Deborah

Enduring to the end is not easy. But keep in mind it's still not the end for many of these people. Life is a process and a school and sometimes we fail a class. But hopefully we come to our senses and get back on track. I love the phrase from the parable of the Prodigal son "And when he came to himself." We may stray but hopefully with prayers of loved ones and with a watchful God we may all come to ourselves when we do.

Anyone who wants to gain a testimony of the Prophet should listen to these. Truman Madsen is a brilliant scholar and you can see his passion and his love for the prophet as he recites these stories. When asked once why he studies the life of Joseph so much he said it's because it draws him closer to the Savior because Joseph seemed to know him so well.

How on earth do you come to the conclusion Christ won't be in the Celestial world? Those who inherit the Celestial kingdom will dwell with Elohim and Christ. Christ will minister to the Terrestrial world but will not dwell there. They "receive the presence of the Son" but not the Father. Christ is God and creator of this world. That he would condescend to come to earth and go through all he went through shows his great love for us. He has bought us with his blood and paid the price demanded by justice but in no sense has he lost any of his glory or godhood by so doing.

One of my favorite movies is Inn of the Sixth Happiness based on the life of Gladys Aylward. Her approach was simply to love the people and serve them and by doing so changed the lives of many around her. She showed her faith not through proselytizing but by her actions. Something like Ammon in his service to the Lamanite king.

So sorry, abqfriend. No manner of explanations help when you're in the midst of such crisis and pain.

And that is it in a nutshell. We chose to come to this earth and experience mortality so that we could grow in faith, compassion and patience. Some of us fail at times and some have given up, but trying to answer why is a hopeless task unless you believe there is a purpose for it all and that purpose both precedes and goes beyond mortality.

Whatever the origin, I have no doubt the BOA is from God whether Joseph translated it from a certain set of Papyri or not. Unfortunately the debate continues while the actual facts elude us because we simply don't know. Scholars can disagree on the origin but I think the power of the book speaks for itself.

That is my thought. I also think that man may interpret the "scientific" evidence incorrectly or there may be some information that is missing. God has revealed many things to us, but he hasn't always told us how they came about. We can speculate all day long but in the end the science of how it happened will be explained and when we come to that moment we will realize how limited our understanding in mortality was.

A very good point. Also if we are looking at scriptures written anciently we need to realize that times change and the Lord recognizes the changes that need to be made in how things are done. Doctrine doesn't change but the way we apply it in our lives will vary with the society and the time and I think this is very much an indication of how cognizant the Lord is of our lives and struggles and what we as a people need to best live the gospel.

I just happened to listen to a talk by Craig Ostler on recognizing the spirit. It was very enlightening. The main point was that yes we have the burning bushes and the Kirkland Temple experiences, but most revelation from the beginning to the present has been in that still, calm spirit that resides in our hearts and that at the same time gives us intelligence. The spirit is not just a warm feeling, but must be accompanied by this intelligence or enlightenment or this desire to do something. Br. Ostler also talked about what revelation we receive depends on what our purpose is in asking for it. In other words we must know what to ask for and ask for the right reasons. I realized in listening to him how much revelation I have received without naming it as such at the time. It is that spirt or inspiration which causes us to turn direction or study more or do something we really weren't intending to do. It's for example being in a place where you are just at that moment when someone needs your assistance. If we are expecting the trumpets and glorious visions we will miss those daily moments of pure revelation we receive as we go about our daily lives. Learning to recognize the spirit takes practice and as we do it more and more, it is amazing how often we find ourselves receiving that inspiration or guidance as we go about our daily tasks and how much easier it is to discern from the true spirit and just our own desires.

It truly was a sacrifice beyond our comprehension. And it was a sacrifice made willingly out of love. I suppose that's why I get a little upset at some of the too-casual references to Jesus such as the bumper stickers that say "Honk for Jesus." I think that such things minimize what it was Jesus actually did for us. If we truly comprehended certainly we would all reverence him much more.

I think this is the greatest lust of the Gadianton Robbers. But it's interesting that he says "But behold, the devil hath deceived me; for he appeared unto me in the form of an angel, and said unto me: Go and reclaim this people, for they have all gone astray after an unknown God. And he said unto me: There is no God; yea, and he taught me that which I should say." This sounds like what some of our EV friends who want to reclaim the LDS people.

Not all ex-Mo's are Anti and not all Anti's are ex-Mo's. But when someone comes out with strident personal character assassinations against the prophets or accuses LDS of being brainwashed or unenlightened then I think the label fits pretty well. It is one thing to disagree with the archeological facts or even the origins of the BOM, but quite another to start making personal accusations based on one's interpretation of what little evidence there is and especially to do it in LDS venues.

That is an interesting point because to fall for the anti line you have to accept what is negative and pretty much ignore or deny the positive. This is what I don't understand about those who all of a sudden discover some facet of the faith that creates doubt: instead of focusing on all the positives they've had in their life to that point, it's like that one seed of doubt starts taking over and soon grows to overshadow all the good they once believed. Instead of having faith that their questions will one day be answered by the Lord they would rather let those who hate the Lord and his church speak for him.

I agree that it can mean the strength to fulfill our callings. I look at Pres. Hinckley and see the promise of this blessing. Of course his body is winding down but I don't doubt if needed he would find renewed strength. In fact at the dedication of the Omaha Temple he opened with a very weak voice and could barely speak. As he began the dedicatory prayer his voice grew deep and you could see the strength return as he spoke and he spoke with great power. I think this is an example of what that means.