Word Of Wisdom

[WillowTheWhisp]

How can I be sure it's alright to drink even herbal tea and still receive all the blessings prescribed in D&C 89, and that the whole "Herbal tea is okay" thing isn't just a working of Satan, having used his guile and persuasion to deprive many of those blessings?

I suppose the only answer to that is really to pray about it. If you personally do not feel happy taking a drink which others feel happy with then perhaps you will feel happier avoiding it but that doesn't mean it is necessary for all of us to do the same. However, if at some later date a prophet declared that we should not drink any hot drink at all including herbal teas then I would avoid them.

Interestingly the WOW states 'hot drinks' but I also believe iced tea is against the WOW because it is made from the same ingredients but then cooled

[Elgama]

What makes Camellia sinensis, the tea plant, different than, say, Chamomile? Aside from caffeine?

its not addictive for one - and I tend to use rosemary, sage and ginger, thyme makes a lovely tea too and fennel, I find peppermint great for a cold. All these I would use on food anyway or in stock for a soup.

-Charley

[VisionOfLehi]

Yeah. Iced tea is out in my book, too.

“ ‘I understand that some of the people are excusing themselves in using tea and coffee, because the Lord only said “hot drinks” in the revelation of the Word of Wisdom. …

“ ‘[Tea and coffee] are what the Lord meant when He said “hot drinks” ’ ” (Joseph Smith, as quoted by Joel H. Johnson, A Voice from the Mountains [salt Lake City: Juvenile Instructor Office, 1881], p. 12).

*Shrug*

I think I'll be confused until the Prophets come out and take on official stance, but I don't see them doing that any time soon.

It just seems like justification to me... Falling into a trap of Satan. It's probably not a big deal, but I don't think the adversary tries to get us with big deals. To me it's like the "Rated R" movie thing...

I'm not saying any one who drinks herbal tea is unworthy or anything! As if I could judge that, lol.

[Elgama]

Yeah. Iced tea is out in my book, too.

*Shrug*

I think I'll be confused until the Prophets come out and take on official stance, but I don't see them doing that any time soon.

It just seems like justification to me... Falling into a trap of Satan. It's probably not a big deal, but I don't think the adversary tries to get us with big deals. To me it's like the "Rated R" movie thing...

I'm not saying any one who drinks herbal tea is unworthy or anything! As if I could judge that, lol.

If it was such a big deal there wouldn't be stories in church manuals and the Ensign about people drinking hot chocolate and herbal tea. But to you its a big deal and thats what counts, its the stage you are at. If it was an outright no we would at very least have had a specific conference talk or advice like we get pepsi/coca cola/IRN BRU etc

-Charley

[sixpacktr]

Like Willow I see them more in keeping with the Word of Wisdom than not - I make my own by drying herbs and putting them in a little muslim, I find they relax, calm and warm me and are less fattening than juice (which has its place), a change from water and overall a lot healthier than hot chocolate which I see as an occasional treat not a pre bedtime drink.

-Charley

How small of a Muslim do you use?

[VisionOfLehi]

its not addictive for one - and I tend to use rosemary, sage and ginger, thyme makes a lovely tea too and fennel, I find peppermint great for a cold. All these I would use on food anyway or in stock for a soup.

-Charley

Caffeine is what makes it addictive. I don't think the Lord would have said "no tea" if He just didn't want us to have a caffeinated hot drink.

If it were about being addictive, I don't see why the Lord would not have included another famous addictive substance: Chocolate. ESPECIALLY since Hot Chocolate has been a hot beverage for over a millennium, and has very few health benefits, especially in light of all its detrimental effects.

But, as I've been say... "I don't," and that's just me.

[Elgama]

How small of a Muslim do you use?

lol I always do that - and I am wishing I had a smart reply other than I am a complete fruit and nut.

-Charley

[Elgama]

Caffeine is what makes it addictive. I don't think the Lord would have said "no tea" if He just didn't want us to have a caffeinated hot drink.

If it were about being addictive, I don't see why the Lord would not have included another famous addictive substance: Chocolate. ESPECIALLY since Hot Chocolate has been a hot beverage for over a millennium, and has very few health benefits, especially in light of all its detrimental effects.

But, as I've been say... "I don't," and that's just me.

I thought dark chocolate and cocoa had significant health benefits, I know it is recognised right now as a superfood for children - however the moment you add milk and sugar it becomes a different thing? and you have clearly never had PMS it has significant health benefits for my whole family at certain times of the month lol, they get to keep their ear drums in place and get fed.

-Charley

[VisionOfLehi]

If it was such a big deal there wouldn't be stories in church manuals and the Ensign about people drinking hot chocolate and herbal tea. But to you its a big deal and thats what counts, its the stage you are at. If it was an outright no we would at very least have had a specific conference talk or advice like we get pepsi/coca cola/IRN BRU etc

-Charley

Which Church manuals? Leadership ones? That'd be good if they were!

Herbal tea is never mentioned in Church magazines by presiding authorities of any kind, save once in 1984 by Elder Wells of the 1st 70.

Most people in the Church accept it, as is my experience. I would not be surprised to find that the Prophets drink it, so it's probably okay... But how does anyone change the fact that it's still called "tea" and is a "hot drink?"

I'm not against the idea of it being consumed at all... I just don't see where it's said that it's okay, aside from tradition.

[VisionOfLehi]

I thought dark chocolate and cocoa had significant health benefits, I know it is recognised right now as a superfood for children - however the moment you add milk and sugar it becomes a different thing? and you have clearly never had PMS it has significant health benefits for my whole family at certain times of the month lol, they get to keep their ear drums in place and get fed.

-Charley

It has beneficial effects on the heart, when used properly, and mostly when it's dark chocolate (the darker the better), and not milk chocolate. Theobromine, which chocolate has a lot of, has a lot of "effects" that are beneficial, supposing you NEED them at them time. On the downside "Theobromine can cause sleeplessness, tremors, restlessness, anxiety, as well as contribute to increased production of urine. Additional side effects include loss of appetite, nausea, and vomiting."

"I found in the Word of Wisdom a principle with a promise. The principle: Care for your body; avoid habit-forming stimulants, tea, coffee, tobacco, liquor, and drugs (see D&C 89:3–9). Such addictive things do little more than relieve a craving which they caused in the first place." “Ye Are the Temple of God” President Boyd K. Packer

[Elgama]

Which Church manuals? Leadership ones? That'd be good if they were!

Herbal tea is never mentioned in Church magazines by presiding authorities of any kind, save once in 1984 by Elder Wells of the 1st 70.

Most people in the Church accept it, as is my experience. I would not be surprised to find that the Prophets drink it, so it's probably okay... But how does anyone change the fact that it's still called "tea" and is a "hot drink?"

I'm not against the idea of it being consumed at all... I just don't see where it's said that it's okay, aside from tradition.

no none of it is by presiding authorities I just remember stories taken from manuals one I remembered from the Ensign

LDS.org - New Era Article - Mountains in Montreal - oops New Era I knew I had read it in a church magazine

the young man made herbal tea.

I did have a quick prayer about this whilst going to put laundry in the washing machine and screaming at the kids to Please get some clothes on its 1pm - and the one thing popped into my head

Tea, Coffee, Alcohol, Tobacco, and misuse of other drugs medicinal or illegal encompasses some of the most addictive substances regularly consumed by humans, the First Presidency whilst not adding it to the Word of Wisdom have advised caution with caffeinated sodas. How many times as a Brit have I heard the phrase I'd join your church but I don't want to give up my tea or pint or glass of wine. These are the things that are in many way Idols that are placed above the Lord on a frequent daily basis. I could stop drinking rosemary, sage, peppermint etc tommorrow have no ill effects, suffer no withdrawal symptoms - merely replace them with warm milk and honey. So I guess the spirit of the law is if you are addicted and it can be placed above the Lord its in there.

-Charley

[Hemidakota]

I thought dark chocolate and cocoa had significant health benefits, I know it is recognised right now as a superfood for children - however the moment you add milk and sugar it becomes a different thing? and you have clearly never had PMS it has significant health benefits for my whole family at certain times of the month lol, they get to keep their ear drums in place and get fed.

-Charley

Correct. Caffeine has its merits and been proven medically.

VisionofLehi - if Caffeine was the culprit to why the Prophet Joseph Smith receive the WOW revelation, perhaps we should add all coca bean products - knowing that dark chocalate contains more than Tea or Coffee. However, that is not the case.

Study what brought this revelation to pass [hint: upper room where the GAs met and his wife Emma complaints].

[VisionOfLehi]

Umm, chocolate actually has low quantities of caffeine. It has more theobromine.

Off on a completely different tangent now, lol.

This reminds me of something amusing... and how we're supposed to be "in the world, but not of the world."

Mitt Romney spoke at a local college, and I decided to go with a friend. (Couldn't hurt to get more into politics, I guessed.) They were serving free coffee (and cookies.) I found this amusing, considering the candidate...

P.S. I nabbed about 5 cookies

[Hemidakota]

Average Chocolate Caffeine dosage:

Hershey's Milk Chocolate has 9mg per ounce

Hershey's Special Dark Bar has 12mg per ounce

Unsweetened baking chocolate has 23 mg per ounce

Now compare:

12 ounce average Coca-Cola drink has 34 mg [2.83mg per ounce]

12 ounce cup of coffee has about 160 mg [13.3mg per ounce- worse scenario since it may vary]

Yes, some here may drink cola....

[VisionOfLehi]

How about headache medicine? That's a big dose!

Excedrin- 130 mg.

Huh, I read something different on caffeine and chocolate, but I think I just misread it. Going back at the same link, it just means chocolate has a lot less caffeine than it does theobromine.

Wow. Check out the stats on this, taken from Hershey's own website.

Theobromine content:

Milk chocolate bar: 48 mg/oz

Special dark: 127 mg/oz

[Moksha]

Follow the guidance or prompting of the spirit. Unless you are of the age of eight years old.

In that case, I won't even ask about Johnsonville Beer n' Bratwurst sausages.

[Hemidakota]

How about headache medicine? That's a big dose!

Excedrin- 130 mg.

Huh, I read something different on caffeine and chocolate, but I think I just misread it. Going back at the same link, it just means chocolate has a lot less caffeine than it does theobromine.

Wow. Check out the stats on this, taken from Hershey's own website.

Theobromine content:

Milk chocolate bar: 48 mg/oz

Special dark: 127 mg/oz

Isn't Theobromine a lesser neural effect than caffeine [lesser homologue]?

Interesting research here. Thanks

[VisionOfLehi]

I'm not sure on all the effects of theobromine, but it's definitely a stimulant, and while not as addictive as caffeine, it is in much higher concentration in chocolate.

Getting a double dose of addictive substances all with one great tasting food

P.S. I almost exclusively eat dark chocolate when I have any at all . Milk is too sweet.

[Hemidakota]

I now why my companion loves dark chocolate. lol

[Aelswyth]

The Word of Wisdom says no "hot drinks", which Joseph Smith said meant "coffee and tea".

But plenty of LDS people drink herbal tea. Why is this?

I know the Word of Wisdom also says:

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

But how do you reconcile that with "no tea"? I've searched, and no talk given by the First Presidencies or Apostles ever mentions "herbal tea." They all say "no tea."

Would this not mean to use the herbs, but not as tea or drink?

Searching the scriptures, the talk about herbs is always about EATING them, not about DRINKING them...

I'm sorry, I'm confused about all of this. I know people who drink herbal tea are allowed in the temple, and that the Prophets, Seers, and Revelators have not spoken directly against it, but it does not make any sense to me to be okay with drinking it.

Does anyone have any scripture, or Presidency/Apostolic talk about the subject that talks about herbal tea? Or even a CES manual that mentions it?

Edit: To further add to my questioning... As I understand, most herbs used in teas have medicinal value. All of those just listed by Aelswyth, with the exception perhaps of Red Raspberry, all have medical effects. Shouldn't we be avoiding intaking medicines and drugs unless we need them? I can self-diagnose a headache or sinus problem and take an Advil or Sudafed, but those are FDA approved and come with directions/dosages on them. I don't find the same thing on a pack of tea...

First off, "tea" is only correctly applied to drinks made from the actual tea-leaf, Camellia sinensis. All other herbal infusions are correctly termed "tisanes", not "tea".

Secondly, almost all herbs, and other edible substances, have "medicinal" value to some extent or other. They are not medicines; they are foods with medicinal value, meaning they are substances which nourish in times of health and help heal in times of sickness. As the father of medicine, Hippocrates, famously said, "Let your food be your medicine and your medicine be food." Throughout human history, herbs have been studied and used by humans. There was a time when all people knew the uses, both medicinal and non-medicinal, of the God-given herbs of the earth. Later, this knowledge was maintained by a class of people, herbalists/witches/wizards/cunning folk, who shared their knowledge with those who asked and acted as the doctors of their people.

Now, very few people lay claim to the knowledge of natural medicines, preferring to hand over the care of their health to "professionals" and the FDA. I think that's really too bad. We should all have a basic knowledge of these things, just as the WoW states we should use the herbs of the earth with prudence. How can we exercise prudence in what we put into our bodies if we no longer even seek that knowledge but leave it up to "others" and consume substances we have no understanding of except that it's FDA approved???

The medicines in herbs may not be standardized, but they are packaged together in the most beneficial way, as compounds that are supposed to go together for our benefit, and which can only be dangerous when consumed in unlikely amounts, rather than one ingredient extracted, processed, concentrated, put in a little bottle completely isolated from the other substances that enhance its medicinal properties, and made so powerful that a small overdose can be dangerous or even fatal.

Right now I am 7 weeks pregnant and experiencing some bleeding, known as a "threatened miscarriage". I also experienced this with my first daughter, and thanks to my knowledge of natural remedies, I was able to drink red raspberry leaf tea and help stave off the possible loss of my pregnancy. I am drinking a cup or two daily now, and the bleeding is gradually tapering off. In a couple of days I will hopefully find that my pregnancy is continuing just fine (although there's always the chance it is doomed due to some chromosomal abnormality). Now, a mainstream doctor would not be able to offer any advice on this except to rest and take it easy. Because of my knowledge of this herbal lore thousands and thousands of years old in the traditions of our ancestors, I can be proactive in my own care rather than just a passive patient who feels at a loss.

There is a passage I like from the Deuterocanonical book of Sirach, chapter 38, verses 4 to 9, which praises natural medicine:

4 The Lord hath created medicines out of the earth; and he that is wise will not abhor them.

5 Was not the water made sweet with wood, that the virtue thereof might be known?

6 And he hath given men skill, that he might be honoured in his marvellous works.

7 With such doth he heal [men,] and taketh away their pains.

8 Of such doth the herbalist make a confection; and of his works there is no end; and from him is peace over all the earth,

9 My son, in thy sickness be not negligent: but pray unto the Lord, and he will make thee whole.

[Hemidakota]

According to Victor Ludlow, Herbal Tea is not part of the Word of Wisdom. [Principles and Practices of the Restored Gospel].

As Aelswyth has already mentioned concerning the Camellia Sinensis or known Black Tea or Green Tea is a major issue. Tea is defined by the early church leaders to the standard tea derived from the tea plant.

[VisionOfLehi]

Ael, you've been the most helpful so far! That's great information, especially the whole "tisane" thing.

But, "Medicinal values" or "Medicines" I still don't think they should be consumed on a regular basis unless you need it... Such as your Red Raspberry leaf.

And, I still do like actual medicine, myself. Though I'm sure someone could tell me certain herbs/foods that could help my moods and such, I doubt they can reproduce the effect of my Lamotrigine.

[Moksha]

I thought dark chocolate and cocoa had significant health benefits...

-Charley

Yes, chocolate is one of the essential building blocks for a happy diet. It has its own place in the food pyramid. Forget whatever it contains and just remember that it goes well with both ice cream and macadamia nuts. That makes it one of the elites in of the food universe. Albert Einstein had chocolate and Judas Iscariot did not.

[Aelswyth]

Ael, you've been the most helpful so far! That's great information, especially the whole "tisane" thing.

But, "Medicinal values" or "Medicines" I still don't think they should be consumed on a regular basis unless you need it... Such as your Red Raspberry leaf.

And, I still do like actual medicine, myself. Though I'm sure someone could tell me certain herbs/foods that could help my moods and such, I doubt they can reproduce the effect of my Lamotrigine.

I agree; as the Word of Wisdom says, these herbs should be used with prudence, not indiscriminately, because certainly some of them do contain powerful medicinal compounds.

And certainly there are modern medicines which are very valuable, if not indispensable in many cases. I am of the view, however, that pharmaceutical drugs should be used as a last resort, if they are found necessary after one has applied the natural remedies. No "hard drugs" should be taken lightly. Many people do find that natural substances are extremely beneficial to mood imbalances, but there are also many whose problems are too severe and who are better served by medications such as your Lamotrigine. If that works for you, more power to you! :)

[VisionOfLehi]

I don't like taking any pill, in general. That comes from 10 years of having pills swapped for whatever they cared to diagnose me with at the time... Usually the wrong thing, lol.

When I get a headache, I'd rather have something to eat or drink with a little caffeine than take a pill meant to have the same effect...

The concept of everyone knowing a little herbology and such is a good idea, but I'd still rather there be a few specialists to go to, then have everyone "self-diagnosing and treating." Your quote mentions an "herbalist." I'd rather see a certified herbalist than treat myself (for anything more than a headache or stomach ache)

Did you do all your study on your own? Aren't there certain fields that do studies like that? Dietitians study that at all?