Is Satan Really That Bad?

[Jeny]

I started reading it yesterday. I've have the sad misfortune to see a little of me in some of what was being said. I do believe CS Lewis had a very good grasp on how the Enemy works. I, for one, will never minimize how dangerous he can be. He may not be able to force us to do something, but his ability to lead in the ways he wants is masterful.

Good for you, Sheelah!! I grew by leaps and bounds after and WHILE reading that book!! Now, when ever I recognise a tactic of Satan in my life...I say to myself: "Nope, sorry Screwtape...but you and wormwood are NOT going to win!!!"

[Sheelah]

Good for you, Sheelah!! I grew by leaps and bounds after and WHILE reading that book!! Now, when ever I recognise a tactic of Satan in my life...I say to myself: "Nope, sorry Screwtape...but you and wormwood are NOT going to win!!!"

No they won't!!

(Have you read Mere Christanity yet? It's very good too, at least until he tries to explain the Trinity.. Never did get through that last part.)

[checkerboy]

Just thought I'd throw my two cents in here. (By the way with all the cents I've thrown in lately, I'm probably up to a buck o five by now)

Just wondering how many posters here have been to the temple cause I believe that it is made pretty clear there who and what satan is.

I also believe that many miss the point of the scripture that says there must needs be opposition in all things. Lehi is giving a brilliant sermon on the gift of agency, you need to read the rest of the chapter (2 Nephi 2) and you will understand that there doesn't have to be bad in order to have good. What is important is the opportunity to choose bad or good. When we have that opportunity then we will know the good because we know the bad. We will only have that opportunity if we can be enticed one way or the other. Enter satan. If Adam and Eve had not been tempted they would have remained in the Garden because they had no opportunity to put their agency to the test. Hypothetically, if every one chose to do good that would eliminate all the bad in the world, right? But would it eliminate the opportunity to do bad? No because that is what the opposition in all things is all about - our agency to choose between bad and good. Satan chose bad and because of that he had to pay the consequences, now he wants us to choose bad so that we won't receive what he cannot receive. I don't blame satan for the worlds problems because those problems were created by men, who made the bad choices. But I believe they were enticed by satan to make those choices. Any way enough of my rambling. I too enjoy a good taco.

[Jeny]

No they won't!!

(Have you read Mere Christanity yet? It's very good too, at least until he tries to explain the Trinity.. Never did get through that last part.)

Yes, I read Mere Christianity while I was still a Baptist...I need to read it again with a clearer vision...you have inspired me to go to the library this week!!!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Do you have that quote from Pres, young i would like to read it.

When i was growing up, i was taught basic things about satan, and taught that if we talk too much about him, we are giving himm power over us. Do you guys believe that to be true (this was taught from my parents, in my home, not in sunday school, or anything)

I'll see if I can track it down; the last time I heard it was in a Hugh Nibley talk called Exaltation and Eternal Life.

The mp3-

http://speeches.byu.edu/?act=viewitem&id=838&tid=2

[Juliann]

Just wondering how many posters here have been to the temple cause I believe that it is made pretty clear there who and what satan is.

I don't think it is all that clear when it comes to specifics. I think we can get into plenty of trouble by ourselves. It probably isn't any better idea to assign whatever we consider to be "bad" to Satan than it is to assign everything we think is "good" to the Holy Ghost. We aren't puppets and at some point we have to take responsibility instead of relying on any particular "spirit" as the instigator.

[Guest moreholinessgiveme]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

Satan deserves no praise from us for the necessary part he is playing in the Plan of Salvation. His bondage is very real. He's not playing around, and he's certainly not out to do us any favors. He voluntarily goes about trying to destroy us. Stay as far away from him as possible.

[fish4kitty]

Satan deserves no praise from us for the necessary part he is playing in the Plan of Salvation. His bondage is very real. He's not playing around, and he's certainly not out to do us any favors. He voluntarily goes about trying to destroy us. Stay as far away from him as possible.

It's always good to know what or who your dealing with. I do agree though once you know, you are best to steer clear. If you already know the road is bad you don't go down it to just see whats there. Sometimes the road crumbles behind you.

kitty

[palabras_ardientes]

Satan is a Son of Perdition, meaning he is beyond redemption. His punishment is affixed and set. There is something to the fact that he was completely and fully aware of who God was and what was right and he still chose to go against that. He was in full view of the light, and still chose darkness. Hence, his denial of all that was holy leaves him without another chance. His entire will and purpose is bent on our destruction. Satan was in the garden. Take a look at the Joseph Smith Translation and the doctrine of the church. The author of all evil took it into his hands to deal with our first parents, Just as he personally took it into his hands to go against the Son of God again when Christ atoned for us. The heavens wept over Lucifer's fall. Of course there was great mourning when those sons and daughters of God rebelled and fell. These are the children of our Heavenly Father, our sisters and brothers who we knew and associated with. Can you imagine the heartache of the heavens as we watched our loved ones turn their backs to the light? There should be sorrow for the fall that they underwent, and heartache for their loss, but not pity. He would use that sympathy to poison us by degrees and lull us into a false sense of security. Can you tell I'm passionate about this? Know the adversary, and know his tools and ploys, but do not ever take part in them or lower your standards in order to learn about him better. He would dilute our minds and murder us even as we mourned for him. Read about Amalackiah in the Book of Mormon. He is a very chilling portrayal and type of the devil. Read about Lehonti, and about the Lamanite King.

[Kate]

Satan is a Son of Perdition, meaning he is beyond redemption. His punishment is affixed and set. There is something to the fact that he was completely and fully aware of who God was and what was right and he still chose to go against that. He was in full view of the light, and still chose darkness. Hence, his denial of all that was holy leaves him without another chance. His entire will and purpose is bent on our destruction. Satan was in the garden. Take a look at the Joseph Smith Translation and the doctrine of the church. The author of all evil took it into his hands to deal with our first parents, Just as he personally took it into his hands to go against the Son of God again when Christ atoned for us. The heavens wept over Lucifer's fall. Of course there was great mourning when those sons and daughters of God rebelled and fell. These are the children of our Heavenly Father, our sisters and brothers who we knew and associated with. Can you imagine the heartache of the heavens as we watched our loved ones turn their backs to the light? There should be sorrow for the fall that they underwent, and heartache for their loss, but not pity. He would use that sympathy to poison us by degrees and lull us into a false sense of security. Can you tell I'm passionate about this? Know the adversary, and know his tools and ploys, but do not ever take part in them or lower your standards in order to learn about him better. He would dilute our minds and murder us even as we mourned for him. Read about Amalackiah in the Book of Mormon. He is a very chilling portrayal and type of the devil. Read about Lehonti, and about the Lamanite King.

Excellent post...and i completely agree!

~Kate

[Traveler]

I don't think it is all that clear when it comes to specifics. I think we can get into plenty of trouble by ourselves. It probably isn't any better idea to assign whatever we consider to be "bad" to Satan than it is to assign everything we think is "good" to the Holy Ghost. We aren't puppets and at some point we have to take responsibility instead of relying on any particular "spirit" as the instigator.

Where did you get this idea?

Just for those interested, Joseph Goebbles, (modern father of brainwashing) stated the changing the minds of an individual is only effective when the individual comes to believe their new stanse was completly their idea.

The Traveler

[tubaloth]

I don’t know how I missed this post, mostly because I have commented on topics like this before. Actually one of my Institute teacher years ago (as we were studying the Pearl of Great Price) brought up this idea. It really comes down to: do we NEED Satan vs Is satan Allowed to what he does.

The teacher actually tried to poke fun at the idea (much like the first post).

1. Heavenly Father had a “good” son, so to keep the universe balanced Heavenly Father had to have a “bad” son?

2. If satan is part (that we need him) in the Plan of Salvation, then glory/thanks should be given to him. With out Satan the plan would have failed?

The way I have come to look at it is really based off of what we know from the Pre-mortal life.

Heavenly Father was there and to some degree had us try to learn and grow. We learn from Abraham 3 that we each grew in “intelligence” in varying degrees (where Christ grew more then any of us). We learn from Alma 13 that “good works” and “righteousness” were preformed in the Pre-mortal life (and this decided who got the Priesthood).

We learn that Agency was available to all including Satan.

The point being so far is that our existence in the pre-mortal life existed with out there being a “satan.” Even to the fact that nobody tempted (as far as we know) Satan to fall, or choose the path he did. He did it out of his own agency. That opposition can exsit with out there being a “satan.”

So would the plan of Salvation work with out satan? I believe it can and does just like it worked with out Satan before he fell.

Opposition comes from having a Law (of God). This gives it two sides, ether you do what God commands or you don’t. The “other” choice doesn’t really matter what it is, or even WHAT keeps us from keeping the commandment. We still aren’t keeping it.

So why didn’t we progress farther in the pre-mortal life?

I believe ether our lack of faith, or our own “pride” or some other desire kept us from progressing. I think the same holds true here (and would to some extent if Satan wasn’t around). We still would lack in faith, we probably would give into the Natural man (we want everything now). We are lazy! Somebody else also mentioned this. I think there are times when the problem of disobedient is really just us! We might just make the choice to quickly! We might not act in faith like we should… Sometimes we are two quick to blame our lake of faith and natrual man choices onto Satan.

We realize that the test of this life doesn’t change with or with out Satan

(Abraham 3:25.)

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

The Goal from Pre-mortal life, onto this life has always been the same!

With Satan fallen, he knows the point of this life is. But Satan is only “allowed” to work with in the limits that God puts on him, and with in the Law of Agency. I think this Satan knows.

Heavenly Father knows the plan hasn’t changed, and the Goal is still there! God allows Satan to make the test maybe a little harder to let us realize what we can really overcome! But Satan operates with in the bounds of the Plan of Salvation that God had already set up. The Plan wouldn’t change (nor would the Goal of Celestial Glory). These have always existed.

Last two thoughts.

Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

This we don’t really know. We ASSUME because there is only one Christ and Savior that there is only one Satan. Because satan has so many followers who would know if you are getting tempted actually by THE satan or buy his cousin larry? Is Larry any less powerful then Satan? Who knows.

Has anybody here read the Screwtape letters by C. S. Lewis? They really introduce you to the enemy!! I highly recommend them!!!

Something along this line that is also really quite interesting is this article that Parly P. Pratt wrote titled A Dialogue between Joseph Smith and the Devil

Its an interesting read!

[Traveler]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

Part of the problem is not understanding clearly the difference between good and evil. They are opposit and have nothing in common. Evil is the focus of self - on self want, self desire, self gradification. Good is the focus on others (sacrifice of self - self want, self desire, self gradification) for the benefit of others.

G-d the Father and G-d the Son are examples of sacrifice for the benefit of others.

Satan is the example of self promotion, self need and achievement for self - without regard for others.

The Traveler

[Guest Hammer]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

Interesting question. Aren't we taught that good and evil, or sad and happy are all compounds in one. Wouldn't that mean they are inherent in each other and not necessary to have an opposited 'created'.

[ztodd]

If Lucifer wouldn't have fallen and become Satan, somebody else would have. That's as certain as anything else.

[Pa Pa]

He is the very definition of evil...