Heavenly Parents

[mikbone]

6 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I don't mean to imply that we become merely (spiritual) baby-making machines for the "higher-ups". I think all the Elohim are very involved in the progress of their family. I think our concept of family ( ie... MY family and YOUR family) may need to be reframed as OUR family and OUR children- a unity we can't quite comprehend now.

I understand your argument.

I just don’t like it.

It has irritated me since I started researching the topic 30+ years ago.

My current understanding is more intimate and would require much more learning and work.

I think that we are capable and have the seeds of divinity within us.   

Every ordinance that we partake suggests such.

 

[ZealoulyStriving]

6 minutes ago, mikbone said:

I think that we are capable and have the seeds of divinity within us.   

Every ordinance that we partake suggests such

I agree. Nothing in my thought process takes away from that (I don't think 🤔)

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Traveler said:

I wanted to go into another problem that can be very difficult to deal with.  In part, I think our poster @CV75 deals with the core of this problem with the statement:

"The fundamental principles of our religion is the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, “that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended up into heaven;” and all other things are only appendages to these, which pertain to our religion."

The statement itself is not the problem as much as what individuals interpret and think this means.  Before diving deep into describing what I think will turn out to be an excellent can of worms, I need to make clear an observation and opinion that I have.  This concerns the Proclamation on the Family and the importance of traditional families to stability and sustainability of societies – not just here in mortality but in eternity also.   Without fathers and mothers loving and merciful towards each other and their children as a predominant principle defining a society – all other societies (anything else) are unstable, unstainable, corrupt and unjust.

Now I will attempt to highlight the problem with one word – sex.  Not just as a reference of gender but as a core principle of marriage and family.  Perhaps I am wrong and misinterpreting trends within religion but there seems to be a reluctance within many religious circles to openly acknowledge the importance of sex in relationship to the salvation of mankind.  What part does the doctrines of sex have to do with the above quote concerning Jesus Christ and the atonement?  Answer: - In essence – I believe it is the means of creation of life, the foundation of family and the reason for the Law of Chasity.   It is why there is gender and the reason that male and female are created in the image and likeness of G-d.

Because we believe in a mother and father in heaven, I have had discussions with many religious people that are concerned that sexual relationships would take place in eternity.  That G-d would so act or that Jesus would marry is not believed in any way to define G-d or within the nature of G-d.  That no one in heaven is married or involved in sex.  But why would I believe that it is marriage?  (Note - that marriage must occur here in mortality and be sealed here by the same power given to Peter to seal on earth that which will be sealed in heaven.  Because there is no initiation of marriage that takes place in heaven – it must be done here.)  We are starting to see why marriage is necessary and an attribute of G-d, unfolding in these Last days.  We are seeing why the Proclamation of the Family was prophetic and given by prophecy directly for our time.  The columniation of the LGBTQ+ movement is reaching its pinnacle and purpose with the explanation of what the LGBTQ+ movements calls non-binary.   Non-binary for LGBTQ+ is the transcendence to the divine.  Because it is so widely believed that G-d the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ are the divine expression of non-binary.  The logical and inevitable result of no marriage between a husband and wife, father and mother defining family is a non-binary society as defined by the LGBTQ+ movement.  Satan has taken the arguments against the Saints and turned it against our critics in ways our critics did not foresee nor understand.   The notion that we worship a different Jesus (G-d) is not a claim we initiated.

Many times, I have been told that eternal marriage is not necessary nor in any way defines divine society.  Now we can see, not only why the doctrine of family is true but why it is necessary to go against what is the traditional doctrine of our other Christian cousins.  G-d created us to be binary in the image and likeness of G-d and the binary he has created is male and female.  This binary is the way and means by which every person is born and able to be obedient to the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth (sex).

There is one other thing I believe.  We all have our agency and if some guy wants to identify as something other than that guy created by G-d or some girl that wants to identify as something else – that is their choice.  I believe G-d still loves them and so I will try to love them too, but they will never be a part of the glory of G-d or have increase.

 

The Traveler

I think sex is implicit in "the restoration of the house of Israel" phrase of the second sentence in Joseph Smith's quote. When he says, "But in connection with with these..." he is referring to the fundamental principles, not the appendages. The restoration of the house of Israel requires the combined exercise of keys (by Moses, Elias, and Elijah; the gathering of Israel, the Abrahamic covenant, and Elijah's sealing power -- D&C 110), authorizing marriage and procreation in time and in eternity. There is no legitimate Israel with no legitimate sex, and there is no legitimate sex with no legitimate marriage.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

I don't mean to imply that we become merely (spiritual) baby-making machines for the "higher-ups". I think all the Elohim are very involved in the progress of their family. I think our concept of family ( ie... MY family and YOUR family) may need to be reframed as OUR family and OUR children- a unity we can't quite comprehend now.

We seal men and women; their children are born in the covenant; this chain of progress continues back to Adam. We are cousins to ancestors along the way, but not sealed to them (siblings are not sealed to each other, either), but each individual is also sealed to Christ.

At what point (and why) is a spirit child of exalted parents adopted or re-sealed to a broader, or other, set of gods? Do some exalted parents not have a firstborn, a son of the morning or an only begotten? At what point is their work and glory picked up by someone else, or at what point do they pick up someone else's?

Edited May 27, 2024 by CV75

[ZealoulyStriving]

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We seal men and women; their children are born in the covenant; this chain of progress continues back to Adam. We are cousins to ancestors along the way, but not sealed to them (siblings are not sealed to each other, either), but each individual is also sealed to Christ.

Eventually we ARE all sealed to one another as a family- Adam being our common progenitor

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

At what point (and why) is a spirit child of exalted parents adopted or re-sealed to a broader, or other, set of gods?

On their earth during the probationary cycle. They are sealed to their Savior, and to the Eternal Family.

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Do some exalted parents not have a firstborn, a son of the morning or an only begotten?

My idea is that Saviors only comes through a specific lineage to which the spirit children of His Father's fellows are adopted/sealed to in their mortal probations.

21 minutes ago, CV75 said:

At what point is their work and glory picked up by someone else, or at what point do they pick up someone else's?

It is a cooperative effort to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of our children.

* This is hard to explain over the computer.

Edited May 27, 2024 by ZealoulyStriving

[mikbone]

45 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

It is a cooperative effort to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of our children.

 

It takes a village?

[ZealoulyStriving]

6 minutes ago, mikbone said:

It takes a village?

Not a Hillary village  😁

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Eventually we ARE all sealed to one another as a family- Adam being our common progenitor

On their earth during the probationary cycle. They are sealed to their Savior, and to the Eternal Family.

My idea is that Saviors only comes through a specific lineage to which the spirit children of His Father's fellows are adopted/sealed to in their mortal probations.

It is a cooperative effort to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of our children.

* This is hard to explain over the computer.

The parent-to-child sealings do not produce a child-to-child sealings. They produce family units, but the only units producing generations are man-wife and parent-child, beginning with Adam and Eve. The children are sealed to their parents, spouses and Christ, but not to each other. The sealed descendants (children, posterity) of Adam and Eve are not sealed to each other until marriage, and only as couples. Are you suggesting that every person is sealed as a couple to every other person of the opposite sex?

Are you suggesting that a spirit child is not born in the covenant of their exalted parents?

There are many saviors on Mount Zion and joint-heirs with Christ. By grace I am as much a Savior as He is, and as much a Father as His Father is.

How is the priesthood order a cooperative, and not a covenant or sealed order?

[ZealoulyStriving]

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The parent-to-child sealings do not produce a child-to-child sealings. They produce family units, but the only units producing generations are man-wife and parent-child, beginning with Adam and Eve. The children are sealed to their parents, spouses and Christ, but not to each other. The sealed descendants (children, posterity) of Adam and Eve are not sealed to each other until marriage, and only as couples. Are you suggesting that every person is sealed as a couple to every other person of the opposite sex?

No...?

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Are you suggesting that a spirit child is not born in the covenant of their exalted parents?

There is something important about the mortal probation as it relates to covenant. Perhaps be born/organized as a spirit by Celestial parents is the what allows you to enter into higher covenants? Remember we don't start at the top- we work out way up through covenants.

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

There are many saviors on Mount Zion and joint-heirs with Christ. By grace I am as much a Savior as He is, and as much a Father as His Father is.

Perhaps, but you, as a savior, will you ever go to an earth and perform an Atonement? No. Thus, even leaving my theory behind, there is something fundamentally different between a Savior and saviors.

14 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How is the priesthood order a cooperative, and not a covenant or sealed order?

Consecration. United Order. Zion.

Edited May 27, 2024 by ZealoulyStriving

[CV75]

1 hour ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

No...?

There is something important about the mortal probation as it relates to covenant. Perhaps be born/organized as a spirit by Celestial parents is the what allows you to enter into higher covenants? Remember we don't start at the top- we work out way up through covenants.

Perhaps, but you, as a savior, will you ever go to an earth and perform an Atonement? No. Thus, even leaving my theory behind, there is something fundamentally different between a Savior and saviors.

Consecration. United Order. Zion.

I don't understand the "No...?" response -- are you suggesting "Maybe?" -- if so, that kind of ties up that line of discussion.

Do you consider a spirit child born of exalted parents to be born in a covenant, similar to a mortal child born in the covenant through mortal parents?

Focusing on your theory, what is the significance of exalted beings with a white stone (D&C 13);9 - 11) not having performed a Atonement in mortality, versus The One that has?

Consecration and the united order in its various forms are/were priesthood covenants within the priesthood order, not a good-will or other secular cooperatives.

What kinds of exalted activities are voluntary and cooperative versus voluntary and covenantal?

[mikbone]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

There are many saviors on Mount Zion and joint-heirs with Christ. By grace I am as much a Savior as He is, and as much a Father as His Father is.

Not quite.

Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ we cannot assist and we are damned..

Everything depends on this solitary act.

And it appears that even if God the Father had performed an atonement previously, it did not have the power to save us.  We required a new Savior that we covenanted with prior to his execution. 

Matt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt

Edited May 27, 2024 by mikbone

[CV75]

1 hour ago, mikbone said:

Not quite.

Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ we cannot assist and we are damned..

Everything depends on this solitary act.

And it appears that even if God the Father had performed an atonement previously, it did not have the power to save us.  We required a new Savior that we covenanted with prior to his execution. 

Matt 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.

Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt

As usual, it depends -- in some ways yes, and in some ways no. In the sense of who becomes exalted, it would be a yes, we are saviors. The theory @ZealoulyStrivingproposes calls for parents of spirit children being exalted (I think).

[ZealoulyStriving]

44 minutes ago, CV75 said:

As usual, it depends -- in some ways yes, and in some ways no. In the sense of who becomes exalted, it would be a yes, we are saviors. The theory @ZealoulyStrivingproposes calls for parents of spirit children being exalted (I think).

Yes, only exalted beings can create/organize/?? spirit children.

[CV75]

49 minutes ago, ZealoulyStriving said:

Yes, only exalted beings can create/organize/?? spirit children.

Good, and these exalted beings were saviors. They have a white stone "whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known." This higher order would be the kingdom of their Heavenly Father, who knows how to bring forth, gather and raise* spirit children including a Savior. A Heavenly Father who Himself was once a savior and maybe even a Savior, but still to whom our Savior in His Atonement deferred. To me this suggests that His Father, whether a savior or Savior, comprehends the heights and depths of joy and suffering that our saviors do and our Savior did to an infinitely greater extent than we, and did for our Savior that which the Savior could not do for Himself. All exalted beings end up knowing and comprehending all things, no matter how they got there; whether they were saviors or a Savior. All become Fathers. Or Mothers.

*These are reflected in the three keys restored to the earth in D&C 110.

Edited May 27, 2024 by CV75

[ZealoulyStriving]

48 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Good, and these exalted beings were saviors. They have a white stone "whereby things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms will be made known." This higher order would be the kingdom of their Heavenly Father, who knows how to bring forth, gather and raise* spirit children including a Savior. A Heavenly Father who Himself was once a savior and maybe even a Savior, but still to whom our Savior in His Atonement deferred. To me this suggests that His Father, whether a savior or Savior, comprehends the heights and depths of joy and suffering that our saviors do and our Savior did to an infinitely greater extent than we, and did for our Savior that which the Savior could not do for Himself. All exalted beings end up knowing and comprehending all things, no matter how they got there; whether they were saviors or a Savior. All become Fathers. Or Mothers.

*These are reflected in the three keys restored to the earth in D&C 110.

I haven't said any different. Like I said- this medium isn't ideal to convey my pondering.