Is Satan Really That Bad?

[HiJolly]

I've never seen any scriptural evidence indicating that Satan wishes people to think he doesn't exist.

...except maybe the Book of Mormon...

2 Ne. 28: 19, 21-23

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

22 And behold, others he flattereth away, and telleth them there is no hell; and he saith unto them: I am no devil, for there is none and thus he whispereth in their ears, until he grasps them with his awful chains, from whence there is no deliverance.

23 Yea, they are grasped with death, and hell; and death, and hell, and the devil, and all that have been seized therewith must stand before the throne of God, and be judged according to their works, from whence they must go into the place prepared for them, even a lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment.

HiJolly

[imported_StructureCop]

...except maybe the Book of Mormon...

HiJolly

Fair enough. I do think the BoM tends to contain 19th century Christian folklore.

[Donny]

Thanks HiJolly, that scripture is what I had in mind. The BoM is full of warnings about Satan's tricks. He doesn't want us to believe he exists or there is such a thing as evil. He wants us to think we already have scriptures (a Bible! a Bible!) and don't need any more. He wants us to think we are wise and learned of ourselves instead of admitting our ignorance and submitting to Heavenly Father's wisdom -- that's his wicked plan.

Fair enough. I do think the BoM tends to contain 19th century Christian folklore.

How do you figure?

[Jeny]

Don't know if I've told you lately... but I love you.

Flattery will get you EVERYWHERE!!!

[Juliann]

He wants us to think we are wise and learned of ourselves instead of admitting our ignorance and submitting to Heavenly Father's wisdom -- that's his wicked plan.

Some people are wise and learned, I thought that was the point of our existence. Drama is good though, I guess.

[Deborah]

As to the OP, I think Satan's activities were anticipated by, rather than commissioned by an omnipotent God.

I agree. Evil I think has always existed along with good and God was able to organize the spirits and the world into what he called "good".

These veres in Genesis 1 are interesting:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Darkness is on the face of the deep until the Spirit of God moved on it and instead there was light which was "good". I pulled up this summary of darkness from LDS.org:

Woe unto them who put darkness for light, Isa. 5: 20 (2 Ne. 15: 20). Darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people, Isa. 60: 2. Jesus will give light to those that sit in darkness, Luke 1: 79. The light shines in darkness, and the darkness comprehends it not, John 1: 5 (D&C 45: 7). Cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light, Rom. 13: 12. Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, Eph. 5: 8-11. Because ye ask not, ye are not brought into the light but must perish in the dark, 2 Ne. 32: 4. Satan spreads the works of darkness, Hel. 6: 28-31. The powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, D&C 38: 8, 11-12. The whole world groans under darkness and sin, D&C 84: 49-54. If your eye be single to my glory, there shall be no darkness in you, D&C 88: 67. The works of darkness began to prevail among all the sons of men, Moses 5: 55.

I just found it interesting that the creation talks about separating the darkness and the light and we have all these scriptures about Satan and his works of darkness. Don't know what it means necessarily. Just an observation. I think there is more to the meanings of the words in Genesis regarding the creation.

[imported_StructureCop]

How do you figure?

First, a portrayal of Satan clearly influenced by medieval, not 6th or 7th century Israelite or early Christian beliefs. Same with the BoM descriptions of hell, which is inconsistent with the Hebrew concept of Sheol or the Greek Hades.

[MorningStar]

Satan sucks.

[Garden Girl]

Hi Deborah...

Hmmm...interesting observation... darkness and light...

Garden Girl

[Pa Pa]

Ron Beron's research has spurred me to question the traditional role of Satan as the consummate "bad guy." If God's plan requires opposition in all things, isn't "Satan" (Heb: Adversary) a requisite (and equally important) part of that plan? Must it also be that Satan (in some form or another) must exist and must have always existed, even in the afterlife? Does every planet have a Satan, or every universe, or what?

Bad to the bones (he does not have and never will) It is not just the one "act" in Garden...look at the world around us.

[Doctor Steuss]

Satan sucks.

I think I might throw that in my sig line.

[HiJolly]

Fair enough. I do think the BoM tends to contain 19th century Christian folklore.

I agree, in a really, really faithful way...

HiJolly

[HiJolly]

How do you figure[a 19th century worldview in the BoM]?

Since the Book of Mormon was translated by the power and gift of God, through Joseph Smith, then JS's worldview had an impact on the process. At least, that's my view. As one who has received revelation and had to interpret it into my own language (English, in this case), I can easily see how this can be so.

Adieu, anyone?

HiJolly

[selek]

I agree. Evil I think has always existed along with good and God was able to organize the spirits and the world into what he called "good".

To my limited understanding (and I'm about to state a heresy sure to cause cardiac distress throughout the entire SBC community), the concepts of good and evil are objective standards rather than arbitrary ones.

Most Christians (especially the Baptists) approach the concept of good and evil as wholly arbitrary- something is either good or evil simply because God decreed it as such.

It is my understanding, however, that God is great not because he makes the rules, but because he recognizes and submits to them.

If God makes the rules, or is otherwise above them, then all is capricousness. If on the other hand, God sees the rules and is bound by them (however voluntarily), then the universe remains a place of logic and order- and his greatness is magnified by his ability to comprehend and keep the fulness of the law.

Let's put it another way: According to conventional Christian thought, the Savior during his early ministry was wholly human and yet retained all his authority as God. With that authority, he could have commanded the bread turn to stone when he hungered and was tempted. He could have smoothed his own path and with the power of God commanded the very mountains to proclaim his divinity. In short, he could have done whatever he felt was necessary to ease his mortal sojourn.

But he didn't. His entire mortal life was subject to the same ills, weaknesses, temptations, and hardships as are ours. He suffered everything we do, and he alone kept the laws perfectly. And then, having done what we have not, he took our burdens upon himself and still kept the law.

He could have cheated. He could have used his divine power to suffer less. He could have used divine nepotism to lighten his burden, but he didn't. He suffered everything that we have and will, and then asked for more- and still kept the law perfectly. Therein lies his strength and his terrible majesty.

Christ's example and sacrifice are so powerful because he submitted to the same conditions we endure, and then submitted to the sum total of human suffering for sin, and still triumped.

In many ways, this is a type of God the Father's behavior. He is not great becuase he defines the standard. He is great because he exemplifies it. In many ways, this goes to the paradox of whether God can create a rock so big that he himself cannot lift it. If he arbitrarily assigns the line between good and evil, then there is no standard. He cannot, by definition, do anything evil.

If on the other hand, good and evil are objective standards, then God retains his agency. It likewise makes the adversary's actions more comprehensible.

Accepting the standard Christian understanding of Satan- we have a Son of the Morning Star, one of God's own elect committing the most collosal blunder in all of creation- trying to usurp God's throne for himself. However arrogant, however blinded by pride, jealousy, and sour grapes he may be- no one has ever assumed the Devil is a fool.

If God cannot cease to be God, if there is nothing in the universe besides his will, then it is impossible for God to surrender the thone and his glory as Satan demanded.

And only a complete and utter fool (or dupe) would demand that God surrender his throne unless he felt it was possible. Nor would he openly war against God unless he thought he had some means of winning.

The only hope Satan has of winning this fight (however slim a reed it might be) is that there is an objective standard. If God makes the rules at his whim and impulse, then there is no margin for victory (however pyrrhic). He's simply lost. His only rational support for carrying on this campaign is that there is an objective goal post he can measure against.

[poulsenll]

To my limited understanding (and I'm about to state a heresy sure to cause cardiac distress throughout the entire SBC community), the concepts of good and evil are objective standards rather than arbitrary ones.

Most Christians (especially the Baptists) approach the concept of good and evil as wholly arbitrary- something is either good or evil simply because God decreed it as such.

It is my understanding, however, that God is great not because he makes the rules, but because he recognizes and submits to them.

If God makes the rules, or is otherwise above them, then all is capricousness. If on the other hand, God sees the rules and is bound by them (however voluntarily), then the universe remains a place of logic and order- and his greatness is magnified by his ability to comprehend and keep the fulness of the law.

Let's put it another way: According to conventional Christian thought, the Savior during his early ministry was wholly human and yet retained all his authority as God. With that authority, he could have commanded the bread turn to stone when he hungered and was tempted. He could have smoothed his own path and with the power of God commanded the very mountains to proclaim his divinity. In short, he could have done whatever he felt was necessary to ease his mortal sojourn.

But he didn't. His entire mortal life was subject to the same ills, weaknesses, temptations, and hardships as are ours. He suffered everything we do, and he alone kept the laws perfectly. And then, having done what we have not, he took our burdens upon himself and still kept the law.

He could have cheated. He could have used his divine power to suffer less. He could have used divine nepotism to lighten his burden, but he didn't. He suffered everything that we have and will, and then asked for more- and still kept the law perfectly. Therein lies his strength and his terrible majesty.

Christ's example and sacrifice are so powerful because he submitted to the same conditions we endure, and then submitted to the sum total of human suffering for sin, and still triumped.

In many ways, this is a type of God the Father's behavior. He is not great becuase he defines the standard. He is great because he exemplifies it. In many ways, this goes to the paradox of whether God can create a rock so big that he himself cannot lift it. If he arbitrarily assigns the line between good and evil, then there is no standard. He cannot, by definition, do anything evil.

If on the other hand, good and evil are objective standards, then God retains his agency. It likewise makes the adversary's actions more comprehensible.

Accepting the standard Christian understanding of Satan- we have a Son of the Morning Star, one of God's own elect committing the most collosal blunder in all of creation- trying to usurp God's throne for himself. However arrogant, however blinded by pride, jealousy, and sour grapes he may be- no one has ever assumed the Devil is a fool.

If God cannot cease to be God, if there is nothing in the universe besides his will, then it is impossible for God to surrender the thone and his glory as Satan demanded.

And only a complete and utter fool (or dupe) would demand that God surrender his throne unless he felt it was possible. Nor would he openly war against God unless he thought he had some means of winning.

The only hope Satan has of winning this fight (however slim a reed it might be) is that there is an objective standard. If God makes the rules at his whim and impulse, then there is no margin for victory (however pyrrhic). He's simply lost. His only rational support for carrying on this campaign is that there is an objective goal post he can measure against.

Selek

Very profound.

Over the years, I have always been amazed at the lack of understanding of Satan's plan and objectives by Latter Day Saints. They adopt a typical "Christian" view that he is evil and has always been evil. Just as we become evil by slipping, step by step, into evil ways, so did Satan become evil.

It amazes me when I set in meetings and hear people propose programs or activities, especially for our youth, that attempt to give them only one choice without realizing that this was and is Satan's plan from the beginning. In the beginning his choice for them was to prevent them from doing evil, as is the excuse today, now his choice for them is for them to become evil like him.

Larry P

[Steele]

Hi All,

I caught a wave and surfed into today, and this was one of the first threads that I read. I must say, everyone sounds very intelligent, but with due respect, this debate is rather ludicrous. Since when is the reality or relative badness of Satan up for debate? Maybe put it to a vote? -- "All those who think Satan really exists, please raise your hand. Okay, of those, please raise your hand if you think he's not really that bad"

The reality and relative badness of Satan is shown repeatedly throughout the canonized scriptures, and any remaining question about these is because someone either didn't read them or didn't understand what they read.

Yes, it really is that simple.

(paddling back out to sea........)

[selek]

Hi All,

I caught a wave and surfed into today, and this was one of the first threads that I read. I must say, everyone sounds very intelligent, but with due respect, this debate is rather ludicrous. Since when is the reality or relative badness of Satan up for debate? Maybe put it to a vote? -- "All those who think Satan really exists, please raise your hand. Okay, of those, please raise your hand if you think he's not really that bad"

The reality and relative badness of Satan is shown repeatedly throughout the canonized scriptures, and any remaining question about these is because someone either didn't read them or didn't understand what they read.

Yes, it really is that simple.

(paddling back out to sea........)

In fairness, Steele, I think the original phrasing of the question was used as a rhetorical device to stimulate conversation rather than a literal inquiry- though I could be mistaken.

You might also consider, that given the number of variant interpretations of Scripture even amongst the Christians, it is well within the bounds of possibility that even faithful members are all on the same page.

There are distinct communities in Christian thought on Satan (many, but not all, are considered heretical).

One is that Satan is a dupe and patsy, created specifically to carry out his historical actions by an omnipotent God who needed a fall guy. People in this crowd then tend to hold God responsible for evil (committed or inspired by his proxy and creation).

Another is that Satan is really an angel of light who has been commissioned to the role of accuser and tormentor (kinda like a District Attorney) but that he is really still on the Lord's side.

There are those who beleive that Satan is indeed a fallen angel and is actively opposing God only out of spite and bitterness,

And finally there are those of us who beleive that Satan has his agency- he has chosen, and sincerely believes he's going to triumph (despite all evidence to the contrary).

And each of these schools of thought (and many others) can be supported from the limited information available on Satan from the various canons of Scripture.

Things are not so black and white as you are wont to claim- and many truths of the Gospel are only discovered by looking into the deep places instead of found scattered along the well-marked trail.

Oh, and welcome, by the way!

[Steele]

selek,

Thank you for the reply and for the welcome. Interesting concepts that you share here, and I must admit that I've never considered or come across some of them -- the notion that Satan is a dupe, a patsy, a D.A., really on the Lord's side, etc. I can assure you that Satan is certainly not on the Lord's side -- quite the opposite, in fact. Satan is, shall we say, "hell-bent" on our total and complete misery and destruction. The Lord is a Builder while Satan is a destroyer. Not many people, myself included, like the idea that someone is out to destroy them: destroy their happiness, their resolve and commitment, their family, their virtue, their integrity, their strength, and in short, their very soul. This is not fun to think about, and I can see why some would like to soften the blows and suggest that he can't really be that bad, can he? Someone else above said it best when they quoted 2 Nephi 28:22 (link): "...I am no devil, for there is none..." Yeah, right.

As for "variant interpretations of Scripture", this thing ought not to be. We both know that the Good Lord doesn't give scriptures for variant interpretations (link).

I guess I'm going on a few assumptions here, firstly that this is forum for LDS believers (and not necessarily Christians at large, which is fine; I'm just not sure about the demographics of the audience), and secondly, that reference to "canonized scriptures" means canonized LDS scriptures. My apologies about assuming anything (you know what they say about assuming...) -- I didn't mean to be the new guy, bursting into the room with pistols drawn, only to find that it was the wrong room.....

Someday, we will take a squinty, narrow look at this man Satan and effectively say, "So, this(link) is the man that made the earth tremble and caused kingdoms to shake, etc. Wow, look at him now. What a loser."

Actually, I believe this doctrine is very much black and white......

Peace,

Steele

[selek]

selek,

Thank you for the reply and for the welcome. Interesting concepts that you share here, and I must admit that I've never considered or come across some of them -- the notion that Satan is a dupe, a patsy, a D.A., really on the Lord's side, etc. I can assure you that Satan is certainly not on the Lord's side -- quite the opposite, in fact. Satan is, shall we say, "hell-bent" on our total and complete misery and destruction. The Lord is a Builder while Satan is a destroyer. Not many people, myself included, like the idea that someone is out to destroy them: destroy their happiness, their resolve and commitment, their family, their virtue, their integrity, their strength, and in short, their very soul. This is not fun to think about, and I can see why some would like to soften the blows and suggest that he can't really be that bad, can he? Someone else above said it best when they quoted 2 Nephi 28:22 (link): "...I am no devil, for there is none..." Yeah, right.

As for "variant interpretations of Scripture", this thing ought not to be. We both know that the Good Lord doesn't give scriptures for variant interpretations (link).

I guess I'm going on a few assumptions here, firstly that this is forum for LDS believers (and not necessarily Christians at large, which is fine; I'm just not sure about the demographics of the audience), and secondly, that reference to "canonized scriptures" means canonized LDS scriptures. My apologies about assuming anything (you know what they say about assuming...) -- I didn't mean to be the new guy, bursting into the room with pistols drawn, only to find that it was the wrong room.....

Someday, we will take a squinty, narrow look at this man Satan and effectively say, "So, this(link) is the man that made the earth tremble and caused kingdoms to shake, etc. Wow, look at him now. What a loser."

Actually, I believe this doctrine is very much black and white......

Peace,

Steele

Actually, Steele, you and I are in agreement. The only thing I've seen in your posts that strikes me as anywhere near remotely objectionable is the idea that there is no room for varying interpretations.

It's an old saw that where you have three Mormons you'll have five opinions. So long as there is agency, there's room to be wrong . Even our GA's don't always see eye to eye, and they are (at least in theory) closer to the true kingdom than any of us lowly internet serfs.

And guns blazing or not, you didn't wing anybody.

[Steele]

Hi selek -- very well said.

P.S.

The "Yankee Pot Roast Done Right" recipe looks great, making me hungry.....!

[MorningStar]

I'm no scholar, but I can say without hesitancy that Satan is really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really really bad.

[MorningStar]

Satan ist schlecht!

[Lightbearer]

Yes he is really bad and he became bad because of his own pride and arrogance. The scripture in Moses in the Pearl of Great Price states:

(Moses 4:1-6) "And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down; And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice. And now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which I, the Lord God, had made. And Satan put it into the heart of the serpent, (for he had drawn away many after him,) and he sought also to beguile Eve, for he knew not the mind of God, wherefore he sought to destroy the world."

Note here that Satan sought to destroy the world, he unwittingly furthered God's plans, he was not a collaborater. He has one desire in this war that started in heaven, and that is explained here:

(2 Nephi 2:27) "Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and call things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself."

He wants us to be miserable like himself, he also wants to defy God and to "prove" that his plan (of no agency) was right all along. He still believes he was right and he does not care who he destroys or how he does it. He hates us, he hates all mankind because they have what he can never have: a body of flesh and bones and the opportunity to be exalted. That is why he tries to posses peoples bodies if they will let him. That is why he seeks to degrade God by denying He has a body, that is why he tries to portray the children of God as vile sinners who should never think they could ever become as God is...that we do not have the capacity to exercise our agency to do good. That is his evilness, he denys the plan of salvation just as he always did from the begining. Why is he called the father of lies? Why is he called the accuser of the brethern? Because that was his pattern from the begining, he also uses the barbed "IF" he tries to cause us to doubt ourselves and the word of God. He tries to neutralize faith by encouraging us to seek signs and to commit sin and to deny the witness of the Spirit of the Lord. He is more evil and more diabolical than any "19th century Christian" (or of the 21st century) could ever imagine. He is not the horned, fire breathing, pitchfork weilding monster that medival theologists paint him to be...he is much more horrible, because he was one of us, children of God the father who rejected his divine inheritance and now tries to get all of his former brothers and sisters to worship him, who is not a God of glory...because his glory is darkness to those enlightened by the Spirit of the true and living God. So yes he has become the ultimate evil, that which those who are carnally minded cannot recognize for who and what he is, that is why in our generation he loves to whisper "I am no devil for there is none." The good news is that we can overcome the wiles of the adversary through the power of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the priesthood of God.

[Ron Beron]

Fascinating (your love of tacos that is). Actually, I never even thought of the possibility that he was viewed as a "special messenger to afflict mankind." If you look at scripture (even LDS scripture) G-d does seem to use wicked people to inflict punishment/retribution. Why not have an angel who is given government over such a task (much like the designations given to Raphael, et.al. in the Book of Enoch)...

Ron,

When you say that you don't necessarily feel that there is a Satan, are you saying that you think there might not be an actual individual named "Son of the Morning/Lucifer"? Or do you believe that his role has been confused and conflated into a "Satan"?

Thanks,

Stu

Sorry, Doc for the tardiness of this email. I've had meetings aplenty.

Like the old Blood, Sweat and Tears song, "I pray there ain't no hell." While I cannot conceive of an individual semi-deity known as Satan I can really believe in a tangible evil that seems to find metaphysical form in either conscious or unconscious acts of humans. As to your first question. I think God used individuals within his council to try humans. The actual meaning behind Satan is "adversary" as in devils advocate. I wonder if he is there in the bible to provide a dichotomous statement of the good/evil of God's seeming duality or if he is there to scare the daylights out of doing bad and nasty things. Maybe both.

[Ron Beron]

I agree. Evil I think has always existed along with good and God was able to organize the spirits and the world into what he called "good".

These veres in Genesis 1 are interesting:

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

Darkness is on the face of the deep until the Spirit of God moved on it and instead there was light which was "good". I pulled up this summary of darkness from LDS.org:

Woe unto them who put darkness for light, Isa. 5: 20 (2 Ne. 15: 20). Darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people, Isa. 60: 2. Jesus will give light to those that sit in darkness, Luke 1: 79. The light shines in darkness, and the darkness comprehends it not, John 1: 5 (D&C 45: 7). Cast off the works of darkness and put on the armor of light, Rom. 13: 12. Have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, Eph. 5: 8-11. Because ye ask not, ye are not brought into the light but must perish in the dark, 2 Ne. 32: 4. Satan spreads the works of darkness, Hel. 6: 28-31. The powers of darkness prevail upon the earth, D&C 38: 8, 11-12. The whole world groans under darkness and sin, D&C 84: 49-54. If your eye be single to my glory, there shall be no darkness in you, D&C 88: 67. The works of darkness began to prevail among all the sons of men, Moses 5: 55.

I just found it interesting that the creation talks about separating the darkness and the light and we have all these scriptures about Satan and his works of darkness. Don't know what it means necessarily. Just an observation. I think there is more to the meanings of the words in Genesis regarding the creation.

Wow! Great references...something to think about.