Worship

[CommanderSouth]

As of late I have been mulling over the idea of how we worship God.

Having been brought up Pentecostal it was all very much hands in the air, repetitive prayer, phrases, and the like.  Not at all meant to be mundane or over the top, but it always struck me as "angels with harps" so to speak.

I have been thinking about our relationship to God, as we understand it.  And it makes me think is that truly necessary or even what the Lord wants?  Would you really sit and just fawn over your earthly father all day, no matter how good they were?  I am not sure I am looking at it through the right lens, but it seems to me the honor we should be giving is the gratitude and capitalization on what he has given us, and not just the endless adoration.

Sometimes I worry the way I look at our relationship with God could demean the worship I give to him as I think of him as less a magical creator I need to be falling down in front of all the time, and the perfection I need to strive to be, though ever grateful for the love he has and possibilities he has given us.

What do you guys think?  Am I waaaay off base here?

[Guest]

39 minutes ago, CommanderSouth said:

As of late I have been mulling over the idea of how we worship God.

Having been brought up Pentecostal it was all very much hands in the air, repetitive prayer, phrases, and the like.  Not at all meant to be mundane or over the top, but it always struck me as "angels with harps" so to speak.

I have been thinking about our relationship to God, as we understand it.  And it makes me think is that truly necessary or even what the Lord wants?  Would you really sit and just fawn over your earthly father all day, no matter how good they were?  I am not sure I am looking at it through the right lens, but it seems to me the honor we should be giving is the gratitude and capitalization on what he has given us, and not just the endless adoration.

Sometimes I worry the way I look at our relationship with God could demean the worship I give to him as I think of him as less a magical creator I need to be falling down in front of all the time, and the perfection I need to strive to be, though ever grateful for the love he has and possibilities he has given us.

What do you guys think?  Am I waaaay off base here?

While I don't 100% agree, I don't think you're too far off from what I think.

To me the idea of "worship" can mean many things.  You mentioned this idea of "endless adoration" which could mean a few different things.  I think of my children who all treat me differently and think of me differently.  But there are many parallels to our relationship to our Heavenly Father.  So, here are some topics to ponder.

OBEDIENCE:  Through the relationship we have cultivated, they are all obedient to me... at differing levels.  They'll disagree with me.  They may even get mad at me.  They will tease me to no end.  And they may be defiant at times.  But in the end, they will eventually accept my authority in my home and do what I say. This isn't simply because I threaten to punish them.  I usually don't even have to send them to their rooms.  Their obedience is based on our relationship and their understanding of the family structure and so forth.  And, if I can be a bit self-congratulatory, I'd say the obedience is also due to a certain level of respect they have for me.  Which brings me to the next topic.

RESPECT: We often speak of "reverence" or "awe" or even "fear" when we speak of our feelings for the Lord.  But that would obviously be inappropriate for an earthly family relationship.  But I would say that my children do have a level of respect that is healthy for a functional family.  We revere the Lord.  We fear him.  And when we really consider his creations, our blessings, his guidance throughout our lives, and so many things that would take too long to list here, a respectful child of God must feel a level of awe for all he has done.  For me it isn't constant.  But when I have my quiet moments, I'm able to "consider all the worlds (his) hands have made."  When I have those poignant moments, I truly am in awe of what he's done for his children, and for me specifically.

LOVE: My children and I have a relationship based on love as well as respect.  If they truly know that I just want what is best for them, they are more willing to do what I say.  Not only that, but the times we share in fun, learning, excitement, sorrow, anger, frustration, joy... all are shared through the lens of the love in our relationship.  They know I work really hard to provide them things.  They know I am there to help them with difficulties in their lives.  And they come to me for that aid I offer.  Which brings me to the next topic.

POWER: My children come to me because I have knowledge and ability to do things that they cannot.  So, when they can't get something done, they ask me for help. Sometimes that means a priesthood blessing.  My children ask for blessings during many occasions in their lives.  They know the power of the priesthood.  They've witnessed it, and continue to do so.  How useless would it be to have a God with no power?  We go to God in prayer to ask him for help. That's why we ask for things in prayer.  While my children don't feel awe at my power (because it isn't me, but the Lord) I believe we ought to truly ponder the fact that He really is All-Powerful.  If we were to recognize that power more often, then maybe we would want to have an attitude of endless adoration.

EMULATION:  Several of my children have made it known to me that they want to go into the family business.  They want to do the things I do.  For many, it is convenient that they have a built-in mentor.  But one of my children has always had a special place in my heart.  He has a special place in his heart for me.  He doesn't follow me because it is more convenient.  He wants to follow in my footsteps because he wants to be just like me.  He wants to do what I do.  He wants to BE like me.  If we are truly awed by the Lord for his works, his power, his love, etc., wouldn't we want to do everything he does and be everything that he is?  The desire for emulation also speaks to our attitude of obedience.  My one son isn't any more excited about doing chores as any other child.  But when I'm doing something (like building something in the garage or doing yard work) he wants to do it with me because he wants to be like Dad.  This does actually feel like endless adoration.  And, you know what?  It feels great.  I truly feel loved when I think my son wants to follow in my footsteps.  And I do want to give him every opportunity to do so.

We should also want to be like Dad.

GRATITUDE: While all the above feel great, I have to say that when my children give a sincere "thank you" for things I do for them, it really feels good.  Sometimes it is just the typical polite thank you that they've been taught to give  because it is good manners.  But every once in a while, there is some real feeling behind it.  And I can tell.  I really do appreciate those.

Now, our Heavenly Father doesn't have an "ego" to bruise like mortal men.  But I think our Heavenly Father is happy with the polite thank yous.  And I'd bet he really appreciates our sincere, truly excited, thank yous for the out of the ordinary thing -- or even the ordinary thing.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Guest

[Guest]

 

[zil]

I think your answer is perfect, @Carborendum!

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

And, if I can be a bit self-congratulatory, I'd say the obedience is also due to a certain level of respect they have for me.

Yes, even if they're not conscious of it yet, this is it--they do as you say because they trust (sometimes begrudgingly) that you know what's best.  (That trust has the power to make or break a child's life.)

6 hours ago, Carborendum said:

...recognize that power... GRATITUDE ...

The dictionary definition of worship points us to this as the origin of the word (emphasis mine): "Old English weorthscipe ‘worthiness, acknowledgment of worth’".  Which brings me to the following scriptures (and those like it):

The scriptures are full of acknowledgement of God's worth.  I won't cite them all but, "Holy One of Israel", "Almighty", "mighty to save", numerous instances of "the Glory of God", etc.  This seems like of good example of how scripture both acknowledges the worth of God, and demonstrates one way for us to do the same:

Quote

Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

And then this:

Quote

D&C 59:21 And in nothing doth man offend God, or against none is his wrath kindled, save those who confess not his hand in all things, and obey not his commandments.

...which explains one of our duties to God - specifically the "confess his hand in all things" - that seems like both gratitude and acknowledging God's worth.

Edited October 21, 2018 by zil

[Jersey Boy]

9 hours ago, CommanderSouth said:

As of late I have been mulling over the idea of how we worship God.

Having been brought up Pentecostal it was all very much hands in the air, repetitive prayer, phrases, and the like.  Not at all meant to be mundane or over the top, but it always struck me as "angels with harps" so to speak.

I have been thinking about our relationship to God, as we understand it.  And it makes me think is that truly necessary or even what the Lord wants?  Would you really sit and just fawn over your earthly father all day, no matter how good they were?  I am not sure I am looking at it through the right lens, but it seems to me the honor we should be giving is the gratitude and capitalization on what he has given us, and not just the endless adoration.

Sometimes I worry the way I look at our relationship with God could demean the worship I give to him as I think of him as less a magical creator I need to be falling down in front of all the time, and the perfection I need to strive to be, though ever grateful for the love he has and possibilities he has given us.

What do you guys think?  Am I waaaay off base here?

In Doctrine and Covenants 93 , the Lord testifies the ultimate expression of the worship of God is for each of His sons and daughters to genuinely love, honor and admire Him so much that their utmost desire and motivation is to want to be like Him, and then expend sufficient faith and effort in order to actually make it happen. This means that unless our worship of God is combined with earnest effort to become like Him our worship is in vain and, in fact, is not worship at all.

Edited October 21, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[Traveler]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:17 AM, Jersey Boy said:

In Doctrine and Covenants 93 , the Lord testifies the ultimate expression of the worship of God is for each of His sons and daughters to genuinely love, honor and admire Him so much that their utmost desire and motivation is to want to be like Him, and then expend sufficient faith and effort in order to actually make it happen. This means that unless our worship of God is combined with earnest effort to become like Him our worship is in vain and, in fact, is not worship at all.

As an engineer I work with industrial artificial intelligence.   There are two thoughts - one, I will call the super intelligence that oversees the big picture and communicates to a complex system what each process should or ought to be doing.  Most systems operate from this notion.  The second is a distributed intelligence system - the latest buzz word is "The Hive Intelligence".    Because of similarities with a Bee Hive - thus the buzz word.  But the bee hive is dominated by the superior Queen Bee.   Over the years I have become a proponent of the distributed system because it is much more effective and efficient.

Without going into all the detail the method of a true Hive Intelligence is many independent processes making decisions at the level where the information resides or work to be done.  Any discovered information is then passed into the hive collective that distributes this information to all processes that can use it.  In essence communication - data, information and commands become bidirectional.  I can give some rather simple examples if any one is actually interested.  But the point I want to make is that I believe that G-d operates by distributed intelligence.  G-d expects his human creations to make decisions as much as possible at their point of operations and to see understanding from counsels.  Even the station of G-d is a counsel we call the G-d Head comprised of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.  Thus we worship not just as individuals but also from the counsels in which we participate.  Like in marriage - we are never a single entity but a counsel - making our family also a means of worship. 

I bring this up because I think we are somewhat programmed to worship as an individual rather than a family or community.  I believe this worship by counsel to be part of the restored truth of the gospel and unique to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

The Traveler

[Jersey Boy]

11 hours ago, Traveler said:

As an engineer I work with industrial artificial intelligence.   There are two thoughts - one, I will call the super intelligence that oversees the big picture and communicates to a complex system what each process should or ought to be doing.  Most systems operate from this notion.  The second is a distributed intelligence system - the latest buzz word is "The Hive Intelligence".    Because of similarities with a Bee Hive - thus the buzz word.  But the bee hive is dominated by the superior Queen Bee.   Over the years I have become a proponent of the distributed system because it is much more effective and efficient.

Without going into all the detail the method of a true Hive Intelligence is many independent processes making decisions at the level where the information resides or work to be done.  Any discovered information is then passed into the hive collective that distributes this information to all processes that can use it.  In essence communication - data, information and commands become bidirectional.  I can give some rather simple examples if any one is actually interested.  But the point I want to make is that I believe that G-d operates by distributed intelligence.  G-d expects his human creations to make decisions as much as possible at their point of operations and to see understanding from counsels.  Even the station of G-d is a counsel we call the G-d Head comprised of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.  Thus we worship not just as individuals but also from the counsels in which we participate.  Like in marriage - we are never a single entity but a counsel - making our family also a means of worship. 

I bring this up because I think we are somewhat programmed to worship as an individual rather than a family or community.  I believe this worship by counsel to be part of the restored truth of the gospel and unique to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

 

The Traveler

It will be most interesting and enlightening if you can demonstrate how the “distributed intelligence system” harmonizes with the following verses from D&C 93:

12 And I, John, saw that he received not of the fulness at the first, but received grace for grace;
13 And he received not of the fulness at first, but continued from grace to grace, until he received a fulness;
14 And thus he was called the Son of God, because he received not of the fulness at the first.
15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son.
16 And I, John, bear record that he received a fulness of the glory of the Father;
17 And he received all power, both in heaven and on earth, and the glory of the Father was with him, for he dwelt in him.
18 And it shall come to pass, that if you are faithful you shall receive the fulness of the record of John.
19 I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship, and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.
20 For if you keep my commandments you shall receive of his fulness, and be glorified in me as I am in the Father; therefore, I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.
21 And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn; (D&C 93)

Edited October 23, 2018 by Jersey Boy

[zil]

1 hour ago, Jersey Boy said:

It will be most interesting and enlightening if you can demonstrate how the “distributed intelligence system” harmonizes with the following verses from D&C 93:

I think he interprets it as fully assimilated into the Borg, er, hive.