Book of Mormon Reading Group: 11 Dec - 17 Dec 2023 (3 Nephi 14 - 4 Nephi 1)

[askandanswer]

Given that this book covered several hundred years I guess its possible that it could have been written by one of the 3 Nephites.

Verse 19 rules out this possibility. That verse mentions that the writer of this record died.

4 Nephi 1

THE BOOK OF NEPHIWHO IS THE SON OF NEPHI—ONE OF THE DISCIPLES OF JESUS CHRIST

 

In Alma 23 we get a pretty good listing of the lands where the gospel had reached. We don't get such a listing here.

4 Nephi 1:1

behold the disciples of Jesus had formed a church of Christ in all the lands round about.

 

This is a little more detail about how far the gospel had spread.

4 Nephi 1:2

the people were all converted unto the Lord, upon all the face of the land, both Nephites and Lamanites

 

Perhaps disputation was a bigger sin than pride amongst the Nephites. Christ warned them more about disputations than he did about pride. 

4 Nephi 1:2

 there were no contentions and disputations among them,

 

This sounds very much like the description of Zion as given in Moses 7:18. That city, based on the teaching by Enoch, was translated, but this group of people, based on the teaching of Christ, was not.

4 Nephi 1:3

And they had all things common among them; therefore there were not rich and poor, bond and free, but they were all made free, and partakers of the heavenly gift.

 

Today, such acts occur on an almost daily basis in hospitals all around the world with not the slightest sign of faith amongst the participants/beneficiaries. The methods are different but the outcomes are the same.

4 Nephi 1:5

And there were great and marvelous works wrought by the disciples of Jesus, insomuch that they did heal the sick, and raise the dead, and cause the lame to walk, and the blind to receive their sight, and the deaf to hear;

 

Prosperity without pride. At last they have learned how to deal with prosperity without it leading to sin.

4 Nephi 1:7

And the Lord did prosper them exceedingly in the land; yea, insomuch that they did build cities again where there had been cities burned.

 

I think it might have been more useful to leave it as a memorial to the consequences of sin in the same way as the ruins of a shrine in Hiroshima has been left untouched to remind people of the problems with war.

4 Nephi 1:8

Yea, even that great city Zarahemla did they cause to be built again.

 

When thinking about how quickly and frequently the pre-Christ Nephites returned to wickedness, after short periods of goodness, and the fact that Christ's commandment that they meet together oft to hear the word of the Lord appears to be a new commandment, perhaps a failure to meet on a regular basis contributed to their fast and frequent abandonment of righteousness.

4 Nephi 1:12

and in meeting together oft both to pray and to hear the word of the Lord.

 

All nine would have died well before the 100 year mark.

4 Nephi 1:14

yea, even an hundred years had passed away, and the disciples of Jesus, whom he had chosen, had all gone to the paradise of God,

 

There is no mention here of pride. Maybe they didn't see it as a problem? Did they have a blind spot when it came to that particular sin?

4 Nephi 1:16

And there were no envyings, nor strifes, nor tumults, nor whoredoms, nor lyings, nor murders, nor any manner of lasciviousness;

 

Unity, righteous, having all things in common and no sign of sin or social problems but no translation. Perhaps the degree of righteousness is not the only thing that is taken into account when deciding whether or not a city should be translated. 

4 Nephi 1:17

17 There were no robbers, nor murderers, neither were there Lamanites, nor any manner of -ites; but they were in one, the children of Christ, and heirs to the kingdom of God.

 

This would seem to conclusively rule out Nephi as one of the 3 Nephites although the timing is out. In verse 14 we read that a hundred years had passed and all the original disciples had gone to paradise, but then it is only in verse 19 that we read of the death of Nephi.

4 Nephi 1:19

And it came to pass that Nephi, he that kept this last record, (and he kept it upon the plates of Nephi) died

 

My guess is that this revulsion from the church may have been more a result of disputation than pride or some other sin. It's not until verse 24 that we get pride making a comeback.

4 Nephi 1:20

20 And he kept it eighty and four years, and there was still peace in the land, save it were a small part of the people who had revolted from the church

 

The timing is still unusual. A man who was old enough to be a disciple of Christ at the time He came had a son who was still alive 193 years after the coming of Christ?

4 Nephi 1:21

 And it came to pass that Amos died also, (and it was an hundred and ninety and four years from the coming of Christ)

 

Two generations in just 200 hundred years. I think today its about 25 years per generation.

4 Nephi 1:22

 And it came to pass that two hundred years had passed away; and the second generation had all passed away save it were a few

 

At the time of their greatest peace, righteousness, prosperity and happiness, Nephite society had a very flat social structure. It was a collective society. Perhaps such a flat structure is a consequence of righteous living. Such a conclusion might point to other possible conclusions about highly stratified societies.

4 Nephi 1:24

 And now, in this two hundred and first year there began to be among them those who were lifted up in pride, such as the wearing of costly apparel, and all manner of fine pearls, and of the fine things of the world.

 

This verse may give support to conclusions about the damaging effects of class on religion and what can happen when the focus of religious adherents shifts from the collective to the individual.

4 Nephi 1:26

And they began to be divided into classes; and they began to build up churches unto themselves to get gain, and began to deny the true church of Christ

 

If there were many churches which denied the more parts of His gospel then there is no way that that which they did administer was in any way sacred. It would have been just ordinary bread and water. not the sacrament.

4 Nephi 1:27

and did administer that which was sacred unto him to whom it had been forbidden because of unworthiness.

 

This is an interesting and unexplained shift from the "many churches" mentiond in the previous verse.

4 Nephi 1:28

And this church 

 

 

 

[zil2]

Just made tomorrow's thread (today's for @askandanswer):

 

[zil2]

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

Today, such acts occur on an almost daily basis in hospitals all around the world with not the slightest sign of faith amongst the participants/beneficiaries. The methods are different but the outcomes are the same.

As far as I know, there is no cure for blindness today, and even a cochlear implant isn't the same as a cure for being deaf.  Pretty sure what happens in hospitals pales compared to some of what Christ did.

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

This would seem to conclusively rule out Nephi as one of the 3 Nephites

Per the journal of Oliver Hunnington (Huntington? - not sure), which journal is in the Church archives, 16 Feb 1895 entry, the following were the names of the three disciples who were translated (this came from an Institute teacher and was spoken in class and seemed that many know it):

• Jeremiah
• Zedekiah
• Kumenonhi

4 hours ago, askandanswer said:

disputation than pride

Is not disputation simply one of the ways in which pride is made manifest?

[zil2]

3 Nephi 29

The Lord keeps his promises.  Be true to the Lord.  v7: Don't do things for "gain" - not for money, not for the respect of the folks in your Sunday School class, not to impress your companions with your "gospel knowledge", etc.  Do what you do because you love God and his truth and want to share it with others in all humility.

3 Nephi 30

Amen!   Come to Christ, repent, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, get adopted into the House of Israel.   We have cookies - at 7pm, in the cultural hall (aka: gym)!

4 Nephi 1

v15: Plead for the love of God to dwell in your heart.

v17: View yourself and those around you as children of God.  Let there be no manner of -ites in your heart, even if the world disagrees.

v24: Beware of the desire for costly clothes and jewelry.

v20, 26: Society may form themselves into -ites and classes, but you don't have to follow society.  You don't have to treat people differently just because society thinks people should be treated differently.

v31: When society seeks to kill the righteous only because their righteousness makes society look bad, then you know that society is close to destruction.  I would say we're one step away from this today (with so many on social media proposing murder as a means of dealing with people who resist wickedness).

v34: At least some of the time, the Lord expects us to humbly take such abuse. (I suppose we each have to figure out where the line is between long-suffering and righteous self-defense.)

v36-38: I wonder if they really divided on ancestral lines, or if they just used these names.  Or perhaps there was so much inter-marrying that everyone could claim whichever ancestral line they wanted...

Sad that large groups can't be content with peace and prosperity.  Don't be a large group - choose to live in peace, love your enemies, stay true to the Savior.

[laronius]

On 12/16/2023 at 9:54 AM, Jamie123 said:

28:6 - There is a long-running tradition John never died and is still somewhere alive today. But if this is true, it's odd that John  21:23 makes it very clear that Jesus did not promise this. Maybe the JST says something different?

One of the guys on YouTube that posts about the last days hypothesized that he will be one of the two prophets to be killed in Jerusalem after holding back the armies in Armageddon. That would seem to meet the criteria. He thought maybe Elijah was the other but was less convincing on that one.