Another example of incompetent American education.

[Fiannan]

Yeah, but sometimes the truth just isn't pretty and what that man is talking about is very ugly indeed.

-a-train

Absolutely correct -- maybe sometimes you have to have an R rating to expose the problems that deserve an R rating themselves.

PC, I can assure you that many schools have administrators who would hire someone who is a good coach, and can do an okay job teaching math rather than hire Albert Einstein if he were alive and applying for the same math job. I have heard from too many teachers that unless you teach special education or some other field that is short of teachers (fields such as biology, social studies or English have huge surpluses of teachers and most graduates in these fields have a really tough time getting work) then you should make sure you are good at footballl or basketball. Maybe if you don't trust me on the teacher surplus thing you can call your state educational certification department and ask how many actively certified teachers are in the state you live and how many employed teachers there are (of course this won't count those with certifications that are expired due to someone leaving the profession or not being able to find work).

[Fiannan]

I wonder how many students guilty of bullying get suspensions like this?

wltx.com | District: Students Doing "More Than Kissing"

[USNationalist]

Public schools are run by the government- how can you expect anything but failure from them? Schools take roll and receive money each day per kid in their seat. Thats why they hesitate so much to suspend a trouble maker, and expulsion is almost unheard of.

The bullies that get shot in schools have it coming. Its their fault for torturing someone to the point where they throw their life away for vengeance. It's the schools fault for never doing anything remotely effective to stop bullying. And it's the parents faults for letting their kids think it is acceptable to be jerkwads.

[PentiumInside]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just saw this show about cyber bullying on PBS. It was so sad. This man was talking about how his son killed himself after being bullied online, then later he found some site that talks about death, how to make a noose, etc. His dad wanted to know why he killed himself so he got on with his username and met the boy who encouraged him to go through with it. It made me sick to my stomach to see this story. The dad said his biggest mistake was letting his son have a computer in his room.

Natural selection IMO. Im sorry but if you get "bullied" ONLINE!!!!??!! Turn off the computer and go outside.

Oh heres the obligatory sympathy I have to express lest I be called heartless:

"Its a shame and I feel for the family. What a tragedy."

[pushka]

I was bullied physically and verbally at Junior school and Secondary school by one girl in particular. She was bigger than me, overweight, and aggresive to anyone she could scare. I once asked her why she picked on me and she said just because she could. I told over her at Junior school and she was told off for her behaviour, at Secondary school it was more difficult. For my 1st year there, my sister and her friends were still in their final school year, so they could keep an eye on me sometimes, when my sister said 'stop picking on my sister or I'll kill you' to the girl who'd been bullying me, she told the Head Teacher and my sister and myself were almost expelled for picking on that girl!! She always had a way of turning sweet when teachers were around.

Both my son and daughter have been bullied too..My daughter was bullied at her Junior school for most of the time..one year, when she was 7, she was very ill for most of the time, so she missed school on lots of occasions, when she was bullied on her return to school and I enquired about it, the supply teacher told me that kids easily forget who a pupil is if they are off school for 2/3 weeks at a time, and it was just Becki's own fault that she couldn't stop being bullied! In the end one of her teachers made the whole class state separately, in front of the whole class, the reason why they bullied Becki, and then they had to promise to befriend her more...I was in tears over Becki having to go thru this. At Secondary school the bullying continued and I was told that Becki was a typical 'victim', she was ill with severe asthma, had problems with her mobility due to a leg problem and she had ginger hair..the school said that she just had to toughen up. She is only now getting over the way she was treated, and wants to have a career in play therapy, in order to help other kids having problems.

My son started being bullied in his last year of Junior school and it continued for his 1st 3 years of Secondary school. Finally, this autumn, we had him moved from his existing Secondary school...a Catholic run school, to a state run school closer to home...the bullying has stopped and he is improving in his results there. He is happy each day when he returns home from this new school, and I can't believe the change in him.

It is unfortunate that schools, with Anti Bullying Policies in place still cannot properly deal with bullying which has become chronic. I do believe that parents need to be more proactive at contacting the parents of the bullies, but am also aware of the additional problems this can cause for the child being bullied. It is a sad reflection on society when the bullies get to remain in school, virtually unpunished, while the victims are made to move from school to school until the bullying one day ceases or until they commit suicide...tragic.

[Fiannan]

Public schools are run by the government- how can you expect anything but failure from them? Schools take roll and receive money each day per kid in their seat. Thats why they hesitate so much to suspend a trouble maker, and expulsion is almost unheard of.

The bullies that get shot in schools have it coming. Its their fault for torturing someone to the point where they throw their life away for vengeance. It's the schools fault for never doing anything remotely effective to stop bullying. And it's the parents faults for letting their kids think it is acceptable to be jerkwads.

At another forum I visit on occasion this topic came up a while ago. One of the more conservative members said he understood why some kids have to carry weapons to school and maybe there are times they have to terminate a bully. The phrase he used was it was better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

[prisonchaplain]

PC, I can assure you that many schools have administrators who would hire someone who is a good coach, and can do an okay job teaching math rather than hire Albert Einstein if he were alive and applying for the same math job. I have heard from too many teachers that unless you teach special education or some other field that is short of teachers (fields such as biology, social studies or English have huge surpluses of teachers and most graduates in these fields have a really tough time getting work) then you should make sure you are good at footballl or basketball. Maybe if you don't trust me on the teacher surplus thing you can call your state educational certification department and ask how many actively certified teachers are in the state you live and how many employed teachers there are (of course this won't count those with certifications that are expired due to someone leaving the profession or not being able to find work).

If that's your real issue, it might be worthy of another string. Your frustration that sports gets too much attention, and rigorous academics not enough is one that's been going on for many decades (same issues in my high school days). I doubt that blame rests soley or primarily with administrators. Also, I don't need Eistein to teach my 9th grader--I need a teacher who is solid in the basics of his/her field, and who enjoys teaching. Personally, if I were running the school, the fact that person A. has a doctrate in Quantum Physics, with a summa cum laude avg, and person B has a B.S. in Biology, with sufficient coursework in physics, chemistry, and general sciences...along with experience coaching sports--yeah I'd probably go for the 2nd person (it helps that s/he is cheaper, too).

But again, bottom-line: THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BULLYING!

[USNationalist]

At another forum I visit on occasion this topic came up a while ago. One of the more conservative members said he understood why some kids have to carry weapons to school and maybe there are times they have to terminate a bully. The phrase he used was it was better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

I am familure with that Saying My parents told that to the Canadian Govt when they found a gun in our vehicle while crossing the border.

But it is absurd to apply that to bullying. The kid picked on isn't generally in any kid of mortal danger.

Of course real threats of harm can be found in school- but I would say that goes beyond bullying.

[Fiannan]

I am familure with that Saying My parents told that to the Canadian Govt when they found a gun in our vehicle while crossing the border.

But it is absurd to apply that to bullying. The kid picked on isn't generally in any kid of mortal danger.

Of course real threats of harm can be found in school- but I would say that goes beyond bullying.

In most cases yes, but if a child is subjected to constant psychological harassment some will kill themselves. I am not saying everyone should go knock off a bully but this needs to get more attention. Also, the criminal justice system needs to be brought into this since assult and battery and harassment are criminal offenses and if someone won't stop then a bit of time at Juvie might help -- at the very least there is probably someone there bigger and meaner than them who might provide them some interesting experiences come shower time.

[USNationalist]

I think societies "anti-violence" trend is also a major contributor to the prevalence of jerkwads. People talk about "cyber bullies" and how they say what they want because they can get away with it. But reality is, the exact same thing is going on face to face because of how the law (and the threat of lawsuits) handcuffs individuals.

People learn from consequence, you take away the negative consequences for being a douche- and you encourage its growth.

[JohnBirchSociety]

Mom: Bullies drove boy to kill himself - CNN.com

While I am not sure about this specific case I have to say my general impression of American school administrators is very,very poor. Most seem to be washed up teachers /coaches who can't handle the classroom so they spend a couple of summers in school to get an administrator's license so they can be get out of teaching, but rule their little kingdoms.

Why do kids carry knives and guns to school? To protect themselves in most cases. And what do the kids do who are outsiders (who don't fit into the artificial and psychotic lifestyle of modern American education evolved from psychological theories better applied to correctional institutions than places of learning)? These kids suffer, commit suicide or go on rampages.

If only all parents with kids picked on in schools would carefully document the cases, document their appeals to the administrative morons, and then, if their kids continues to be picked on, bring lawsuits up against these schools you would see things change. The American education system has some excellent teachers, some pathetic administrators and is anything but well. The administrators across the USA will only take note when money is at stake -- and bad publicity since most admins are more concerned about good publicity (like having good write-ups in the sports page about their sports teams) than the welfare of the kids. It's time the US followed examples of countries like Britain and Sweden and take action against bullies -- and admins who ignore the problem as well.

ACTUALLY it is time America STOP being in any manner like the British / Swede model of education.

Public Education (stealing a persons labor to finance the education of another through the force of government) is a central tenet of Marxist Communism, and needs to be abolished.

The Public Education industry in the US is the largest (by leaps and bounds) industry in the US (In fact, in the world). It is by all considerations, the largest monopoly ever devised. It will NEVER effectively work, NEVER.

What America needs is a return to local run, and locally financed, education.

Put it simply! It is wrong for me to take your labor (money) by force, and give it to another (no matter the pretense). It is wrong for ten of us to do it. It is wrong for 300 million of us to do it. It is theft. Just because the government sanctions the activity does not make it right.

It will NEVER work.

[prisonchaplain]

What America needs is a return to local run, and locally financed, education.

Put it simply! It is wrong for me to take your labor (money) by force, and give it to another (no matter the pretense). It is wrong for ten of us to do it. It is wrong for 300 million of us to do it. It is theft. Just because the government sanctions the activity does not make it right.

It will NEVER work.

Your view appears inconsistent. Schools are currently run by districts, with a modicum of direction and funding from the states, and a very slight input from the feds. Your main argument is not against state or federal control of public schools, but against public schools themselves. In other words, if I read you correctly, you would not support public schools even if they were 100% controlled and funded by local districts.

If so...why the talk about local control? You are really arguing for near anarchy.

[JohnBirchSociety]

Your view appears inconsistent. Schools are currently run by districts, with a modicum of direction and funding from the states, and a very slight input from the feds. Your main argument is not against state or federal control of public schools, but against public schools themselves. In other words, if I read you correctly, you would not support public schools even if they were 100% controlled and funded by local districts.

If so...why the talk about local control? You are really arguing for near anarchy.

I'm talking about local control of education, but not government force. In other words, when government forces me (or you) to give of our labor to support the education of another, that is theft.

Local control would mean VOLUNTARY, local associations that determine, of themselves, the means of education. You would be free to associate with them or not. There would be no compulsory education. This would involve private, free market, competition, not government sanctioned monopolies.

Thanks for the reply, I should have been clearer on the "local control" definition!

By the way, I am a strict (some would say fanatical, but I don't care) Constitution follower on both the Federal and States level. If it ain't in there, it ought not be done by Government. No exceptions.

[prisonchaplain]

JBS, I think I get it. But, the voluntary associations you speak of already exist. They're called private schools. It justs clearer to me for your to directly and simply call for the abolishment of public education as an illegal government endeavor.

I don't agree with your assessment, but I understand the logic of it. Further, if you succeed, I probably could afford to put my children in private Christian school. With our current tax structure, I can't.

[JohnBirchSociety]

JBS, I think I get it. But, the voluntary associations you speak of already exist. They're called private schools. It justs clearer to me for your to directly and simply call for the abolishment of public education as an illegal government endeavor.

I don't agree with your assessment, but I understand the logic of it. Further, if you succeed, I probably could afford to put my children in private Christian school. With our current tax structure, I can't.

There are no "private" schools. The "private" schools must adhere to the rules that the government mandates, making them extremely expensive, and unable to reasonably compete with the public alternative.

"Private" schools are for those that are quite well off (it would cost me about $15,000 a year for my kids).

Take away the government from the picture (yes, publicly sanctioned schools should be abolished), and you are right, you would be able to afford "private" schooling.

I think you might agree, that at least at the federal level, the government has no Constitutional enumerative authority to have involvement in public "education" other than in the promotion of art and science through copyright and patent (Article I; Section 8; Clause 8).

And I think you might come to agree that publicly mandated education is a tenet of Marxist Communism that was not found in the US prior to the Boston Experiment in the 1800's in any grand scope.

You might find of interest a good book "NEA, Trojan Horse of American Education". And of course, "The Communist Manifesto" which speaks very highly of public "education".

By the way, on the subject of voluntary associations, there are very few remaining in the open. I'm quite amazed that the Master's Golf Tournament hasn't been shut down by the Fed's. And it is a real miracle that the Boy Scout's are still under Congressional Charter at the national level.

[Fiannan]

There are no "private" schools. The "private" schools must adhere to the rules that the government mandates, making them extremely expensive, and unable to reasonably compete with the public alternative.

"Private" schools are for those that are quite well off (it would cost me about $15,000 a year for my kids).

Take away the government from the picture (yes, publicly sanctioned schools should be abolished), and you are right, you would be able to afford "private" schooling.

I think you might agree, that at least at the federal level, the government has no Constitutional enumerative authority to have involvement in public "education" other than in the promotion of art and science through copyright and patent (Article I; Section 8; Clause 8).

And I think you might come to agree that publicly mandated education is a tenet of Marxist Communism that was not found in the US prior to the Boston Experiment in the 1800's in any grand scope.

You might find of interest a good book "NEA, Trojan Horse of American Education". And of course, "The Communist Manifesto" which speaks very highly of public "education".

By the way, on the subject of voluntary associations, there are very few remaining in the open. I'm quite amazed that the Master's Golf Tournament hasn't been shut down by the Fed's. And it is a real miracle that the Boy Scout's are still under Congressional Charter at the national level.

While I have some mixed feelings on this I have to give JBS one thing -- the school system of the USA tries to at best be neutral on God and at worse is antagonistic towards Him. Isn't there a scripture in the BofM that says that if an entity doesn't testify of the devine nature of Christ then it is of the Devil?

In a strange sort of way then the school systems of the Muslim world are in accordance to the word of God (they at least testify of Jesus as a major prophet, born of a virgin and returning someday to slay the anti-Christ) while the USA's new system is of Satan, in a strict analysis of what the BofM says.

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

[USNationalist]

The only way to get the government to make something work- is to not let them have anything to do with it. I am for the abolishment of the public school system. The Government can give vouchers to parents so they can choose what private school to enroll their children in.

[pushka]

I'm amazed at the comments that public school should be abolished, whether the posters meant just in the US or in the UK too!

Private, voluntary attendance at school would throw the general population back a couple of centuries...perhaps the wealthy are not concerned whether those less wealthy can afford private (voluntary funded) schooling for their children...

[Moksha]

I'm amazed at the comments that public school should be abolished, whether the posters meant just in the US or in the UK too!

Private, voluntary attendance at school would throw the general population back a couple of centuries...perhaps the wealthy are not concerned whether those less wealthy can afford private (voluntary funded) schooling for their children...

Perhaps this is an example of conservatism run amok. When left to their own devices, you can see that they would like to return the state of civilization back to a time of feudalism via educating only the wealthy. However the people will not embrace any Dukes of Birchism.

[JohnBirchSociety]

I'm amazed at the comments that public school should be abolished, whether the posters meant just in the US or in the UK too!

Private, voluntary attendance at school would throw the general population back a couple of centuries...perhaps the wealthy are not concerned whether those less wealthy can afford private (voluntary funded) schooling for their children...

History doesn't agree with your point.

The United States became the most prosperous and powerful and educated nation in all of human history through private, non-governmental, voluntary attendance in schools.

Though I don't place the blame of our continued downfall solely in the hands of public "education" it is pretty darn clear that it has failed. And it has failed, not because we don't spend enough, or because parents don't care. It has failed because it is a government mandated monopoly that has, as it root, Marxist Communist principle.

From 1776 until the early 1900's there were, for the most part, no government run primary education schools. During that time, we had the highest educated, most prosperous people the world had ever seen.

In fact, we became so astoundingly prosperous that even now, many decades after we abandoned liberty in exchange for public "education", we remain the most prosperous people in human history.

It is emblematic of the problem that, unfortunately, you seem (and I mean no offense on this), to not know American history, and what it was that made us great.

[USNationalist]

Pushka and Moshka-

I am not sure how you came to those conclusions. As far as what I said- the Goverment still pays for education- through the form of vouchers. And there is no reason to abolish laws that say kids must receive an education. My way simply allows the parents of each child to have more say in what their child is taught, and how they are taught it. School will be competing against each other to get parents to choose to send their kids to their school- so you can expect each school to improve its performance over the public school system- in every single way.

[JohnBirchSociety]

Perhaps this is an example of conservatism run amok. When left to their own devices, you can see that they would like to return the state of civilization back to a time of feudalism via educating only the wealthy. However the people will not embrace any Dukes of Birchism.

We became the most prosperous people in all of human history without government mandated public "education". That is a fact of history.

I would like to see, to put it simply, "Less Government, More Responsibility, and with God's help, a better world"...

It is nonsense to say that opposition to communistic / socialistic principles will propel us to the feudal era.

I support, on the Federal level, the Constitution. Nothing more, nothing less.

I stand against the taking of a person's labor (no matter the pretense), by force, and giving it to another (no matter the pretense). When such things happen, it is theft, whether government sanctioned or not.

Thou shalt not steal, comes to mind.

[JohnBirchSociety]

Pushka and Moshka-

I am not sure how you came to those conclusions. As far as what I said- the Goverment still pays for education- through the form of vouchers. And there is no reason to abolish laws that say kids must receive an education. My way simply allows the parents of each child to have more say in what their child is taught, and how they are taught it. School will be competing against each other to get parents to choose to send their kids to their school- so you can expect each school to improve its performance over the public school system- in every single way.

I can support this on the State level. No Federal involvement, and I'm fine.

[john doe]

Birch and Nationalist:

Just so you two know, Pushka is from the UK, and therefore it would be silly to expect her to know more than a passing knowledge of US history.

I think you have made some decent points, however it should be noted that a major difference between 1900 and now is that today many parents themselves fail to see the need for their own involvement in the education of their children. A large measure of the reasons why public schools fail is because parents think that their responsibility to their childrens' educational process ends when their child leaves the house in the morning. And heaven forbid if the school ever touches a hair on the head of their sweet little snowflake to discipline them since the parent never taught their kid how to behave.

Also, in my opinion, homeschooling is not the answer. Yes, it worked in the 19th century, but parents today do their children a disservice when they keep them away from other children in their educational process. Plus, it is extremely difficult for a parent to be able to teach their child to be proficient in as many subjects as they can get in most schools. Private schooling, with parents demanding that teachers actually teach, can be effective, but it is generally too expensive for most middle-class Americans to afford. Even with the recent voucher push that was made in Utah, I still would not have changed my kids' schools if it had passed. It still would have been too expensive for me to have paid the difference, and I make a little more than the average Utahn.

I don't have the answers to the problems, but they are not as easy as some people make it out to be.

[Elphaba]

In a strange sort of way then the school systems of the Muslim world are in accordance to the word of God (they at least testify of Jesus as a major prophet, born of a virgin and returning someday to slay the anti-Christ) while the USA's new system is of Satan, in a strict analysis of what the BofM says.

How is the US's school system of Satan?

Elphaba