True Or Not True...

[serapha]

I heard today on a radio broadcast that the Jews were taking the CoJCoLDS's back to court for baptizing the holocaust victims in a baptism of the dead....

that the CoJCoLDS's had been baptizing the Jews who died in the holocaust to give them a chance at salvation...

but that the practice was outlawed by the courts in 1995...

But now, it is brougth to light that the CoJCoLDS's has continued to baptize the dead Jews against court order.

True or Not True?

~serapha~

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/arch...4/11/2003136234

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 12 2004, 11:05 PM

but that the practice was outlawed by the courts in 1995...

...and pray tell, what court was that? And, if it is outlawed, what kind of crime is it?

[Guest Starsky]

LOL....if there is no physical baptism against any living persons will, I can't see how there could be a law.

Performing ordinances for the dead, if they don't believe in it, is nothing to them...

It should be noted that by their very objection (if there were any) they are admitting there is 'validity' to the power and authority acknowledge by God....of the LDS priesthood

COOL...

[Spencer]

its not like theyre forcing them to accept it, they have that choice. And i think that is the right of the family members to do so if they choose.

Spencer

[AFDaw]

That article doesn't say a court ordered them not to. (unless I missed it, I heavily skimmed it instead of read every word)

But that's ridiculous. That's like me getting upset at someone for praying for me.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

"It's ridiculous for people to pretend they have the key to heaven," said Rabbi Marvin Hier, dean and founder of the Simon Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles.

I've always thought it was a shining example of religious tolerance to characterize some of the essential teachings of other religions as "ridiculous."

So the Catholics (who believe Peter, as first "pope" was given the "keys of the kingdom of heaven") and the Latter-day Saints (who believe those keys were restored to Joseph Smith) believe something ridiculous.

[Guest lt]

actually the only individuals that are baptized are ones who have had relitives enter there names for work to be preformed on, or have been asked.......It always tickles me how the light of things always gets changed

[Outshined]

Actually, it isn't "the Jews" trying to sue, but a single woman in the story I read.

Another group says it is "considering action", but not so far.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Starsky@Apr 13 2004, 08:51 AM

LOL....if there is no physical baptism against any living persons will, I can't see how there could be a law.

There is no law against it, and there was no court Serapha just fabricated that.

There was a kind of ruckus from the Jewish quarter and the Church agreed to curtail its activities. The concern is that the baptisms persist and in response the Church says that it can't promise/ensure that no Jewish names with not slip through.

Unless the Jews really believe that there is something to temple work, I think they're nuts, especially considering who invented baptisms of the dead.

[serapha]

The point I am trying to make is this...

If the CoJCoLDS's gave their word that they would cease the practice of baptizing the dead for the Jewish holocaust victims ... why isn't their "word" any good? THAT's the fabrication. That a church would say one thing and then do another.

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 13 2004, 06:24 PM

The point I am trying to make is this...

If the CoJCoLDS's gave their word that they would cease the practice of baptizing the dead for the Jewish holocaust victims ... why isn't their "word" any good? THAT's the fabrication. That a church would say one thing and then do another.

~serapha~

Your point is that the LDS Church promised something that it could deliver and then deliberately (and illegally according to you) renegged on it.

Right.

A little evidence or is backing up your accusations to much to ask.

[AFDaw]

How do most names get in the system? The only names we've ever actively put in have been ancestors we found in doing geneology. If the family of a deceased Jewish Holocaust victim wants to have the work done for their ancestors, then why can't they? Because someone that isn't related to that person says it's not right? Who are they to say it shouldn't be done?

I don't understand how this isn't seen as being completely silly. We don't believe that it automatically makes someone Mormon, we believe that person has the CHOICE to accept the baptism or reject it. Why would anyone be worried about it?

I just don't get it.

[AFDaw]

I found this from an article online.

SALT LAKE CITY - Researchers say Mormons have continued to posthumously baptize Jewish Holocaust victims into their faith despite a promise to discontinue the practice.

That statement is misleading. No wonder people think we should stop, they don't understand the process.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Seraph:

If the CoJCoLDS's gave their word that they would cease the practice of baptizing the dead for the Jewish holocaust victims ... why isn't their "word" any good? THAT's the fabrication. That a church would say one thing and then do another.

I second Snow's point, and add this question: What would you like the Church to do -- hire a full-time staff of genealogical researchers to vet the names submitted to the Church to make sure none of them are Jewish?

I can see the scene in the Church Office Building now: The committee is sitting in a circle, looking at names -- "Does Liebeskind sound Jewish to you? Or is it just regular German?"

"Better safe than sorry, Brother Christensenjenseneccles. Toss it."

(crumple, crumple)

Names submitted for proxy work are submitted by individuals, many of whom don't (shall we say) have the best training in genealogical research.

For example, one of my ancestors is listed on the Family Search website as "Odin, Residence, Asgard, Central Asia, Wife, Mrs. Odin."

They can't tell mythical figures from real people, and you expect them to know the religious difference between a Rosentreter and a Rosenbaum?

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 13 2004, 08:23 PM

I second Snow's point, and add this question: What would you like the Church to do -- hire a full-time staff of genealogical researchers to vet the names submitted to the Church to make sure none of them are Jewish?

Well that's kind of what we agreed to do:

-Remove from the next issue of the International Genealogical Index the names of all known posthumous baptized Jewish Holocaust victims who are not direct ancestors of living members of the Church.

-Provide a list of all Jewish Holocaust victims whose names are to be removed from the International Genealogical Index to the American Gathering of Jewish Holocaust Survivors, the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Commission, the N.Y. Holocaust Memorial Commission, the Wiesenthal Center in Los Angeles and Yad Vashem Holocaust Memorial in Jerusalem, Israel, and confirm in writing when removal of such names has been completed.

-Reaffirm the policy and issue a directive to all officials and members of the Church to discontinue any future baptisms of deceased Jews, including all lists of Jewish Holocaust victims who are known Jews, except if they were direct ancestors of living members of the Church or the Church had the written approval of all living members of the deceased's immediate family.

-Confirm this policy in all relevant literature produced by the Church.

-Remove from the International Genealogical Index in the future the names of all deceased Jews who are so identified if they are known to be improperly included counter to Church policy.

-Release to the American Gathering The First Presidency's 1995 directive.

Now Serapha, wants us to believe that not only have we failed to do that, but that we have broken the law in doing so and that some court has jurisdiction over the issue.

I personally am not aware that we have or haven't complied with all the terms of our agreement in good faith, but I am quite sure that when she made her fallacious accusations, Serapha had even less idea than I had.

Note that nowhere did the Church agree to stop doing proxy baptisms for dead Jews.

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 13 2004, 08:23 PM

I second Snow's point, and add this question: What would you like the Church to do -- hire a full-time staff of genealogical researchers to vet the names submitted to the Church to make sure none of them are Jewish?

Oh, and it is with a sense of regret and embarrassment that I note that I have never used the word "vet" in that sense in a sentence before (though I have intended to).

On a bright note I did use the word "parse" just last week.

[serapha]

They can't tell mythical figures from real people, and you expect them to know the religious difference between a Rosentreter and a Rosenbaum?

You baptize mythological figures?

Why? Just in case they aren't mythological?

Has satan been baptized in the CoJCoLDS's?

~serapha~

[AFDaw]

I think you completely read that wrong Serapha.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 13 2004, 10:38 PM

They can't tell mythical figures from real people, and you expect them to know the religious difference between a Rosentreter and a Rosenbaum?

You baptize mythological figures?

Why? Just in case they aren't mythological?

Has satan been baptized in the CoJCoLDS's?

~serapha~

[Snow]

Originally posted by AFDaw@Apr 13 2004, 09:48 PM

I think you completely read that wrong Serapha.

Perhaps she is thinking of the mythological god Rosembaum, the cow created in the hoar-frost of Ginnungagap. When Rosenbaum became hungry, she began licking the salt from the sheets of ice. After continuous licking, the cow uncovered from the ice the body of Rosentreter, whose grandsons are the gods Herzog, Weisman, and Katz.

[Snow]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 13 2004, 09:38 PM

Has satan been baptized in the CoJCoLDS's?

~serapha~

I dunno, have you stopped paying homage to The Prince of Darkness, and his cousin The Prince of Pandemonium?

[Outshined]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 13 2004, 10:38 PM

Has satan been baptized in the CoJCoLDS's?

Of course not; he's still very much alive. One only has to look at the protestors outside at General Conference or any Temple dedication to that he is still busy.........

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Originally posted by serapha@Apr 13 2004, 09:38 PM

They can't tell mythical figures from real people, and you expect them to know the religious difference between a Rosentreter and a Rosenbaum?

You baptize mythological figures?

Why? Just in case they aren't mythological?

Has satan been baptized in the CoJCoLDS's?

~serapha~

As far as I know, the Church doesn't knowingly baptize mythological figures. But proxy work for the dead depends on the members' genealogical research. And once you get past the Carolingian period, the genealogies get really fuzzy between real and legendary ancestors, especially in Scandinavian and Germanic noble genealogies. My family tree includes Siegfried (yes, the guy from the Wagner opera) who may or may not have been real, just like my supposed Scandinavian ancestors Jokull ("glacier"), Frosti ("frost") and Odin.

(Also in my list is Rodrigo de Bivar, who Charlton Heston played in "El Cid." Ironically, that's technically enough to have qualified me as "Hispanic" for purposes of affirmative action. Wish I'd known that when I applied to Harvard.)

The Church does seem to have some limits in place as to what gets accepted into its records. There's a tradition that the Scottish kings could trace their ancestry back to Adam. (Basically, what they did was invent a bunch of Celtic names for mythical kings, one of whom just happened to be a descendant of a biblical figure.) That genealogy doesn't appear in the Church records, probably because it doesn't pass the laugh test. I suspect the "Odin" reference slipped through because whoever was in charge of approving the record entry wasn't as up on Nordic mythology as Snow is.

I still think it would have been cool to have been baptized for Odin. All I ever got were guys from 17th-century Germany with ridiculously long names that the gentle old temple workers absolutely butchered.

[Guest Starsky]

Well also...if Serapha doesn't believe in the power or ordinance to baptise for the dead...then it really is a moot point isn't it?

And I would like to add, that if Satan did have an ordinance done for him, it wouldn't make any difference anyway...cause he isn't in spirit prison waiting to accept it....

He is in the earth....

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Apr 14 2004, 12:03 PM

All I ever got were guys from 17th-century Germany with ridiculously long names that the gentle old temple workers absolutely butchered.

My sister once got baptized for a person she said was named:

Kwizmee Quigley