The Great And Abominable Church

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jun 7 2004, 07:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jun 7 2004, 07:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--jackvance88@Jun 7 2004, 03:20 PM

so the catholic church is the G&AC hey. how exactly does that fit with all that preaching by the pope against abortion, same-sex marriage and contraception? the catholic church has been one of the LDS church's staunchest allies in its crusade against anti-family values.

surely the G&AC, the other church so to speak, is Satan's own church. he's meant to be smart and cunning right? so he's not gonna have a denomination with buildings and signs on it and so on. rather it's pervasive and invisible, like a virus, and recruits followers from all walks of life.

The ways of satan are not so obvious that he will create a church with himself as the head.

He will create a church that is soooo close to the true church but with all the doctrines subtly altered, that it would be hard to know which is true or which is false. OR, he will infiltrate a church that started off as the true church, and gradually, over time, change the doctrines so they are no longer recognizable as what it started off as, thereby cheating all those souls who put their trust in that church.

This reminded me of the scripture which states:

2 Ne. 28: 21

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Starsky+Jun 7 2004, 09:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Starsky @ Jun 7 2004, 09:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jun 7 2004, 07:46 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--jackvance88@Jun 7 2004, 03:20 PM

so the catholic church is the G&AC hey. how exactly does that fit with all that preaching by the pope against abortion, same-sex marriage and contraception? the catholic church has been one of the LDS church's staunchest allies in its crusade against anti-family values.

surely the G&AC, the other church so to speak, is Satan's own church. he's meant to be smart and cunning right? so he's not gonna have a denomination with buildings and signs on it and so on. rather it's pervasive and invisible, like a virus, and recruits followers from all walks of life.

The ways of satan are not so obvious that he will create a church with himself as the head.

He will create a church that is soooo close to the true church but with all the doctrines subtly altered, that it would be hard to know which is true or which is false. OR, he will infiltrate a church that started off as the true church, and gradually, over time, change the doctrines so they are no longer recognizable as what it started off as, thereby cheating all those souls who put their trust in that church.

This reminded me of the scripture which states:

2 Ne. 28: 21

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil cheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

Exactly!

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jun 7 2004, 08:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jun 7 2004, 08:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Jun 7 2004, 07:56 PM

Jenda, course anyone can apply what you just wrote to the LDS church as Tr2 has so obviously attempted to do so...

I don't think this subject is so pertinent to our salvation that we have to know the answers right now..just my 2 cents

Oh, I am not allowed to post to the topic now?

And, sorry to say, the topic is pertinent to our salvation. It underlies how we make decisions and choices in our life and determines which side of the fence we will sit on.

no Jenda, I'm just saying that there are people on this thread who are getting way too wrapped up in this discussion and acting like it's the most important thing in life...

and it's not...

didn't mean to imply that you're not allowed to talk about it...just seems silly that some people get so emotional over a subject that no one knows the real answers to...

[Ray]

I just read what our Bible Dictionary has to say about Baal and Babylon. Has everyone else read that?

Thanks for the thoughts, Traveler. You’re very well informed. :)

Starsky,

Great thoughts from you too. Thanks. :)

Jenda,

I don’t think you’re entirely wrong. It’s just that the Catholic church isn’t the only Great and Abominable organization on Earth.

Take a look at what happens when you substitute “world” for “church”, in your own words:

… I have studied a lot of things about the world and find many things that went on in God's name (and still does) through the world is wrong.

That does not mean that the [all the ?] people in the world are wrong. There are many wonderful, God-fearing people in the world. That does not change the nature of the world, though.

And there are many people in my world (which I consider to be the true world)- who are not wonderful or God-fearing.

There is a little scripture that states that at the end of time, when darkness shall sweep the land and the vengeance of the Lord comes, it will start in His own house. So, it is not like my world stands in a better spot than your world.

D&C 105:9-11b RLDS (112:23-26 LDS)

9a Verily, verily I say unto you, Darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face.

9b Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth--a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation--and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.

10a And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord.

10b First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

In my mind it is clear that Satan is the founder of the Great and Abominable Church, and he reigns over a whole lot more than the Catholic Church.

Keep in mind that everything of this world will end when Jesus returns to reign personally upon the Earth. Everything but the kingdom of God which is already here, that is, because the kingdom of God is not of this world.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Why?

[Tr2]

Why do you consider the Catholic Church "abominable"?

Because their church leaders tell them to.

The ways of satan are not so obvious that he will create a church with himself as the head.

Funny that this would come from somebody who belongs to a church that was formed the the exact way the the bible warned about.

[Ray]

Originally posted by Unorthodox+Jun 8 2004, 04:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Unorthodox @ Jun 8 2004, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Ray@Jun 8 2004, 11:34 AM

I don’t think you’re entirely wrong.  It’s just that the Catholic church isn’t the only Great and Abominable organization on Earth.

Why do you consider the Catholic Church "abominable"?

Probably for the same reasons that Jenda does, Starsky almost did, and I did for a while, except that I now see that the source of the problem should be distinguished from the Catholic church.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places – Ephesians 6:12

The influence inspired by these “principalities, powers, and rulers of the darkness in this world” has been felt and still is felt by some people in “Catholic” churches, just as they are also felt by some people in “Protestant” churches which resulted from them, but they are also felt by all other people in all the other religions in this world, including the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

As Starsky said, there are 2 main churches in this world, the church of God, and the church of the Devil. Our membership in either one is determined by “which spirit we listeth to obey”, or by what influence prompts us to do what we do, say what we say, and be what we are.

Jenda also explained that there are 2 churches within a church: the institution, and the people who comprise that institution. In other words, a church is a kingdom, or government, similar to the government of a City, State, or Country. If there were a government governing this whole world, or planet Earth, you could say that was a church too, but in this case, there are 2 churches on this Earth. At some point in the future, though, Satan will be dismissed from this Earth, having served his purpose, and his kingdom will be somewhere else. Not completely gone, though, because that is impossible.

And now you should understand that when I say abominable, I am referring to being offensive to the point of intense anger, which leads to hatred, which leads to murder. And as I have said before, the motivation behind all of that is fear. Yes, my friends, the person influencing Yoda knew what he was talking about. :)

And now you should understand that when I say a particular religion is abominable, I am referring to how that institution relates to people, both to those who are within that institution and those who are apart from it, including God. In the past, present, and future? What did or will they do? What did or will they say, and be, and why?

To add to something else Jenda said:

I think we are all puppets, in a way. It’s just that we all get to choose how and whether or not to respond to those principalities who are trying to pull our strings.

[Jenda]

If anyone were really interested in seeing what the Catholic Church will do to bring all under control of the pope, do a google search with "jesuit + oath".

The Catholic Church was almost successful, at one point, in bringing world dominion under their control, and it is close again. And that is what you are talking about, Ray, is it not?

[Guest jackvance88]

what about the world of commerce and finance. that's all the world is following at the moment, that's the modern day idol. if a church is a place we go to worship god, then the church of the devil is a place we worship satan. few people actually worship satan himself, but lots of people worship and pursue money and wealth. reminds me of something satan says in the temple ceremony.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Jun 9 2004, 08:45 AM

Why do you consider the Catholic Church "abominable"?

Because their church leaders tell them to.

Actually, that is not true. Our leaders have moved on from that stance to state that all churches are equal.

The ways of satan are not so obvious that he will create a church with himself as the head.

Funny that this would come from somebody who belongs to a church that was formed the the exact way the the bible warned about.

And what way would that be?

[Ray]

Originally posted by Jenda@ Jun 9 2004, 10:34 AM

The Catholic Church was almost successful, at one point, in bringing world dominion under their control, and it is close again. And that is what you are talking about, Ray, is it not?

No, not really. I am trying to show that the “Catholic” church is merely one of many institutions influenced by Satan and his kingdom, also known as the Great and Abominable Church.

Try seeing the world through my eyes for a moment, in an eternal perspective.

Do you imagine that the “Catholic church” will always be around forever? I don’t. I don’t even see the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” as always being around forever. So what will there be? The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan… two separate and distinct kingdoms. This world, the planet Earth, will someday become a world of our Lord Jesus Christ, just one of many other worlds that are already a part of His kingdom, with some people who are members of his kingdom living on this Earth. Our Lord could claim this planet right now, because after all, He did create it, and He does have dominion over Satan, but He has a purpose for allowing this world to remain under the influence of Satan right now. And I know you know what that purpose is.

So, since we are here to be tested, Satan is allowed to influence us according to His desires. Those who follow Satan become part of his Great and Abominable Church, or kingdom, and those who follow Jesus become part of His Great and Righteous Church, or kingdom.

Can you hear me now?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Ray+Jun 9 2004, 12:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ray @ Jun 9 2004, 12:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@ Jun 9 2004, 10:34 AM

The Catholic Church was almost successful, at one point, in bringing world dominion under their control, and it is close again. And that is what you are talking about, Ray, is it not?

No, not really. I am trying to show that the “Catholic” church is merely one of many institutions influenced by Satan and his kingdom, also known as the Great and Abominable Church.

Try seeing the world through my eyes for a moment, in an eternal perspective.

Do you imagine that the “Catholic church” will always be around forever? I don’t. I don’t even see the “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” as always being around forever. So what will there be? The kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan… two separate and distinct kingdoms. This world, the planet Earth, will someday become a world of our Lord Jesus Christ, just one of many other worlds that are already a part of His kingdom, with some people who are members of his kingdom living on this Earth. Our Lord could claim this planet right now, because after all, He did create it, and He does have dominion over Satan, but He has a purpose for allowing this world to remain under the influence of Satan right now. And I know you know what that purpose is.

So, since we are here to be tested, Satan is allowed to influence us according to His desires. Those who follow Satan become part of his Great and Abominable Church, or kingdom, and those who follow Jesus become part of His Great and Righteous Church, or kingdom.

Can you hear me now?

I do understand what you are saying, Ray, but I believe that the G&A church will be a real church. It will grow out of a religious structure, such as the WCC, or it will grow out of a powerful, influential church, and I think that that has already happened with the Catholic church. And the fact that orders were created to bring governments under control of the Catholic church only emphasizes that concept in my mind. Once governments and world orders are brought under it's control, it is but a half-step away from having enough power and influence to be a pawn of Satan, which it has shown itself to be in the past.

[Ray]

Heh, well, at least I understand your ideas now, and I respect your right to have them, but I still don’t see things that way. I’ll give it some more thought, though, because I don’t have a testimony either way about whether or not Satan will have one “real” institution in which to focus his governance of the world. It does seem pretty hard to imagine, though. Can you imagine any church or government in the world today that would agree to such a thing…that their church or government should be governed by the Catholic church? I've heard that it happened in the past, to some degree, but that is one of the reasons I believe those days were called the “Dark Ages”. I certainly hope we’re a lot more enlightened than that these days.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Oh, I see.

[Guest Unorthodox]

But I do not agree.

[Jenda]

To be honest, it does seems to be the way of the past, but things are not always what they seem.

The WCC, which is the growing ecumenism of this age has bowed to embrace the corrupt Liberation Theology which came out of the Jesuit order, which is placing them, and all groups/denominations/societies that are also embracing it right back under the thumb of the Catholic church. And the WCC is now courting the Catholic Church, which means, when it happens, that two pawns of Satan will join together.

[Ray]

Hmmm, now that I think about it, this is definitely a thought worth exploring. I had heard something about the WCC before, but I never have learned a lot about it. Thanks Jenda. :)

And for anyone else who wants to know more, here's the link:

http://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/who/index-e.html

[Guest Unorthodox]

Jesuit oath...wasn't that a hoax?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Unorthodox+Jun 9 2004, 12:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Unorthodox @ Jun 9 2004, 12:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 9 2004, 10:34 AM

If anyone were really interested in seeing what the Catholic Church will do to bring all under control of the pope, do a google search with "jesuit + oath".

The Catholic Church was almost successful, at one point, in bringing world dominion under their control, and it is close again.  And that is what you are talking about, Ray, is it not?

I think it is time to quote some Catholic Apologetics...

http://www.sierratimes.com/cgi-bin/ikonboa...rum=2&topic=357

Numerous other attacks have also been made against the Jesuits over the centuries. Protestants have been fond to repeat claims that the Jesuits taught dubious and immoral doctrines. These include regicide (the killing of kings) and "the end justifies the means." Cries have also been raised about the alleged "Jesuit Oath" and the "Monita Secreta."

The charge of regicide is traced to a work published in Spain in 1599 by the Jesuit, Mariana. He laid down the principle that a king who violates the rights of his subjects and his coronation oath may lawfully be deposed and even put to death. General Aquaviva, on being made aware of the contents of this work, immediately condemned it and ordered the work to be suppressed until the objectionable parts were purged. The original has only been preserved by Protestant controversialists seeking to make capital out of it.

The maxim "the end justifies the means" as taught by the Jesuits is really a harmless one. It means that there is always a right way of doing a right thing. So, if it is allowable to eat beef it is right to kill and cook oxen; if it is allowable to have children it is right to marry; if it is allowable to kill in self-defense it is right to make and bear arms, etc.

The "Monita Secreta" were said to be secret instructions given to all Jesuits to pursue every crooked and unprincipled tactic to advance the interests of the Society, even at the expense of other Catholic religious orders. In reality, the Monita is an elaborate fraud emanating originally from Cracow, Poland in 1614. All reasonable Protestant historians hold the Monita to be simply a spurious lampoon of the Order. Likewise, the alleged "Jesuit Oath." It is nothing more than a hysterical fabrication of a Robert Ware in his work Foxes and Firebrands produced in the late seventeenth century. Among other things, the oath swears all Jesuits to assume the outward form of any religion in order deceive unwitting Protestants back into the arms of Rome. Of course, no such oath was ever taken by any Jesuit. It reminds one of the fabricated plots of the same period implicating Catholics in alleged attempts to overthrow the English Monarchy aimed at re-igniting anti-Catholic sentiment throughout Britain.

The above should serve as enough to illustrate the net contribution of the Society of Jesus to the cause of Christ and the Church in the world since her foundation. Today, the Society of Jesus continues on with a different collection of triumphs and crosses. Those members who strive to faithfully uphold the original spirit of St. Ignatius maintain the struggle for orthodoxy and fidelity to the Holy Father. In all things these Jesuits forge on, keeping in mind St. Ignatius’ original motto for the Society, "Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam" (For the greater glory of God).

I don't know if that is true any more than I know if I can trust Mormon apologetics. But there it is...

The oath was revealed several times over history, and it appeared in the same form with each revealment. There are other sources besides the Library of Congress, books dating back to the early 1800's in other countries where there are copies of the oath.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Jun 9 2004, 12:43 PM

I looked up the WCC...I had not heard of it...and I don't see what the problem is with them. What do you see in the WCC as corrupt?

The WCC (together with the NCC) force all those who join with them to abandon any beliefs or concepts that make them "unique". The RLDS church, which has been interested in joining these organizations for quite a while have, indeed, dropped the unique beliefs of the church to conform to that requirement.

They no longer embrace the BoM as foundational scripture to the church, it has been demoted to supportive.

They no longer profess belief in having a prophet for a leader (we are to be a prophetic people instead of a people with a prophet.)

They no longer profess to be the true church, instead, all churches are equal, and our priesthood is not the only priesthood authorized by God.

It is not hard to see where an organization like that is bound.

[Guest Peace]

No matter what your political view or party association, this theory is still very interesting. But Fact or Theory, the real fact is, as the famous saying goes. Those who don't remember the past and learn from it are destined to repeat it.

At about the time our original 13 states adopted their new constitution, in the year 1787, Alexander Tyler (a Scottish history professor at The University of Edinburgh) had this to say about "The Fall of The Athenian Republic" some 2,000 years prior. "A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, (which is) always followed by a dictatorship."

"The average age of the worlds greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

From Bondage to spiritual faith;

From spiritual faith to great courage;

From courage to liberty;

From liberty to abundance;

From abundance to complacency;

From complacency to apathy;

From apathy to dependence;

From dependence back into bondage."

[Guest Unorthodox]

Oh, I see.

[Guest Unorthodox]

Any evidence for that?

[Guest Unorthodox]

Anyone?

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Unorthodox+Jun 9 2004, 01:43 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Unorthodox @ Jun 9 2004, 01:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Jenda@Jun 9 2004, 12:48 PM

The oath was revealed several times over history, and it appeared in the same form with each revealment.  There are other sources besides  the Library of Congress, books dating back to the early 1800's in other countries where there are copies of the oath.

If it is true that the Jesuit Oath is a fraud, then it doesn't matter how many copies were made, because the source document was a fraud. The article says that the document was a fraud written in the 1600's ...plenty of time for copies to be made, and for it to end up in the Library of Congress.

I suppose I shouldn't just take a Catholic apolgetic article at face value. So we need more evidence to prove the Jesuit Oath is a fraud.

The order only dates back to, what was it, the early 1600's, to combat the growth of protestantism.

And, yes, of course the Catholic church is going to claim it is a fraud, similar to (and I hate to point it out) how the LDS have covered up the Avenging Angels and have apologized for the doctrine of polygamy. If it is an embarassment, sweep it under the rug.