Questioning

[SaulsSong]

Hey all. I'm really confused right now. I just don't feel that this is the true church, not sure if I ever did. I joined a little over two years ago, and I feel I've put an insane amount of effort into gaining testimonies, yet I can pray about a different church and get the same feelings. I'm seriously thinking of leaving the church. Help?

[the_jason]

Well, first I'd have to question your testimony at the time you were baptized. Were you 100% sure it was true, or did you still have a lot of doubts? Perhaps you weren't ready to be baptized when you were. The church doesn't just suddenly become untrue. It's either true or it's not. There's no grey. There's nothing wrong with being a member and still having doubts, but you do need to make a decision. Do you have a desire and willingness to find out if it's true? If so, do everything necessary (pray, read scriptures, pray, listen to hymns, pray, and then pray) to gain that testimony. Do you simply not care one way or another? If so, perhaps all parties would be best served if you do leave the church.

The choice is yours, but you have to commit one way or another. Waffles are good to eat for breakfast, but not so good as members of the church.

[SaulsSong]

I believed it was true. I didn't have doubts about the church. I thought about those things you've brought up before. Right now I'm in so much turmoil. I do desire to know, with all my heart.

[the_jason]

There is only one source of your feelings, and you know who he is. He wants you to doubt. He wants you to run when it gets too burdensome. Only those who can cast him aside and look at the ultimate goal will be the ones who obtain salvation and the promised blessings. It doesn't appear you need anyone's help on this. You already know what you need to do.

[SaulsSong]

When I pray it feels wrong to think about Father and Son separately. I don't know which to pray to and I end up not being able to pray at all. I desire to know and yet no answer comes.

[the_jason]

You pray to Heavenly Father. You close in the name of Jesus, who atoned for our sins.

Answers come in a variety of ways. They rarely come immediately following a prayer. For me, they most often come as I'm reading the scriptures, or just throughout my day. We have to be allowing the Spirit to testify though. If we pray and then get up and watch TV, if we don't study the scriptures, if we don't do everything we can that is condusive to the Spirit, the answer won't come, for the Lord doth not dwell in unholy temples. The most important thing to remember is that the Lord answers us in his time, not ours. The time in which we think we need the answer the most are rarely the same as the Lords time. Be patient, have faith, and don't be discouraged. Have sincere desire and your answer will come. I guarantee it.

[SaulsSong]

Thank you. I'll ponder on these things.

[the_jason]

Where in WA are you?

[SaulsSong]

Lynnwood, you?

[the_jason]

Vancouver. Originally from Portland.

[SaulsSong]

Vancouver. Originally from Portland.

Ah, okay, cool.

[Josie]

SS,

Don't try to take on the whole thing at once. First you have to believe the Book of Mormon is true, if that is not true, then none of it is true. Read it, if you have to even read it over again, from the first time you read it, and pray about that and ask if that is true. If it is, then you know that everything else is true. So, instead of trying to take on everything at once, just center on that one thing, and find out for yourself if it is true, and that will help everything else fall into place for you.

The_Jason is correct, you pray to your Heavenly Father and the reason we pray to Him, is because He is our Father in Heaven. We pray through His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ to God the Father.

This is something each of us have to find out for ourselves and sometimes it comes very easy, and sometimes we have to work at finding it. You are a good person and your desires are sincere. The Lord will give you the answers you are looking for. Just remember that His time is not always our time. He answers us when He knows we are ready for His answer. My prayers are with you.

Josie

[the_jason]

The_Jason is correct

Can we use this statement as the theme for LDS Talk? I think it would really make the site complete.

[SaulsSong]

I hope you're joking.

[Josie]

<div class='quotemain'>

The_Jason is correct

Can we use this statement as the theme for LDS Talk? I think it would really make the site complete.

I hope you're joking.

I was referring to one item of what you said The_Jason, remember; none of us are perfect. But, you do ok, LOL... Just so your head does not swell up tooooooooo LARGE!

[Gwen]

though the book of mormon is a common starting place i don't think that is a required starting place. each person is different. it is one step and principle at a time though, that seems to be a requirement. i've yet to meet or hear of someone that has gotten it all at once with no work or process to it. line upon line. i find the problem for me comes when i forget what i already knew and let myself question things i've already learned; that's where the trouble starts. stay the course, you know what you know, work on the rest one peice at a time.

[a-train]

The starting place is faith in Jesus Christ and the operative principle in obtaining revelation is repentance.

Do I believe in Jesus Christ?

Am I engaged in transgressions that will keep me from His Spirit?

Am I fully penitent concerning past transgressions?

These questions unlock the flow of revelation.

'And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them. Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.' (Ether 12:27-28)

Build yourself upon the rock of Christ by living every word that proceeds from Him. Let virtue garnish your thoughts unceasingly. Any time you receive thoughts of brightness and hope, remember it! Take note of any feeling from the Spirit, and if you cannot get any, go to repentance.

Repentance and revelation are inseparable.

If you go longer than 24 hours without scriptures and prayers, you are missing necessary nourishment.

-a-train

[Kasten]

Hey all. I'm really confused right now. I just don't feel that this is the true church, not sure if I ever did. I joined a little over two years ago, and I feel I've put an insane amount of effort into gaining testimonies, yet I can pray about a different church and get the same feelings. I'm seriously thinking of leaving the church. Help?

You know, I went through a similar time. I'm a typical raised in the church Mormon. I was going to BYU-Idaho and attending my religion class, when I began having doubts. Did I really believe what I was being taught? I was confused! I expressed my concerns to my father (a stout member), and he asked me one question. Did I believe that the Book of Mormon was a true record. That, for some reason, was a clear "yes." If the Book of Mormon is true, that makes Joseph Smith a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet then . . .

So I continued going to my religion class. The assignment was in Alma. And I found these verses, and they have become some of my favorite ever since. The verse was Alma 32:27. It basically says that if you want to believe, you can "experiment" upon the words and gain a testimony. You really need to read the chapter to put it into perspective, because then it compares it to a seed, and how it grows. I would highly recommend those scriptures, think about it, and do . . . whatever.

Good Luck.

[Aphrodite]

The church doesn't just suddenly become untrue. It's either true or it's not. There's no grey

Im sorry jason i dont agree with that. I think this is the problem for a lot of members going inactive. They struggle like SS and because they cant accept the whole entire truth unquestionably, they feel they are not good enough and therefore leave. If we were taught, look, even if you dont believe it all, theres a lot of good points to go on, so just work with what you feel comfortable with-then I think a lot less people would leave the church. Its the whole BLACK AND WHITE, RIGHT OR WRONG a lot of people struggle with, including myself. Nothing is ever that simple.

SS, I know what you mean about feeling the same about other religions. I had one of my most spiritual experiences in the Vatican in Italy during a Sunday palm service. That confused me greatly at first because I had always been taught only our church is true. Now I recognise they were worshipping the same God, therefore it felt right. Some aspects of Catholisism ARE true just as some aspects of any church are true. If people worship a higher being, then there you go, they are on the right track.

Did I believe that the Book of Mormon was a true record. That, for some reason, was a clear "yes." If the Book of Mormon is true, that makes Joseph Smith a prophet. If Joseph Smith was a prophet then . . .

Princess I have always been told this by my Dad/leaders etc too. Unfortunately, I think that basing ones entire testimony on that logic is damaging. I personally believe the book of mormon is true. Im pretty sure it is, although I cant know for certain. Id like to think so. That to me, does not necesarilly mean that absolutely everything we have done in this church from then on is right. Everytime I have questioned things on this board about prophets behaviours in the early church, Im always told, they are just men, they are not perfect. Exactly. Whilst I believe JS did find the plates by revelation, that does not necesarilly mean everything else he did/said/taught was 100% true. That is just a fact, as Ive been told, he was not perfect, which meant he made mistakes. And he did!!! So for that reason I cannot just say, well, because he translated the plates the church is true. It is better to find out through other channels like gaining a testimony of certain things individually, rather than encompassing your entire testimony based on one prophet. Because when you do hear of things that have happened or things JS did, you start to think maybe the church isnt true. If you work on your testimony FIRST and gain a strong one, then when you find out JS did things he wasnt supposed to, its easier to accept as you think, hey was a normal bloke like anyone, not divine and certainly not perfect.

[the_jason]

The church doesn't just suddenly become untrue. It's either true or it's not. There's no grey

Im sorry jason i dont agree with that. I think this is the problem for a lot of members going inactive. They struggle like SS and because they cant accept the whole entire truth unquestionably, they feel they are not good enough and therefore leave. If we were taught, look, even if you dont believe it all, theres a lot of good points to go on, so just work with what you feel comfortable with-then I think a lot less people would leave the church. Its the whole BLACK AND WHITE, RIGHT OR WRONG a lot of people struggle with, including myself. Nothing is ever that simple.

SS, I know what you mean about feeling the same about other religions. I had one of my most spiritual experiences in the Vatican in Italy during a Sunday palm service. That confused me greatly at first because I had always been taught only our church is true. Now I recognise they were worshipping the same God, therefore it felt right. Some aspects of Catholisism ARE true just as some aspects of any church are true. If people worship a higher being, then there you go, they are on the right track.

You misunderstood me. A person may lose his testimony overnight, but that doesn't mean the gospel itself is untrue. The gospel has either always been true or it's always been false. The truthfulness or untruthfulness of the gospel does not change. Only our individual beliefs change.

[Dr T]

The truthfulness or untruthfulness of the gospel does not change. Only our individual beliefs change.

I agree. Gospel=the good news of Jesus is either true or false. It is our acceptance and feelings that change. That is why it is so important to base belief on a solid foundation.

[Doctor Steuss]

D&C 46:13-14

[Kasten]

Aphrodite, you have some very valid points. I'm not going to defend my answer really. I guess I had to start somewhere. And I guess that for me was the Book of Mormon. Is my testimony based solely on that? I sure hope not. But it gave me a beginning. Somewhere to begin looking for the truth. But thanks, sincerely, for pointing out the flaw in my reasoning. It really gave me things to think about.

[Gaia]

Hey all. I'm really confused right now. I just don't feel that this is the true church, not sure if I ever did. I joined a little over two years ago, and I feel I've put an insane amount of effort into gaining testimonies, yet I can pray about a different church and get the same feelings. I'm seriously thinking of leaving the church. Help?

GAIA:

Hello SaulsSong--

It always bothers me that whenever someone has a crisis of faith, (some folks) seem to need to attach blame -- and invariably, it's put on the person having the crisis, or on Satan.

It's entirely possible to just have (quite legitimate!) questions or doubts;

Furthermore, i think the Lord much more appreciates someone who actually THINKS about and QUESTIONS things, rather than blindly and automatically accepting everything --

(Revelation 3:15-16.)

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

There are literally dozens of quotes from General Authorities of the Church, encouraging people to THINK ABOUT, SEEK and PRAY for their own testimonies, rather than just accepting everything they're told --

For just a couple of examples, Brigham Young said:

"What a pity it would be, if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by him.

I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken the influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way.

Let every man and woman know, themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not. This has been my exhortation continually."

(JD 9:150)

"How easy it would be for your leaders to lead you to destruction, unless you actually know the mind and will of the spirit yourselves." (JD 4:368)

"I do not wish any Latter-day Saint in this world, nor in heaven, to be satisfied with anything I do, unless the Spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ, the spirit of revelation, makes them satisfied...

Suppose that the people were heedless, that they manifested no concern with regard to the things of the kingdom of God, but threw the whole burden upon the leaders of the people, saying, 'If the brethren who take charge of matters are satisfied, we are,' this is not pleasing in the sight of the Lord."

(JD 3:45)

* * *

So i hope that helps you settle the question of whether it's "all right" to have such questions and doubts, and whether there's any "blame" to be (automatically) attached.

I don't think anyone but you and the Lord, and possibly your Priesthood authorities -- those with direct and immediate Priesthood stewardship over you -- have the right to question your faithfulness or obedience to the Gospel, so i will leave you to take that up with the Lord and your Bishop/ Stake President.

So let's address your questions with (what i feel are) some important principles / information:

Are you familiar with the idea of the "Dark Night of the Soul"?? It's a wonderfully descriptive and evocative term, used to describe what many people -- in fact virtually all sincere spiritual seekers -- seem to experience, at some time or another -- a period of spiritual darkness, discouragement, and crisis of faith.

Despite these uncomfortable feelings that can often accompany it, a "Dark NIght of the Soul" can (eventually) become a very positive experience in one's spiritual development --

It can be a way for the soul to PUSH the individual toward spiritual enlightenment and answers that really matter, rather than rote, easy, trite bromides.

Here's a quote from an article i wrote on "Spiritual Emergence", that may (hopefully) be relevant to your experience:

You may be .... experiencing what Transpersonal psychologists call a ”Spiritual Emergency“ or perhaps more positively, ”Spiritual Emergence.“ This psychic and spiritual awakening cracks the comfortable, insulating shell of the ”status quo“ that might have surrounded you. It shakes you awake, boosts...energy, and blasts open the spiritual/ psychic receptors.

It is ”a kind of birth pang..... Breakthroughs are often very painful, acute and dramatic. It pushes you through the door of [spiritual] transformation, renewal, growth -- ”ready“ or not!

For more on the "Dark Night of the Soul", see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul

There are lots of other links to the topic and to references that may be helpful -- if you "Google" it.

Also, feel free to email me if you'd like to discuss this further, privately --

Blessings and Good Luck to you, dear Brother --

~Gaia

[a-train]

I had one of my most spiritual experiences in the Vatican in Italy during a Sunday palm service. That confused me greatly at first because I had always been taught only our church is true.

My wife's family attends a First Presbyterian Church in Arkansas. When we visit we always go as a family. The pastor gives great sermons usually well rooted in the New Testament and in the words of Christ. I'm not certain I have ever heard any false doctrine preached there. The music is wonderful and the prayers inspiring.

I have noticed that I seem to have a more spiritual experience there than my wife's family! They are there because of tradition and the social engagement. They never speak of the principles mentioned in Church. You see no sign within them that they felt anything particularly special. When I talk to them about what was said in Church they typically say something like: 'Perhaps you should discuss this with the Pastor.'

I can even say that I felt the Spirit there. But I would ask: 'Can I feel the Holy Ghost only when a Mormon speaks of the Gospel?' During the night of the Great Apostasy, there was no Priesthood holder to perfrom baptisms and confirmations, does this mean that people could not pray and speak of Christ? Could they not feel a witness of the truth by the Spirit? How did Parley P. Pratt have such a testimony of God and possess the power of revelation before becoming acquainted with the Church?

Should people speaking of Christ, singing praises, and offering prayers be given a cold and vacant feeling from God therein simply because they are not in an LDS Chapel? If you engage in prayers and in singing praises with non-members, should the experience be void of the Holy Ghost by virtue of their involvement? A great many people have come into this Church because of what they are taught in others. They were prepared by God.

The work of God is not limited to the work of the Restored Church, but it is unto all men.

-a-train