The Great And Abominable Church

[Traveler]

To begin the title itself offers interesting insight. Anciently the term “Great” meant large size or of majority numbers. The term great implies that such an institution is unrivaled or in other words the Great and Abominable Church is the church, religion, doctrine and ways of the world.

The next part of the name is “Abominable”. Anciently this term had only one meaning - something that is used to replace the true and living G-d. This is no idle evil or simple misunderstanding of things but a deliberate replacement of G-d - his way of life including commandments and covenants with something else.

Some indication of the Great and Abominable Church:

1. The G & A B makes war on anyone that commits to live as Jesus taught. (Rev 12:17)

2. Described as the great whore that sitteth upon many waters (Rev 17:1) - Besides the symbol of the women involved it also meant the people are the majority throughout the world and they cater to pleasures.

3. Has been around a long time - was the dominant power of intellectual thinking at the time of Jesus as well as in our day. Also had the power to alter sacred scripture and keep everyone for many generations from obtaining the scriptures in their pure form. (1Nephi 13:32). Note that the reason for this corruption of scripture was to cause contention among would be believers and cause them to stumble over doctrine. Has it worked?

4. Has power to infiltrate any and all religious institutions that do not align themselves with the standards of the church of G-d and his saints. (1Nephi 14:10). This is a rather critical notion - Those that wish to take a stand against good moral people based on doctrine, do so at a terrible price.

5. Encourages and fosters the rejection of G-d and a moral family lifestyle. (D&C 88:94)

Paul describes the society of the G & A C or those involved in it practices in the “Last Days” in a most interesting manner in 2 Timothy 3:1-8. Lets review some of the concepts - from verse 2 of the King James version “For men shall be lovers of their own selves,”. The original Greek can also be read as: “For men shall be lovers of their own kind”. Interesting alternate translation - don’t you think? Then from verse 3: “Without natural affection”. The Greek is quite clear that this refers to sexual perversions with the additional description of “incontinent” which means without restraint of reproductive urges by exercising such desires in “unnatural ways”. The word translated to fierce is in reference to wild or untamed animal (not enlightened human) behavior. Can there be a better description of pornography and those caught in its addictions? Then in verse 4 “lovers of pleasures more than lovers of G-d”. Paul hits on this theme so much one would think Paul could be talking about addictions to behavior not likely fostered in loving families with Christian values. In verse 5 Paul says something very astonishing - “Having a form of g-dliness; but denying the power thereof.” In other words there will be an effort to make the life style to be considered as social viable as a marriage prescribed by G-d. This will be done by asserting that G-d does not have the right to prescribe what is “right” and “wrong”.

The Traveler

[Guest Starsky]

Woe! Hey Traveler, I believe you have hit the nail on the head with this one....Thanks for this great information.

[Jason]

Looks like Traveler's been reading H. Verlan Anderson's books...

[Guest Starsky]

Greek is Greek no matter who reads it....

[Tr2]

What point are you trying to make?

[Guest Starsky]

I thought it was obvious.

[Rodney]

Originally posted by Starsky@May 31 2004, 09:58 AM

I thought it was obvious.

Apparently, more obvious than the point I was making with my Abominable Snowman post, which was conveniently transferred to oblivion.

[Tr2]

I thought it was obvious.

Nope. There are a lot of thoughts, but I don't see how they come together.

Is that supposed to suggest that the great and abominable church is the world?

What point are you trying to make?

[Guest Chell]

Tr, that is what I understand it to mean. The world=great and abominable.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Traveler@May 28 2004, 09:24 PM

To begin the title itself offers interesting insight. Anciently the term “Great” meant large size or of majority numbers. The term great implies that such an institution is unrivaled or in other words the Great and Abominable Church is the church, religion, doctrine and ways of the world.

The next part of the name is “Abominable”. Anciently this term had only one meaning - something that is used to replace the true and living G-d. This is no idle evil or simple misunderstanding of things but a deliberate replacement of G-d - his way of life including commandments and covenants with something else.

Some indication of the Great and Abominable Church:

1. The G & A B makes war on anyone that commits to live as Jesus taught. (Rev 12:17)

2. Described as the great whore that sitteth upon many waters (Rev 17:1) - Besides the symbol of the women involved it also meant the people are the majority throughout the world and they cater to pleasures.

3. Has been around a long time - was the dominant power of intellectual thinking at the time of Jesus as well as in our day. Also had the power to alter sacred scripture and keep everyone for many generations from obtaining the scriptures in their pure form. (1Nephi 13:32). Note that the reason for this corruption of scripture was to cause contention among would be believers and cause them to stumble over doctrine. Has it worked?

4. Has power to infiltrate any and all religious institutions that do not align themselves with the standards of the church of G-d and his saints. (1Nephi 14:10). This is a rather critical notion - Those that wish to take a stand against good moral people based on doctrine, do so at a terrible price.

5. Encourages and fosters the rejection of G-d and a moral family lifestyle. (D&C 88:94)

Paul describes the society of the G & A C or those involved in it practices in the “Last Days” in a most interesting manner in 2 Timothy 3:1-8. Lets review some of the concepts - from verse 2 of the King James version “For men shall be lovers of their own selves,”. The original Greek can also be read as: “For men shall be lovers of their own kind”. Interesting alternate translation - don’t you think? Then from verse 3: “Without natural affection”. The Greek is quite clear that this refers to sexual perversions with the additional description of “incontinent” which means without restraint of reproductive urges by exercising such desires in “unnatural ways”. The word translated to fierce is in reference to wild or untamed animal (not enlightened human) behavior. Can there be a better description of pornography and those caught in its addictions? Then in verse 4 “lovers of pleasures more than lovers of G-d”. Paul hits on this theme so much one would think Paul could be talking about addictions to behavior not likely fostered in loving families with Christian values. In verse 5 Paul says something very astonishing - “Having a form of g-dliness; but denying the power thereof.” In other words there will be an effort to make the life style to be considered as social viable as a marriage prescribed by G-d. This will be done by asserting that G-d does not have the right to prescribe what is “right” and “wrong”.

The Traveler

Boy do we interpret these scriptures differently.

A couple of questions (mostly related to your point #3.)

How do you know that the G&A church has been around a long time, and in fact was the dominant power of intellectual thinking at the time of Jesus?

How can you read those scriptures and not see the correlation between the G&A church, and an actual church of today? It is so very obvious to me.

[Tr2]

Tr, that is what I understand it to mean. The world=great and abominable.

Ok, I think I've figured this out. I just had to completely ignore one of the words in that phrase, "church".

The world is not a church and cannot even remotely be compared to one. A church is a group of people that have a specific religious affliction. The last time I checked, the world was anything but a church.

How do you spend so much time thinking about one portion of a phrase and completely ignore the other? I guess that's why I couldn't understand what Taveler was talking about.

[Guest curvette]

Originally posted by Tr2@May 31 2004, 08:37 AM

What point are you trying to make?

I think one of the points he is trying to make is that homosexuals are part of the great and abominable church. He is so incredibly hung up on homosexuality.

[Guest Starsky]

I believe that there are only two churches:

1 Ne. 14: 10

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

I don't believe the G&B church is a single denomination or many.....I believe it is those who reject Christ and righteousness...the world.

I also believe that it is those who profess to believe in Christ, but who do not live a life that reflects Christ ...

[Jenda]

I believe that the descriptions of the G&A church fits, to a "T", a church of today. It does everything that Traveler outlined in his description except for part of #3 and part of #5. And I am not sure where he got the part of #3 that is in question, that is why I asked him.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jenda@May 31 2004, 10:33 PM

I believe that the descriptions of the G&A church fits, to a "T", a church of today. It does everything that Traveler outlined in his description except for part of #3 and part of #5. And I am not sure where he got the part of #3 that is in question, that is why I asked him.

Which church of today do you believe is the G&A church Jenda?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Starsky+May 31 2004, 10:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ May 31 2004, 10:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@May 31 2004, 10:33 PM

I believe that the descriptions of the G&A church fits, to a "T", a church of today.  It does everything that Traveler outlined in his description except for part of #3 and part of #5.  And I am not sure where he got the part of #3 that is in question, that is why I asked him.

Which church of today do you believe is the G&A church Jenda?

The Catholic Church.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jenda+May 31 2004, 10:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ May 31 2004, 10:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Starsky@May 31 2004, 10:35 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@May 31 2004, 10:33 PM

I believe that the descriptions of the G&A church fits, to a "T", a church of today.  It does everything that Traveler outlined in his description except for part of #3 and part of #5.  And I am not sure where he got the part of #3 that is in question, that is why I asked him.

Which church of today do you believe is the G&A church Jenda?

The Catholic Church.

Hmmm...interesting. I thought the same thing when I was on my mission in France where the Catholic church had caused so much pain.

[Jason]

Jenda and Starsky,

Shame on you.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 31 2004, 11:31 PM

Jenda and Starsky,

Shame on you.

OH SORRY Jason! :) I forgot that was your church.

[Lindy]

1 Ne. 14: 10

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

One of my favorite verses.....

"Church of the Lamb of God" or the "church of the devil"

Simple choice really

either you believe, or you don't.

Sad that so many members of the church of "the Lamb", turn their backs on one another because of petty differences in beliefs, or they can't stand each other and fight and kill each other in the name of God.

Those in the church of the devil just sit back and laugh....knowing that their membership will increase daily.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@May 31 2004, 11:31 PM

Jenda and Starsky,

Shame on you.  

Jason, I'm sorry that that is my belief and that it hurts you. I have studied a lot of things about the Catholic church and find many things that went on in God's name (and still does) through the church is wrong.

That does not mean that the people in the church are wrong. There are many wonderful, God-fearing people in the Catholic church. That does not change the nature of the church, though.

And there are many people in my church (which I consider the true church) who are not wonderful or God-fearing.

There is a little scripture that states that at the end of time, when darkness shall sweep the land and the vengeance of the Lord comes, it will start in His own house. So, it is not like my church stands in a better spot than your church.

D&C 105:9-11b RLDS (112:23-26 LDS)

9a Verily, verily I say unto you, Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

9b Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth--a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation--and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

10a And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.

10b First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

[Jason]

Jenda and Starsky,

Okay, rather than jump your cases about this, why don't we make this an academic exercise, okay?

1. Which Catholic Church do you believe is the G&A?

A. Roman

B. Orthodox

C. Old

D. Autocephalous

E. Nationalistic

F. "c"atholic

2. Then tell me why you believe that that specific Church is the Great and Abominable Church. (Specific Scriptural passages and Theological Scholar references only please.)

Thanks.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 1 2004, 11:04 AM

Jenda and Starsky,

Okay, rather than jump your cases about this, why don't we make this an academic exercise, okay? 

1.  Which Catholic Church do you believe is the G&A?

    A. Roman

    B. Orthodox

    C. Old

    D. Autocephalous

    E. Nationalistic

    F. "c"atholic

2.  Then tell me why you believe that that specific Church is the Great and Abominable Church.  (Specific Scriptural passages and Theological Scholar references only please.)

Thanks.

So in other words, you want me to prove, via Catholic documents, that it is the G&A church, and you are eliminating historical documents? That is an interesting approach, since a lot of the theological stance is based on the historical actions and philosophies of the church. The basis of the Crucades, the basis of how the cross came into vogue as a symbol of Christianity, the basis of some of the priesthood orders, etc., all contribute to this understanding.

Sorry, count me out. Unless you can prove through LDS scripture and all the prophets teachings that the LDS and/or the RLDS is not the true church.

Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about this? You don't believe in the restored scriptures, and the G&A church is only mentioned in the BoM. So why be concerned?

[Jason]

"So in other words, you want me to prove, via Catholic documents, that it is the G&A church, and you are eliminating historical documents? That is an interesting approach, since a lot of the theological stance is based on the historical actions and philosophies of the church."

No. Go right ahead. Im just saying be scholarly.

"The basis of the Crucades, the basis of how the cross came into vogue as a symbol of Christianity, the basis of some of the priesthood orders, etc., all contribute to this understanding."

Fine. Let's chat.

"Sorry, count me out. Unless you can prove through LDS scripture and all the prophets teachings that the LDS and/or the RLDS is not the true church."

What if I could prove from the Book of Mormon that the LDS/RLDS church is the great and abominable church of the devil? Would that peak your interest?

"Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about this? You don't believe in the restored scriptures, and the G&A church is only mentioned in the BoM. So why be concerned?"

Protestants long before Smith wrote the BOM believed this. (one Martin Luther comes to mind.) Revelations 17 has been used, not the BoM.

Here's a little article for you and Starsky:

http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga.html

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by ExMormon-Jason@Jun 1 2004, 01:32 PM

"So in other words, you want me to prove, via Catholic documents, that it is the G&A church, and you are eliminating historical documents? That is an interesting approach, since a lot of the theological stance is based on the historical actions and philosophies of the church."

No. Go right ahead. Im just saying be scholarly.

"The basis of the Crucades, the basis of how the cross came into vogue as a symbol of Christianity, the basis of some of the priesthood orders, etc., all contribute to this understanding."

Fine. Let's chat.

"Sorry, count me out. Unless you can prove through LDS scripture and all the prophets teachings that the LDS and/or the RLDS is not the true church."

What if I could prove from the Book of Mormon that the LDS/RLDS church is the great and abominable church of the devil? Would that peak your interest?

"Just out of curiosity, why are you concerned about this? You don't believe in the restored scriptures, and the G&A church is only mentioned in the BoM. So why be concerned?"

Protestants long before Smith wrote the BOM believed this. (one Martin Luther comes to mind.) Revelations 17 has been used, not the BoM.

Here's a little article for you and Starsky:

http://www.mormonfortress.com/ga.html

Sorry Jason, but I don't believe the Catholic church is the Great and Abominable....

I stated above that I believed it during my mission in France....that was over ....well lets say...it has been decades....

I have since come to believe what I stated above in another post...and that is the the G&A is 'people' of a dark and worldly heart...