have an immediate answer to...but is it sinful to have doubt? I think it is if we do nothing to cast out that doubt, and we might feel guilty if we pretend, or just go through the motions...I look at doubt as something like a diagnostic tool that tells us where something isn't quite right...it identifies an area where we need more information and more faith...it gives me something I can focus on...the areas of my testimony where I have doubted the most and then overcome those doubts, are perhaps the strongest parts of my testimony...

I also try not to make it a practice (not saying you do either) of examining every negative thing people have to say about the church...There is a negative spirit and atmosphere that accompanies such critical stuff, and I try to focus my time on examining things that are good, wholesome, Spirit filled and edifying rather than things that tear down and criticize...When the Spirit is with us, we learn so much faster and are so much more thoroughly convinced of things that are true, than when we hear the arguments (good or bad) of a man...

The forums are a good example...when I have found myself sucked into a controversial subject where there is heated debate, offense at the tiniest infraction, and criticism where people are getting ticked off and insulting, it amazes me how quickly the Spirit departs...but think about some of those possitive threads you read here, and the difference should be apparent...When your done, you feel blessed to have read something, rather than trying to figure out how your going to respond to the latest blast...

Anyway, I guess in summary, I think doubt is good when properly handled...Guilt is a good thing also when it helps us to repent and become better...where those two forces become destructive is when we wallow in them and do nothing to change it, or do not allow The Savior to help us...

nice post isaac

[SaulsSong]

<div class='quotemain'>I appreciate all the posts and effort everyone has exerted. I thought I'd give you an update. I've firmly decided to walk in the ways of Christ, even by the power and covenants fully extant in His true Church. Several parts of my life were in disharmony with Him and His teachings. Firstly, the desire to be faithful and believing was in my heart waiting for me to act on it. My thirst for truth wasn't ill-placed, I was just searching it out in an entirely contrary manner to the Father's will. I convinced myself that I needed to find the truth in a different way however truth is truth and the eternal laws of finding it have not changed. Therefore, this is where I did greatly err and allowed falsehood to enter in. In all honesty, my testimony of the truthfulness of this Church and of the Savior's love for me is quite strengthened in and through this experience. Thanks to all who have offered support and advice, as well as prayer and love. Peace be unto each of you.

What a lovely post. You express yourself beautifully.

I wish you peace as well.

Elphaba

Thank you! *smiles*

[a-train]

But, like I say, when I try to explain how I feel about this to my family, they look at me as if I am nuts!

Elphaba

So, Just so I am clued in right, your family is LDS? Why do they think you are nuts? I mean...

...clearly you can't be nuts. Perhaps a nut, but not nuts plural, thats overkill.

-a-train

[Elphaba]

So, Just so I am clued in right, your family is LDS? Why do they think you are nuts? I mean...

...clearly you can't be nuts. Perhaps a nut, but not nuts plural, thats overkill.

Depends on who you ask.

Yes, they are all LDS, and no they don't really think I'm nuts, just an apostate.

No, they love me and never give me a bad time about that. But what frustrates me is I have such a huge love of Mormon history and immense admiration for the first members and the pioneers. There is no way I could have done what they did, and I find myself moved to tears often when I read about them.

Yet, for example, when I try to tell my LDS mother about a wonderful story I've just read, she looks at me as if she's calculating in her head how much longer she has to sit there and stare at me as if she's really interested.

So, to be honest, I get confused. Me, the atheist, is more excited about LDS history than my LDS family, or to be fair, really my mother and one sibling. I'm afraid to try with the others.

I think that's why I like coming to the board. At least a few people here listen to me.

Elphaba

[pushka]

My wife's family attends a First Presbyterian Church in Arkansas. When we visit we always go as a family. The pastor gives great sermons usually well rooted in the New Testament and in the words of Christ. I'm not certain I have ever heard any false doctrine preached there. The music is wonderful and the prayers inspiring.

I have noticed that I seem to have a more spiritual experience there than my wife's family! They are there because of tradition and the social engagement. They never speak of the principles mentioned in Church. You see no sign within them that they felt anything particularly special. When I talk to them about what was said in Church they typically say something like: 'Perhaps you should discuss this with the Pastor.'

I can even say that I felt the Spirit there. But I would ask: 'Can I feel the Holy Ghost only when a Mormon speaks of the Gospel?' During the night of the Great Apostasy, there was no Priesthood holder to perfrom baptisms and confirmations, does this mean that people could not pray and speak of Christ? Could they not feel a witness of the truth by the Spirit? How did Parley P. Pratt have such a testimony of God and possess the power of revelation before becoming acquainted with the Church?

Should people speaking of Christ, singing praises, and offering prayers be given a cold and vacant feeling from God therein simply because they are not in an LDS Chapel? If you engage in prayers and in singing praises with non-members, should the experience be void of the Holy Ghost by virtue of their involvement? A great many people have come into this Church because of what they are taught in others. They were prepared by God.

The work of God is not limited to the work of the Restored Church, but it is unto all men.

-a-train

I think I might relate a little to your family when you attended their church service with them...When I was 14 and was 1st considering attending the LDS church, one of my main reasons was that when I attended RC Mass, I never really felt anything...the sermons (the Gospel reading and readings from the apostles) were like greek to me at the time, and the priest waffled on so much in the Homily that I couldn't relate to it at all...therefore the Mass was quite boring..

When I attended the LDS church the congregation seemed so much more proactive...all got a chance to join in at different points in the service, on different occasions..I was even invited to do talks myself, even tho I was never Baptised...it made the Gospel more real to me...I understood the Bible more and the other scriptures that were used, and seemed to get a lot more from it than I had from my Roman Catholic upbringing...so I can understand that a sort of complacency has set in with your family, a-train...perhaps the message of the Gospel, and the feeling of the Holy Spirit's presence is lost in 'waffle'?