Ev Conversation

[ztodd]

But then you're treating us like children and that's not helpful. :) We're educated adults who have thoughtfully and prayerfully considered our beliefs.

...

I'm trying to help you understand the way we perceive your analogy. If you ever wish to have a productive discussion with Mormons, don't compare us to naive little children who don't know any better than to play in an elevator shaft. Your analogy implies you are the wise adult and we are the helpless children

I think you read a little too much into it MorningStar. Try not to take analogies too literally. There is a scripture in D & C that says "it becometh every man who hath been warned to warn his neighbor". WCU is just stating that same principle. It doesn't mean he thinks we haven't carefully studied and prayed and thought it out. Is that you think of your neighbors when you try to share the gospel with them?

Also I thought I'd point out that it seems a little hypocritical that Honos was so upfront about not attacking the mormon faith, when in the very next post we find a mormon attacking other faiths (I don't mean to pick on that member-it's just an example of what many mormons do) but the mods don't seem to care as much about that. QuorumPrez said the rule was "Do not use the boards to proselytize (pro- or anti-) or bash others beliefs". He didn't say just mormon beliefs.

I'm sorry if I'm stepping out of line-it's just one of the concerns I have about my own mormon culture. I hope it doesn't seem that I'm defending WCU's behavior - I'm just trying to make sure the rules apply to everyone.

[HiJolly]

I'm sorry if I'm stepping out of line-it's just one of the concerns I have about my own mormon culture. I hope it doesn't seem that I'm defending WCU's behavior - I'm just trying to make sure the rules apply to everyone.

I hope you're reporting them when you see them, Ztodd.

HiJolly

[Dale]

I don't mind a discussion of the witnessing questions. Some of these question's can be fun to explore the answer's to. I found it increased confidence in what i thought every time i discovered a great answer. Here's a link to SHIELDS 42 Questions Main Page. http://www.shields-research.org/42_Questions/42qumain.htm A response to the issue about Moroni is given on the page they linked to from the main page. The question answered was question 12.

[Juliann]

I'm sorry if I'm stepping out of line-it's just one of the concerns I have about my own mormon culture. I hope it doesn't seem that I'm defending WCU's behavior - I'm just trying to make sure the rules apply to everyone.

This board already has moderators.

[Dale]

Hello,

My name is Justin and I am a traditional Christian. I hope to have a conversation with the LDS people. Is there anything you have wanted to ask an evangelical?

My first question is if Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God?

I don't think getting upset at WCU was the way to handle it. I had a ex-LDS friend at work whose Pastor had showed him a large stack of materials documenting the error's of Mormonism. So he come's to me and start's launching into all the trivia he had ever heard. So i guess for about 45 minute's i went back and forth with him on his trivia and giving answer's to his concern's. He finally ran out of steam and hopefully had more respect for the LDS , and the Community of Christ as a result. A guy who had listened to us complemented me in how i handled myself. He thought i did pretty good.

I have got a list of "Forty provocative Questions." Since this discussion was kind of dead i thought i would throw out some for fun. They were taken from a an ex-member of my faith who started up an Evangelical ministry to try to save my people from hell. I have this book entitled On Behalf of Christ's Restored Gospel(CARE) which has a paper by Jim Reeves and Jon Tandy which cites, and responds to the question's The article is entitled Answers to "Forty Provocative Questions". (pages 33-72)

It's in a small 136 page apologetic book by some RLDS folks. You can tell it's not an LDS book because a cross is on the front, and scriptural versification and for our editions of the scriptures are different so don't work with the LDS editions. A picture of the book is found at the Angel message bookstore if anybody want's to do a search.

1.The Book of Mormon tells of the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanite's. This battle took place on Hill Cumorah in New York, where the gold plate's were hidden if hundreds of thousands of people fought in this great War, as the Book of Mormon claim's, why are there no artifacts as evidence? (Book of Mormon p.702-703)

I know Brant Gardner has dealt with this issue in his review of Bible vs. The Book of Mormon. (Living Hope Ministries) http://www.fairlds.org It's in the FAIR Hot Spots section on the left of the main page. If you go to the article it's in the Warfare section of his review. The question assumes the Hill Cumorah in New York was the location of the battle. If you look in the wrong place of course you won't find any artifacts. He explains the Aztecs fought great battles but have not found such artifacts, or bodies. The Aztecs were later than the Book of Mormon people's. His answer is better and more precise than my poorly written summary.

[snipe123]

I don't think getting upset at WCU was the way to handle it. I had a ex-LDS friend at work whose Pastor had showed him a large stack of materials documenting the error's of Mormonism. So he come's to me and start's launching into all the trivia he had ever heard. So i guess for about 45 minute's i went back and forth with him on his trivia and giving answer's to his concern's. He finally ran out of steam and hopefully had more respect for the LDS , and the Community of Christ as a result. A guy who had listened to us complemented me in how i handled myself. He thought i did pretty good.

I have got a list of "Forty provocative Questions." Since this discussion was kind of dead i thought i would throw out some for fun. They were taken from a an ex-member of my faith who started up an Evangelical ministry to try to save my people from hell. I have this book entitled On Behalf of Christ's Restored Gospel(CARE) which has a paper by Jim Reeves and Jon Tandy which cites, and responds to the question's The article is entitled Answers to "Forty Provocative Questions". (pages 33-72)

It's in a small 136 page apologetic book by some RLDS folks. You can tell it's not an LDS book because a cross is on the front, and scriptural versification and for our editions of the scriptures are different so don't work with the LDS editions. A picture of the book is found at the Angel message bookstore if anybody want's to do a search.

1.The Book of Mormon tells of the final battle between the Nephites and Lamanite's. This battle took place on Hill Cumorah in New York, where the gold plate's were hidden if hundreds of thousands of people fought in this great War, as the Book of Mormon claim's, why are there no artifacts as evidence? (Book of Mormon p.702-703)

I know Brant Gardner has dealt with this issue in his review of Bible vs. The Book of Mormon. (Living Hope Ministries) http://www.fairlds.org It's in the FAIR Hot Spots section on the left of the main page. If you go to the article it's in the Warfare section of his review. The question assumes the Hill Cumorah in New York was the location of the battle. If you look in the wrong place of course you won't find any artifacts. He explains the Aztecs fought great battles but have not found such artifacts, or bodies. The Aztecs were later than the Book of Mormon people's. His answer is better and more precise than my poorly written summary.

Actually The Book of Mormon itself says that all of the records from which Mormon made his abridgment were buried in the hill Cumorah, and the plates themselves were given to his son Moroni, who then wandered with them for years until he buried them in Upstate New York...The plates were not deposited in the same hill where the battle occured...all the other records were...

EDIT: Mormon 6:6 is my reference for the above statement:

"...therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. "

[MorningStar]

Actually The Book of Mormon itself says that all of the records from which Mormon made his abridgment were buried in the hill Cumorah, and the plates themselves were given to his son Moroni, who then wandered with them for years until he buried them in Upstate New York...The plates were not deposited in the same hill where the battle occured...all the other records were...

EDIT: Mormon 6:6 is my reference for the above statement:

"...therefore I made this record out of the plates of Nephi, and hid up in the hill Cumorah all the records which had been entrusted to me by the hand of the Lord, save it were these few plates which I gave unto my son Moroni. "

Thank you for pointing that out!

[LifeOnaPlate]

Just wanted to point out that our WCU friend Justin said he refuses to read the Book of Mormon because it is boring.

[MorningStar]

Just wanted to point out that our WCU friend Justin said he refuses to read the Book of Mormon because it is boring.

Has he read the Old Testament?

[HiJolly]

Has he read the Old Testament?

Hmmm... on the one hand, the OT book of Numbers. On the other, a large portion of the Book of Mormon book of Alma.

toss up? ----no, I think Numbers is way more boring. Just my opinion...

HiJolly

[Dale]

Just wanted to point out that our WCU friend Justin said he refuses to read the Book of Mormon because it is boring.

I keep on hoping he come's back.. If he has a list of question's that would like to find answer's to i wouldn't mind helping him. I still have 39 question's from my book i could raise for the discussion if WCU/ Justin doesn't have any more. If the question's arn't raised to witness, but out of sincere interest in finding answers i would love to work with him. He would be surprised about how much research has been done in answering the issues behind the question's.

I think the Book of Mormon as i read it exciting myself. I used to think the text boring, but i changed my mind. I find reading parts of the Old Testament much more boring to me.

[MorningStar]

Hmmm... on the one hand, the OT book of Numbers. On the other, a large portion of the Book of Mormon book of Alma.

toss up? ----no, I think Numbers is way more boring. Just my opinion...

HiJolly

We are reading the OT as a family. It became so painfully boring and non uplifting at parts, we started reading The Book of Mormon again in addition to the OT. I think we were in Leviticus at the time. Now we're in Judges and we're feeling a little overwhelmed by how long it is going to take us. We tried to calculate it and it looks roughly like two years.

Some parts of Alma are great. A friend of mine jokes that they had to put a lot of war in The Book of Mormon to keep the men interested.

[avatar4321]

Couple of points:

First, numbers is probably the second least boring book out of the books of Moses because there is actually stuff going on rather than rules.

Second, wouldnt a traditional Christian be Catholic or Orthodox? When did evangelicals join the traditional ranks?

Third, an Angel is a messenger. In fact, there are many appearances of Jehovah referenced as an Angel. I dont think He lost His Godhood during a visit simply because He was acting as a messenger.

Fourth, the children analogy is very bad. Seeing people drive off a cliff is a much better analogy because it doesnt insult anyone.

Fifth, its impossible to warn someone against something that you have no knowledge of. If you havent read the Book of Mormon, how do you know its dangerous?

[mnn727]

The one thing we have learned about the original poster from interaction on the FAIR borads is that he asks questions and watches the thread for 1 or maybe 2 days and then disappears - not real conducive to discussion or learning IMHO.

[Khamette]

Hello,

My name is Justin and I am a traditional Christian. I hope to have a conversation with the LDS people. Is there anything you have wanted to ask an evangelical?

My first question is if Moroni devoutly practiced the Mormon Gospel, why is he an angel now rather than a God?

No, actually, I don't have anything to ask you. I was raised a baptist as a young'un so I pretty much know what it's about and don't ever care to go back.

[LdsNana]

Couple of points:

First, numbers is probably the second least boring book out of the books of Moses because there is actually stuff going on rather than rules.

Second, wouldnt a traditional Christian be Catholic or Orthodox? When did evangelicals join the traditional ranks?

Third, an Angel is a messenger. In fact, there are many appearances of Jehovah referenced as an Angel. I dont think He lost His Godhood during a visit simply because He was acting as a messenger.

Fourth, the children analogy is very bad. Seeing people drive off a cliff is a much better analogy because it doesnt insult anyone.

Fifth, its impossible to warn someone against something that you have no knowledge of. If you havent read the Book of Mormon, how do you know its dangerous?

4321,

Blast OFF! LOL... Will you be my friend.

Okay, now we are talking with some sound and reasonable person here folks. Here is an individual who knows what they are speaking about.

Numbers could be considered the "Handbook of Instructions" for the children of Israel. If you do not know what you have before you, then you shall never make the connection to try and understand it. It is a facinating book with deep application to the church today IF one knows how to interpret its meaning. Jesus Christ is deeply embedded therein.

Evangelicals actually are orthodox christians, as they never actually abandoned the corrupt theology, ie the godhead for instance and also mode of baptism for most, etc.... as much as most of them would like to believe. (wierd, huh 4321? but true)

You are spot on with bringing Christ into the conversation as a messenger as was Moroni... very good form my friend.

Analogy is very bad... you right on this one, need I say more?

No credibility... he has not read BoM. Done.

TOUCH DOWN!

[HiJolly]

Avatar4321 and gVr,

Ok, it's obvious I need to go back and read Numbers again. I last read it (twice) in the 70's, and back then, it was just tedious. I'll erase that old opinion based on your comments, and put the book into my scripture-reading queue.

Thanks for your views!

HiJolly

[MorningStar]

I think Leviticus was the one we really struggled through - whichever one gave all the laws regarding the death penalty. Once it started talking about the death penalty regarding beastiality, we wanted to start reading The Book of Mormon again.

[LdsNana]

Hey All!

I am not so smart. I just love to study up:-) One resource I have enjoyed with the OT are the Round Table discussions over at KBYU TV. You can even watch or listen to them online. They are really quite interesting and they give a good summary that really helps your study of the scriptures. Also, the student manuals for Institute are excellent resources for all of the standard works. Again, available online.....

Check them out... Here is the link.

CES Website for Institute Manuals Online that you can download

[Dale]

FairWiki has an article in developement answering 50 Question's a ministry raised for LDS. I might have responded to a few item's differently, but it has some good content.

http://en.fairmormon.org/50_Answers