Sign in to follow this  
LiterateParakeet

What Teens Wish Their Parents Knew When Addressing the Issue of Pornography _ Fight the New Drug

Recommended Posts

@Vort  and @seashmore

Fight the New Drug is a group who visits schools and talks to kids about avoiding porn, like the modern "Just Say No" campaign.  

#1 - It's addictive  
      So saying "Just stop it" is not helpful.  
      Discussion about dopamine, and how alcohol and tobacco used to be considered safe and harmless
      Very young children becoming addicted

#2 It's different than when you were a kid.
      When we (parents) were kids, you had to do some work to get porn (find a source etc)  

     The Four A's
     Accessible - every Internet linked devise is a potential source
    Affordable - yes, porn is a booming industry because they charge fees, but they offer teasers to get people hooked, and for teens those teasers are enough to get them          and keep them hooked until they are old enough to pay 
     Anonymous - there are no obvious physical signs like with drugs and alcohol.  There are mental/emotional signs but they are similar to things teens normally do anyway like being moody.
    Addictive 

Average age of exposure 9 yrs old!

9 out of 10 youth, ages 8-16 yrs have been exposed to porn


#3  Youth are being TARGETED by the porn industry.  The industry targets them because they know their product is addictive, hook them now, have a client for life.   Some parents of teens struggling with porn wrongly assume their child went looking for it....
       Marketing Techniques
          -teaser images
          -innocent word searche
          -cartoon characters and child icons are often drawn as porn
          -pop ups/banner ads
         -flash games

#4  You need to talk to them  - the days of the one time birds and bees talk are gone, you need to talk to them regularly, and don't wait until they are 16 or it will be too late.
        You need to say more than "you can't watch this,"  explain family values AND science of addiction.  
        STAY CALM!   Some kids email the Fight the New Drug presenters and say, "I tried to talk to my parents, and I'll never do that again.  They freaked out."   Love and listen.
                

        1.  Ask questions
        2.  Teach them the facts - science
        3.  Teach them family values 
        4. Repeat

#5 You are part of the solution.   Give them support, and counseling if needed.  
       Stay calm
       Set a standard WITH your family.  Don't just tell them what not to do, get them involved in the fight against porn.
       Be an example
     Over and over,  throughout the presentation he mentioned young kid/teens who email them and say they need help but they don't know where to turn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

NOTE: I did NOT watch the video up there yet.

I went to one of their seminars and items recently.  I WAS VERY disappointed.  They stated a LOT of information that was...simply put...untrue.  Some of it has been directly countered by research, and some of what they stated is the equivalent of false items that are propagated in social media, but have no backing in science.

Much of what they do is scare tactics. The presentation I went to tried to firehose you with supposed facts, and some of the information is pretty biased rather than the scientific approach that they try to portray.

This was just what I saw at the presentation that we were at...rather than what is in the video (I have not watched the video, hopefully it is FAR better than what we had at the presentation in our area from this group).

I think that in some ways this groups intentions are good, and those that are able to kick a terrible habit (and some times it may be an addiction, but I think at times what this group labels as an addiction can also include those who just have a terribly sinful habit) and had it work in their life, it's a good thing.  I think they have a few presenters (I believe the one we had related their personal story in this regards) that have had problems with pornography in the past and overcame these problems.  If it helps someone, then more power to that individual.

However, overall, I think there are far better programs out there than the one that they are promoting.  There are programs out there that are based more on science and a scientific approach than what I felt was presented by that group.  If one wants a more faith based approach, I think there are better programs for that as well (including the LDS's own addiction programs most likely).

I was lucky though, when my kids were growing up, we really didn't have the internet around that much.  Half the kids were out of the house before we even got a dial-up, and the rest were out before we got anything near high speed internet.  If even a quarter of the horror stories this group told were actually true in any form, it seems it can be a pretty harsh world for parents with children today.

 

 

PS: I do not know about the video, but one of the pushes they had in the presentation they gave us was trying to get us to download or use their applications of which I believe they get reimbursements and other things for when you do research of WHY they pushed these things.  Our presentation had a HUGE push towards several programs that are from this company.  That is perhaps one of the other reasons it turned me off in that presentation, it seemed more of a business push to get us to buy or use their product rather than trying to truly give us a non-biased and more scientific approach of informing us.

It should be noted that a little while ago several neuroscientists and psychologists wrote about FTND using inaccurate and wrong information.  One of these was headed by Nicole Prause who is one of the lead Neuroscientists who have done research into the pornography addiction and various programs and have had some of their research inaccurately portrayed or quoted by FtnD.  Another in this group would be James Cantor a psychologist (Ph.D) who specializes in sex addiction and perversions.  I would not say these individuals are exactly the MOST MORAL of individuals in regards to their personal lives, but scientifically speaking, they have had some problems with the way FtND presents their research and whether it's portrayed accurately or not.

HOWEVER, if this program helps people kick pornography out of their lives, good for them.  The Only real objection I think I had was that at the presentation I went to was that it seemed they were trying to sell their stuff to us when I went thinking it was just an informative presentation for parents of kids (or in my case, grandparents).

 

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Is the word "Addiction" being over used? 

https://fightthenewdrug.org/word-addiction-overused/

They may have updated their stuff since we saw their presentation.  Stating something like this probably would have gone over better than how they did address it with us.

I don't think the word addiction is being over used in the PROFESSIONAL world...but I think it might be as they say with some of the rest of us. 

It is an interesting non-profit that someone has chosen to make their living off of.  If it helps people kick it out of their lives though, good for them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

NOTE: I did NOT watch the video up there yet.

I went to one of their seminars and items recently.  I WAS VERY disappointed.  They stated a LOT of information that was...simply put...untrue.  Some of it has been directly countered by research, and some of what they stated is the equivalent of false items that are propagated in social media, but have no backing in science.

What?  You didn't watch the video, but you have all kinds of criticism?   

If you are going to criticize at least be more specific.  What information wasn't true?  What has been countered by research?  Show me the research.  What false items?  
You say there are better organizations out there.  Tell us some of them, I'll look them up.  

Give us something more substantial to work with here than vague claims about a presentation that you saw, that we have no access to. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, LiterateParakeet said:

What?  You didn't watch the video, but you have all kinds of criticism?   

If you are going to criticize at least be more specific.  What information wasn't true?  What has been countered by research?  Show me the research.  What false items?  
You say there are better organizations out there.  Tell us some of them, I'll look them up.  

Give us something more substantial to work with here than vague claims about a presentation that you saw, that we have no access to. 

 

In the presentation they give you a firehose of information (not the video, the specific presentation we went to) and then try to get you to download their app and buy into a sister program they have for porn recovery.  Taht program at the time was stated to be free to teens and younger, but was a for profit, or at least cost money to anyone else.  In addition they sold merchandise and other items.  The presentation seemed focused on scaring parents to get their kids and themselves enrolled in these programs. 

I can't recall the exact details, but some of the stuff they presented sounded FAR too sensationalized...so I went home and did some research on the items they were stating.  What it turned up were some items written by the actual researchers who had done the research and their problems with FtND (I listed two of those researchers above).  The problems dealt with misquotes and misrepresentation of their research, as well as at times, flat out stating things that were not presently backed up by science (at least in the minds of the scientists and the ones with the actual PH.d).

The basic conclusion seemed to be that when they looked into it, this group was basically created by (four?) Mormons who were pushing the ideas they got in their religious bias into a program.  In this program they tried to correlate their views with scientific research, but because of their bias, they either got bad research or misrepresented the results. 

I personally do not have a desire to downtrod the organization, and as I stated, if it helps someone kick pornography out of their life, more power to them..  I will put out the Wikipedia article and some excerpts from the connecting articles it uses in it's support.

wikipedia - fight the new drug

Quote

Fight the New Drug (FTND) is an American anti-pornography 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization, founded in 2009. It asserts that there are effects of pornography which are destructive to individuals and to society. It seeks to raise awareness thereof, and to support individuals who desire to cease pornography use.[1] Known for billboard campaigns such as "porn kills love", Fight the New Drug supports their claims with scientific studiesThese claims are contested. The four men who founded and run it are Mormons, but they maintain that its focus is about furthering public health, not promoting a religious ideology.[2]

Quote

The series started when Salt Lake Tribune published, "Op-ed: Utah students need real sex ed, not ‘Fight the New Drug" written by four certified sex therapists; Natasha Helfer Parker, Kristin Hodson, Kristin Marie Bennion and Shannon Hickman on October 1, 2016.[15] The authors expressed concern over Fight the New Drug presenting material in public school districts in the state of Utah without soliciting approval of the school board or parents, and over the material presented claiming that it was neither comprehensive or accurate. Parker, Hodson, Bennion and Hickman wrote that their objections were due to Fight the New Drug's leaders and presenters not being mental health nor sexuality professionals, and accused Fight the New Drug of not having sufficient training in sexuality or human development to be addressing the subjects they were presenting. The authors wrote that, "Claiming that pornography affects the brain 'like a drug' and that 'cutting back can lead to withdrawal symptoms' is false." The authors argued that a "sex/porn addiction" diagnosis does not exist in the DSM-5 because such a diagnosis was specifically rejected for lack of scientific evidence. The authors also disagreed with Fight the New Drug not having been put through "a rigorous process to get approved" as sex educators and sex-ed curriculums in Utah usually are.

Fight the New Drug leaders Clay Olsen, Gary Wilson, Jill Manning, Candice Christiansen and Donald Hilton responded to these criticisms with, "Op-ed: Utah students need real sex ed and ‘Fight the New Drug" which was published in Salt Lake Tribune on October 11, 2016.[16] Fight the New Drug wrote that Parker, Hodson, Bennion and Hickman had misrepresented their work. In their rebuttal Fight the New Drug stated that they have, "...never attempted to provide, substitute or circumvent sex education curricula in schools." Fight the New Drug also stated that, "In addition to being grounded in hundreds of peer-reviewed studies, the content of various FTND school and community presentations gets regularly reviewed, updated and approved by a team of therapists and researchers to ensure it is age-appropriate for different audiences." Fight the New Drug also described several studies which they claimed "confirm the addictive potential of pornography".

Salt Lake Tribune published "Op-ed: Anti-porn school program misrepresents science" on December 12, 2016 written by; Nicole Prause, Ph.D., James Pfaus, Ph.D., Sara Blaine, Ph.D., Janniko Georgiadis, Ph.D., Paul Kieffaber, Ph.D., Erick Janssen, Ph.D., James Cantor, Ph.D., and Heather Hoffmann, Ph.D.[17] The authors stated that they were writing to express concern to, "... the supposed neuroscientific backing of a sex education program from Fight The New Drug (FTND). Based on our expertise in neuroscience and clinical psychology, we find that FTND is systematically misrepresenting science." The authors also wrote that Fight the New Drug had disregarded the scientific method, and that the studies described by Fight the New Drug were not only not rigorous, but also biased. The authors stated that, "There is extensive evidence showing that the hypothesis that pornography use is universally harmful is false."

Going to the actual op-eds which, according to this was written by actual scientists who specialize in these areas...some of them state (and this is their criticisms of the actual programs)...

From the first article First article cited on wikipedia in regards to FtND conflicts with science

Quote

Claiming that pornography affects the brain "like a drug" and that "cutting back can lead to withdrawal symptoms" is false. Drugs introduce chemicals into the brain. There is not a single study that demonstrates what neurochemicals are released in the brain when watching porn, nor that these neurochemicals are any different from those released while eating chocolate or watching football.

The largest published neuroscience study of this topic to date, as well as a series of published behavioral studies, shows that those who report problems viewing sex films do not resemble any other substance or "behavioral" addictions. According to their own website, 90 percent of FTND attendees end up agreeing that "pornography releases the same chemicals in your brain as other hard drugs" compared to 43 percent who believed this prior to their presentation. FTND is advertising their ability to successfully spread false information.

FTND claims they use "peer reviewed science and research" to back their information. A "sex/porn addiction" diagnosis does not exist in the DSM-5, which was explicitly rejected for "lack of scientific evidence."

Quote

Unapproved curriculum, offered by untrained professionals, is happening right under our noses. For many kids growing up in Utah this will be the only form of sex education they will receive. Before we educate students about the positive and negative aspects of porn, we need a positive curriculum that educates them about sexuality and human development. Utah families deserve to be informed and given the skills and resources to provide accurate, age-appropriate information around sexual health.

Natasha Helfer Parker is a licensed marriage and family therapist and certified sex therapist working in private practice in Wichita, Kan. She is the president of the Mormon Mental Health Association and runs a podcast called "Mormon Sex Info." Kristin Hodson is a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist, founder and executive director of The Healing Group in Midvale, co-author of "Real Intimacy: A Couples Guide for Genuine, Healthy Sexuality," and president-elect of the Mormon Mental Health Association. Kristin Marie Bennion is a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist, owner/therapist at Intimate Connections Counseling in Orem and Conference Committee Chair of the Mormon Mental Health Association. Shannon Hickman is a licensed clinical social worker and certified sex therapist and owner/therapist at Core Healing Counseling in Murray.

I do not find the scientists of the third article all that moral (the first article had a Mormon in charge of that one, if we are looking for Mormon criticism, these write from the prospect of the world instead...

Link to the third critical article quoted by Wikipedia Third critical article wikipedia sources

Quote

Based on our expertise in neuroscience and clinical psychology, we find that FTND is systematically misrepresenting science.

Quote

It is clear that FTND does not understand the ICD (International Classification of Diseases). ICD 10 has descriptive codes for symptoms related to medical conditions (e.g., W61.02, "struck by parrot"). "Hypersexual behaviors" is such a description, because it is a symptom in bipolar and other existing disorders. It was never accepted as a standalone diagnosis.

We agree that sex films do generate some cause for concern. For example, as an ethical matter, people should not be exposed to sex films without consent. We are actively researching methods to help distressed people manage their sexual urges.

If FTND wishes to continue to provide sex education in schools, they must:

1. Have all educational materials reviewed for accuracy by experts in neuroscience and sexual health education

2. Present a balanced view of the currently available scientific evidence, which includes the positive effects of sex films, and

3. Fall under appropriate sex education regulations.

Such education would truly serve our children.

Nicole Prause, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist and licensed psychologist at Liberos. James Pfaus, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist at Concordia University. Sara Blaine, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist at Yale University. Janniko Georgiadis, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist at University Medical Center in Groningen, The Netherlands. Paul Kieffaber, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist at College of William and Mary. Erick Janssen, Ph.D., is a psychophysiologist at University of Leuven Institute for Family and Sexuality Studies. James Cantor, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist at University of Toronto. Heather Hoffmann, Ph.D., is a neuroscientist at Knox College.

So, just some basis if one is looking at those scientists that have some critical concerns regarding the accuracy of FtND.  They probably put it more aptly than I, with my faulty memory could.

As I said, if the program helps someone kick pornography out, good for them.  I think the main thing that turned me off and got me skeptical at the presentation I attended was the huge push for their program that they had when I had gone thinking it was supposed to be educational rather than a business pushing for sales.  Hopefully their video was different than that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@LiterateParakeet

I forgot to address the second part where you asked about better programs.  At the time of the presentation to us (last year, it was offered in conjunction with one of our grandkids that was entering middle school.  They had one program for the kids, and one for the parents.  The grandkids parents (one of which is MY KID) asked us to tag along to see what we thought to the parents presentation.  We went, and probably because of how much they were trying to sell to us rather in what seemed to be sensationalizing the problem rather than purely informing...I got curious to how accurate they were and if the program was actually even effective.  In addition, I thought (and this may be because I'm an old stubborn idiot) that the material they presented was FAR too adult oriented for middle schoolers.  My suggestion was to not have the grandkid go to see the session they presented for children.

If one of my children or grandchildren had a problem, my first thought would be to send them to the LDS addiction recovery programs.  This has the support of the church, but it also is a weekly program (though I suppose this depends on your stake and how often they meet) which has a very similar concept and practice, but with the addition that you have many members to support you as well as the church itself.

Adding - if the child was younger, I would probably turn to the parents to control the children's access to this type of stuff.  There are internet programs which can restrict access, as well as parental access on tv, video, and other arenas to stop random access (or on purpose if from children) to unwanted sites on the internet or programs on tv.

If it turns out that this is not enough, I would probably suggest someone seek professional counseling help.  It would cost more money, but these are professionals trained in helping individual overcome problems in clinically tested and tried ways.

This may not always be successful...but I probably would trust the two above types of programs more than the one that FtND was trying to sell us.

 

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here's my thing...most parents suck at talking to teenagers about ANYTHING, but especially about pornography.  This is not a subject that we can ignore.  My stake has decided that it is serious enough that they want to talk about it officially three times a year.   So I shared a video to help parents have this conversation.  It's a great video.

Whether or not pornography is highly debated by scientists right now, but as I said alcohol and tobacco were once thought to be completely harmless as well.   You said no studies show that porn effect neurochemicals, I disagree.  Here are the abstracts of two articles from two different peer reviewed science journals. 
 

"Many recognize that several behaviors potentially affecting the reward circuitry in human brains lead to a loss of control and other symptoms of addiction in at least some individuals. Regarding Internet addiction, neuroscientific research supports the assumption that underlying neural processes are similar to substance addiction. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has recognized one such Internet related behavior, Internet gaming, as a potential addictive disorder warranting further study, in the 2013 revision of their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Other Internet related behaviors, e.g., Internet pornography use, were not covered. Within this review, we give a summary of the concepts proposed underlying addiction and give an overview about neuroscientific studies on Internet addiction and Internet gaming disorder. Moreover, we reviewed available neuroscientific literature on Internet pornography addiction and connect the results to the addiction model. The review leads to the conclusion that Internet pornography addiction fits into the addiction framework and shares similar basic mechanisms with substance addiction. Together with studies on Internet addiction and Internet Gaming Disorder we see strong evidence for considering addictive Internet behaviors as behavioral addiction. Future research needs to address whether or not there are specific differences between substance and behavioral addiction. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]"
 
Copyright of Behavioral Sciences (2076-328X) is the property of MDPI Publishing and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use. This abstract may be abridged. No warranty is given about the accuracy of the copy. Users should refer to the original published version of the material for the full abstract. (Copyright applies to all Abstracts.)


 
Sexual addiction has been an increasingly observed and researched phenomenon within the past 30 years. “Classic” sexual addiction emerges from a history of abuse, insecure attachment patterns, and disordered impulse control, often presenting with cross addictions and comorbid mood disorders. In contrast, a “contemporary” form of rapid-onset sexual addiction has emerged with the explosive growth of Internet technology and is distinguished by “3Cs”: chronicity, content, and culture. Of particular concern is early exposure to graphic sexual material that disrupts normal neurochemical, sexual, and social development in youth. Treatment modalities for “classic” and “contemporary” forms are overlapping yet distinct, reflecting their unique etiologies and similar presentations. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] 
 
Copyright of Sexual Addiction & Compulsivity is the property of Routledge and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use. This abstract may be abridged. No warranty is given about the accuracy of the copy. Users should refer to the original published version of the material for the full abstract. (Copyright applies to all Abstracts.)


 
Edited by LiterateParakeet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

If one of my children or grandchildren had a problem, my first thought would be to send them to the LDS addiction recovery programs.  This has the support of the church, but it also is a weekly program (though I suppose this depends on your stake and how often they meet) which has a very similar concept and practice, but with the addition that you have many members to support you as well as the church itself.

LDS Addiction Recovery is great, I'm sure.  But what I'm talking about is PREVENTION.  I'm interested in programs out there, like FtND that are working to educate people about how dangerous porn is.   Are their any other groups out there warning kids to stay away from porn?  

In the informative video that I posted above, there was no hard sell like you speak of.  It was 98% information.  At the end, he mentioned some free booklet that you could get at their booth.   

I think Fight the New Drug is doing a great job.  I really don't care what their business model is.  They go around to schools and teach kids prevention.  If they need or want to sell some books, t-shirts, apps, whatever, I don't care as long as the information they provide is good, and I believe it is. 

Edited by LiterateParakeet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

Here's my thing...most parents suck at talking to teenagers about ANYTHING, but especially about pornography.  This is not a subject that we can ignore.  My stake has decided that it is serious enough that they want to talk about it officially three times a year.   So I shared a video to help parents have this conversation.  It's a great video.

Whether or not pornography is highly debated by scientists right now, but as I said alcohol and tobacco were once thought to be completely harmless as well.   You said no studies show that porn effect neurochemicals, I disagree.  
 

"Many recognize that several behaviors potentially affecting the reward circuitry in human brains lead to a loss of control and other symptoms of addiction in at least some individuals. Regarding Internet addiction, neuroscientific research supports the assumption that underlying neural processes are similar to substance addiction. The American Psychiatric Association (APA) has recognized one such Internet related behavior, Internet gaming, as a potential addictive disorder warranting further study, in the 2013 revision of their Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. Other Internet related behaviors, e.g., Internet pornography use, were not covered. Within this review, we give a summary of the concepts proposed underlying addiction and give an overview about neuroscientific studies on Internet addiction and Internet gaming disorder. Moreover, we reviewed available neuroscientific literature on Internet pornography addiction and connect the results to the addiction model. The review leads to the conclusion that Internet pornography addiction fits into the addiction framework and shares similar basic mechanisms with substance addiction. Together with studies on Internet addiction and Internet Gaming Disorder we see strong evidence for considering addictive Internet behaviors as behavioral addiction. Future research needs to address whether or not there are specific differences between substance and behavioral addiction. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]"
 
Copyright of Behavioral Sciences (2076-328X) is the property of MDPI Publishing and its content may not be copied or emailed to multiple sites or posted to a listserv without the copyright holder's express written permission. However, users may print, download, or email articles for individual use. This abstract may be abridged. No warranty is given about the accuracy of the copy. Users should refer to the original published version of the material for the full abstract. (Copyright applies to all Abstracts.)


 

You didn't post a link...but did you actually just post an MDPI article of all things???

Back on topic...

I'm not against getting people off and out of pornography at all.  In fact, I support the idea.

The problem was that FtND is a non-profit business stating that they are there for educational purposes, when in truth, from the presentation we got, it seemed more that they were into scare tactics to get people to buy into their programs.  In addition, their presentations were a LITTLE to adult for the age groups that they want to talk to.  You should understand me and my wife are pretty sensitive in some areas and what we consider too adult may seem a bit old fashioned to many these days.

There is plenty of stuff in the LDS church that talks to us to avoid pornography.  There are other groups that also have been into the business side of this (such as another group that FtND seems to be emulating...but who got into a LOT of trouble recently due to making it a business rather than truly being in it to help others...I believe her name was Shelley Lubben, she was VERY big in the business in CA for a while.  Due to this her program closed in late 2016 and FtND has seemed to assimilated what she used to utilize and present).

Personally,  I think that if parents watch and talk to their children in accordance with the LDS teachings, that is probably MORE prevention than such a program as FtND will do.  Parents have the ability to control the internet and the TV programs.

Even in our house, we have the computers placed in the family room facing towards the center where anyone can see what someone is doing.  (and at times can annoy you, one of my favorite grand daughters also loves to come and read anything I'm reading over my shoulder when I'm on the internet).  Our TV's also face where everyone can see them in each of the rooms they are in (though that's more because it really helps if everyone can watch the TV if a movie is on it or TV show if they so desire to watch it).  Accountability with family members and having the love and support of family members if one has difficulties in these arenas I think are going to be far more helpful than giving away personal information (and that is one of the requirements of the program, you give them personal information, which is a practice I also question in regards to minors with private ID information) and accountability with some computer planner rather than your own family.

What it probably boils down to is I trust the church.  I might trust a counselor, but FtND didn't instill my trust in them.  HOWEVER, as I have said, if it helps someone kick pornography out of their life, then more power to them. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

You didn't post a link...but did you actually just post an MDPI article of all things???

You post info from wikipedia and give me a hard time about MDPI?  What is your beef with MDPI?   I found the article on EBSCO when I searched "peer reviewed articles" in academic journals.  

This article is from the Behavioral Sciences journal.
http://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/5/3/388/htm

And here's a link for the other article I added above:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10720162.2013.843067

 

Quote

Personally,  I think that if parents watch and talk to their children in accordance with the LDS teachings, that is probably MORE prevention than such a program as FtND will do.  Parents have the ability to control the internet and the TV programs.

And what about the kids outside of the church?   What about kids who don't go to church at all?   Don't they matter?  

Honestly, my main frustration with our conversation is that your critiques have nothing to do with the video I posted, which is great information for parents about talking to their teens about pornography.  As I said, I didn't feel like they were trying to sale me anything.  

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

LDS Addiction Recovery is great, I'm sure.  But what I'm talking about is PREVENTION.  I'm interested in programs out there, like FtND that are working to educate people about how dangerous porn is.   Are their any other groups out there warning kids to stay away from porn?  

In the informative video that I posted above, there was no hard sell like you speak of.  It was 98% information.  At the end, he mentioned some free booklet that you could get at their booth.   

I think Fight the New Drug is doing a great job.  I really don't care what their business model is.  They go around to schools and teach kids prevention.  If they need or want to sell some books, t-shirts, apps, whatever, I don't care as long as the information they provide is good, and I believe it is. 

And that's okay.  As long as those programs are done AFTER school and are OPTIONAL, I'm perfectly fine with it.

I was okay going to their presentation...I'm an adult as were my kids.  However, I DO have a problem if their presentation was to children under the age of 18, at least for the one who is my grandkid.  They do not have the filters adults should have, and at times will be far more gullible.  If this company says to buy into their program, and that the kid should give away their personally identifiable information for the company to have for all time as it is signed off on (and the fact that they want this information and say the kids can have their program for free) sounds more like someone preying on children than someone out there to actually help out of the goodness of their hearts.  Every parent should be alert for people who would prey on their children, and when this program was presented to us and I actually understood what they were asking our children to do (it costs adults money to participate in the program), it set alarm bells going off all over my head. 

To me, it sounded like something seriously wrong might be going on with the company.

However, as long as it is optional for people to go to, and they are made fully aware of it in the case of their children and have the option for their children to attend or not attend and it is NOT done during school hours...I'm perfectly fine with it.  From what I found out, unfortunately, this is NOT always how the company has been conducted.  The way it has been done in some areas...has not made me a fan of the company.

I know they state that children may be exposed as young as 8, but some of the stuff they present in what they show to the kids, if presented to one of my grandkids under the age of 14 or 15, I'd probably consider abuse.  It would be even MORE so if they presented it to someone under the age of 10.  HOWEVER...as I said, I am probably an old fashioned type that is more easily offended in this type of show.

For prevention though...the LDS church is doing far more I think in this arena than FtND.  FtND will probably show at most once or twice a year at a school, but parents and the church talk about it far more often than that, and parents should always be cautious and protective of their children.  I don't think FtND is going to do much about prevention, and it would surprise me with some of what they talk about if they actually have CAUSED a problem at times.  If a kid is innocent, bringing some of the stuff up that they do is going to trigger the child's curiosity MORE than if they had simply not brought some of those items up in the first place.  FtND seems to work more on scare tactics at times in it's presentations rather than what is an actually worthwhile information.

that said...

If your summary of what they said in the video is correct, it sounds like the video had some decent advice.  I question their age ranges of where children are exposed.  Perhaps it is accurate for non-LDS homes and non-Christian homes, but my thoughts would be that this is more a scare tactic than complete honesty.  However, being aware and talking to your children is ALWAYS a good practice.  This is something the LDS church already promotes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

You post info from wikipedia and give me a hard time about MDPI?  What is your beef with MDPI?   I found the article on EBSCO when I searched "peer reviewed articles" in academic journals.  

This article is from the Behavioral Sciences journal.
http://www.mdpi.com/2076-328X/5/3/388/htm

And here's a link for the other article I added above:
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10720162.2013.843067

 

And what about the kids outside of the church?   What about kids who don't go to church at all?   Don't they matter?  

Honestly, my main frustration with our conversation is that your critiques have nothing to do with the video I posted, which is great information for parents about talking to their teens about pornography.  As I said, I didn't feel like they were trying to sale me anything.  

 

 

It's a controversial journal.  For many Wikipedia is actually considered far more trustworthy...others seem to like it.

I'm not here to slander them though, just surprised anyone would use them as a source.

I was greatly turned off by FtND (if you couldn't tell).  I think I've hinted that some of their practices seem like they could actually be predatory on children...and their presentations are not children appropriate from what I've seen.  Those are both reasons for concern.  

In addition of course, I was turned off by their sales pitch (and that was basically what we were given, as sales pitched hidden as a supposed educational program).

I admit the video may be good (as I've admitted and you pointed out, I have not watched it, though I have skipped through it at this point), but the organization in the past has given me some very bad impressions about it.

It may be that they've changed and turned a corner in the past few months.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I know they state that children may be exposed as young as 8, but some of the stuff they present in what they show to the kids, if presented to one of my grandkids under the age of 14 or 15, I'd probably consider abuse.  It would be even MORE so if they presented it to someone under the age of 10.  

These presentations are done in public schools, correct?  So I find it hard to believe that they would have done more than one presentation if your assessment were correct.
 

Quote

 For prevention though...the LDS church is doing far more I think in this arena than FtND.  FtND will probably show at most once or twice a year at a school, but parents and the church talk about it far more often than that, and parents should always be cautious and protective of their children.  I don't think FtND is going to do much about prevention, and it would surprise me with some of what they talk about if they actually have CAUSED a problem at times.  If a kid is innocent, bringing some of the stuff up that they do is going to trigger the child's curiosity MORE than if they had simply not brought some of those items up in the first place.  FtND seems to work more on scare tactics at times in it's presentations rather than what is an actually worthwhile information.


Again....there are people in the world who are not LDS . . . we don't all live in Utah, and even in Utah not everyone is LDS.  

And again....they are giving these presentations in public schools....if they were inappropriate in any way, they wouldn't still be invited.  
 

Quote

If your summary of what they said in the video is correct, it sounds like the video had some decent advice.  I question their age ranges of where children are exposed.  Perhaps it is accurate for non-LDS homes and non-Christian homes, but my thoughts would be that this is more a scare tactic than complete honesty.  However, being aware and talking to your children is ALWAYS a good practice.  This is something the LDS church already promotes.

You talk as if you think I'm trying to put up FtND to replace the church.  I'm not.  That would be silly.  I'm actually following the example of my stake leaders in trying to learn more about this topic and education others both within and outside of the church.  I'm grateful for the help of FtND and any other proactive anti-porn groups I can find. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

It's a controversial journal.  For many Wikipedia is actually considered far more trustworthy...others seem to like it.

The article I posted is from a peer reviewed science journal, called Behavioral Sciences.  I originally found it on EBSCO.  If you really feel that Wikipedia is more trustworthy than a peer reviewed science journal, then we don't have anything else to talk about. 

 

Edited by LiterateParakeet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

These presentations are done in public schools, correct?  So I find it hard to believe that they would have done more than one presentation if your assessment were correct.
 


Again....there are people in the world who are not LDS . . . we don't all live in Utah, and even in Utah not everyone is LDS.  

And again....they are giving these presentations in public schools....if they were inappropriate in any way, they wouldn't still be invited.  
 

You talk as if you think I'm trying to put up FtND to replace the church.  I'm not.  That would be silly.  I'm actually following the example of my stake leaders in trying to learn more about this topic and education others both within and outside of the church.  I'm grateful for the help of FtND and any other proactive anti-porn groups I can find. 

For those who are not LDS...

What I've found is that at first FtND was supported heavily in the Christian community...until for some...they found out it was created by Mormons...and then it was rejected by those who found out about this in many areas.  Those who are unaware of this do seem to promote it from a Evangelical Christian viewpoint.

Those who are NON-Mormon and not far right Christians seem to reject FtND for various reasons.  Much of it has to do with what was posted in the areas critical to FtND...as they find it non-scientific and non-factual.  They simply just don't invite FtND at all.

FtND seems to be more favorably held by those in LDS areas and by LDS individuals.  They are using the Mormon connection to spread their message.  Those in the world who are NOT LDS...in many cases are not listening in the first place.  They don't invite this group to their schools.  The do have DARE at some of them though.

PS: It is admirable to try to learn more about the topic and educate those both within and outside the church.  Using sources whether from FtND or others to be proactive in fighting the plague of pornography that abounds in our society today can be helpful to many who probably suffer from these ailments of the spirit.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

The article I posted is from a peer reviewed science journal, called Behavioral Sciences.  I originally found it on EBSCO.  If you really feel that Wikipedia is more trustworthy than a peer reviewed science journal, then we don't have anything else to talk about. 

 

Your link was to MDPI.com which appears to be behavorial sciences under MDPI.  EBSCO lists it, but it's not sponsored by them as far as I know.  It's just one of the many that they link to.   (MDPI has somewhat raised it's standards in the past few years in some areas...it's more peer reviewed OA than others...not considered top profile still from what little I know though).

I was just surprised that you used it to back something up.

I'm not trying to prove or disprove FtND's information, I'm not a psychologist or expert in that field.  I posted the items from Wikipedia as a general item, and then posted links to the actual sources Wikipedia used in their controversial facts section so that people can read and verify the items themselves and that they are by those who are Mormon's in the field, as well as Non-Mormons in the field both having a problem with FtND's program and the way it presents "facts".

You asked a question which I, personally, couldn't answer as my memory wasn't good enough to remember the specific areas where I found difficulties.  Thus, to answer your question on areas where there were problems with their presentations, I let others who probably are far more qualified (Mormons who are directly in the field and do research and Non-Mormons in the actual field who study and do research) talk about the problems with FtND's "facts".

I wasn't going for a scholarly debate, just trying to answer your question the best I could.  I remember having some distinct difficulties and problems with the presentation they gave, but the specifics you requested were a bit foggy.  It was several months ago and I didn't make a checklist of them.  Some of it's coming back as we've discussed them, but when first answering, I remember they had some facts that seemed very wrong and sensationalized quite a bit, but I couldn't recall exactly what they were today.

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

I wasn't going for a scholarly debate,

I wasn't looking for a debate at all.  I just shared a video that has great information for parents.  But when you questioned the scientific validity of the video (that you didn't watch) then I went to EBSCO, which is a respected source, to back up my information.     

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I wasn't looking for a debate at all.  I just shared a video that has great information for parents.  But when you questioned the scientific validity of the video (that you didn't watch) then I went to EBSCO, which is a respected source, to back up my information.     

Oh, I wasn't questioning the video itself.  I was just relating my experience I had with FtND.  I had thought I made it clear I had not watched the video itself and was commenting on the presentation that FtND had given in our local area recently. 

You asked me to list the criticisms I had about the presentation more specifically so I was trying to acquiesce. 

I had remembered (and as we've continued the discussion remembered more as we've gone along, like the feeling that they were preying on children and children's identifiable information...for example) that I had problems but I didn't recall the exact items, so I tried to reconstruct some of what I had found in the past.

I didn't intend to discourage your or your excitement.  I DID have a problem with FtND though. 

I suppose the best way to put it is...if someone came blind up to you and said they were going to inform you of some good information. 

You go and instead they ask for your children's personally identifiable information and ask that you tell them to sign a contract giving those people the right to own that information and use it however they want without telling you fully what it is they are going to do with it, and in return say they will give your child a free app that normally costs adults money...would you simply give them your child's information? 

Would you have alarm bells going off saying...why do these people want this personal information from my child...and why do they want the child to give it to them for free or at such a low cost to them?  Why is this presentation trying to point out that I NEED to give them my child's information because I NEED this app and program from them?  What is it that they are really after....helping me and my children...or trying to scare me into giving away my and my children's personal information for free?

Is this information they are trying to scare me with even valid?

What would you say in regards to that organization after that?

It wasn't about your video, I was relaying my experience with FtND in their presentations.  It was off topic of the video, on topic in regards to FtND.  I did not mean to derail your topic, just thought I'd make a post on the presentation we got from FtND. 

In regards to EBSCO.

EBSCO is a respected source to find links to journals.  Never had a problem with them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, JohnsonJones said:

You go and instead they ask for your children's personally identifiable information and ask that you tell them to sign a contract giving those people the right to own that information and use it however they want without telling you fully what it is they are going to do with it, and in return say they will give your child a free app that normally costs adults money...would you simply give them your child's information? 

I would have a problem with that too.  But as I said, I didn't see any of that in the video that I posted.  Or on their website.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, LiterateParakeet said:

I would have a problem with that too.  But as I said, I didn't see any of that in the video that I posted.  Or on their website.  

I don't know if it is with their Fortify 2, but they did have this with their original program that they tried to sell to us.  It's ironic that on their youtube channel they have very little of this, but in the presentation there was a TON of it being pushed on us.  The presentation was longer than the video though.  I think it started around 7 at night and we didn't get out till somewhere between 8:30 and 9PM or something like that. 

I wasn't meaning to derail your discussion of the video.  I was giving my experience with the organization behind it though from one of their presentations.  Originally I thought it would be a one off post rather than what has developed in this thread.

They seem very similar to Shelley Lubben's Pink Cross organization (went out of business in 2016), just not as public or popular, not as recognized by the media or involved in the judicial arenas against pornography, and not as proactive...but similar design and focus.  The methods they present are very similar though, and the way they go about it is similar.

PS: Just as something didn't feel right to me with the FtND presentations, there were some of the media presentations that Lubben did that also didn't feel quite right to me either (she was a tad bigger in the media's eye and did some news interviews).  FtND have started following suite with her though in showing those who used to be in the downfallen industries of porn and their now stories against it.  However, just like with the Pink Cross, if they have helped someone overcome this tribulation...good for them.  I cannot say something evil on that.

Something just felt off with what they were asking for in their presentation and thus I am not all excited about FtND and their way of doing things..

Edited by JohnsonJones

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this