Honest searching - please help

[Mobius]

I am a former member of the Church who has been struggling with certain aspects of faith, spirituality, religion, doctrine, etc. for some time now (not just LDS aspects). I am at a point in my life where my previous battles of faith are front and center and I find myself searching for help with honest answers to difficult questions. My research on this forum as well as non-Mormon forums reveals a very strong bias toward the beliefs of each forum's primary membership (which I suppose unfortunately should be expected).

Does anyone out there know of any good forums in which spirituality and belief can be discussed openly and honestly without being labelled "anti," "apologist," etc. and questions can be answered with something more substantial than "have faith" "that's the way my god made things, so there's no reason to question."?

Thanks!

[VisionOfLehi]

Try here. We have plenty of non-LDS members, as well as converts like myself. I'm an intelligent person, and a strong LDS member, but I spent the first 19 years of my life as an agnostic and occasionally "against" religion.

The point is, I'm sure I, and others, can provide answers that you seek, without steeping you with antagonistic answers. And, if some don't like the thread you might find a couple people to private message and talk with.

Otherwise, I don't know where you could go. But I can say, that as a newcomer to faith of any kind, I often find myself battling internally, with what I thought I knew, and "skeptic" questions, against what I know now. I'm pretty sure I can understand a lot of your questions, and help direct you somehow, whether with a direct reply or by guiding you to someplace else with the answers you need.

I know it might be a tad "unfaithful" of me, but I don't think everyone is "ready" for the restored Gospel, and I don't think it's necessary to put it in their faces. There's a lot of good people out there, with great faith or spirituality, or even just good character, that are part of other denominations, religions, or neither. I'm more interested in having more people like that around than just "converting" everyone.

[WANDERER]

I wish I did.

Investigating LDS beliefs has kind of challenged a lot of my own and I'm in a repackaging process of what do I believe...I had no idea that concepts would be so different. Er, and beliefs that make me happy and show a loving God that is the one I know WELL is religion meant to make anyone happy...? Am I shopping for a God that fits? Who am I? The thing is it makes so much sense (LDS) and if religious belief is restorationist what are the fundamental things that hold it all together? Yes faith and loving God (sorry, but they're the only things that hold the tree upright ...as all evidence is biased)...but I keep hearing truth and confirmation and factual evidence too. What are the core things in my faith that I must uphold. I'm sure my God expects me to do the right thing and what exactly is that?

The problem is: a fiery pit of hell for those who haven't heard of Jesus..and other stuff that just gives me a headache? VERSUS wearing special clothing, a patriarchal structure (who am I kidding, that is what Christianity is after all, that's never going to change even in our own social structure...why do I care...because I see it as a male toll bridge to God, and oh well, maybe that will change but not in this world. Sorry if that offends I know I'm out there on my own with the way I feel about it) and a few things that shouldn't have happened in the past but did and a whole lot of interesting feelings from antis? 3 years ago I uploaded some bits of the family tree that geanologists were looking for and I didn't know about baptism of the dead and my mother would kill me for that....people have some strong feelings about loved and departed ones that don't bear up to it. I have more now and how do I share that with people who are looking because I want to? And I understand the LDS perspective on it BUT doing something unknowingly and all that, but I guess it wouldn't matter where I put it online...except it would to my mother. She'd view it as not letting the dead rest peacefully while the LDS concept is not like that at all. Sorry if that offends, but she is majorly upset about these sorts of things.

It kind of makes me ask, what about my faith is real....and the only thing I fall back on is I know that I love Jesus and that He is with me hang on or shouldn't I finish that sentence with know that HE is true(hard to explain that one, but I don't have any problem with confirmation of faith, more is always a plus I guess).....

Perhaps confusion is one of those things that is part of His plan and the next shove in the right direction of growing up spiritually. Ah, I'm so trusting. All things work together for good for them that love Him. But honestly...I wish I hadn't started as it's going to be a bumpy ride that's for sure. There's always that 5% factor that I may crawl out of this a confirmed atheist with occasionally atheistically challenging moments...cause God is no respecter of beliefs LOL. I once looked into it as a sort of refuge from a constant conscience warfare...you can be a good person and not worry about good in terms of how good will always be less than God's plan of perfection..., it didn't work out so well. Er, the vacation from religion that never was. Faith will always make you come out of the atheist closet so to speak.

Do I need some more cheese to go with that whine?

Good question to ask. I wish you well.

Adding: yes I know I sound anti...asking for heavenly help with that one.

[lilered]

I would suggest you start a thread on this forum. Asking for a discussion on whatever subjects you are interested in discussing. Do them one at a time until you obtain suffiecent information to reach a decision. I do not think what you are going through is unusual. Many of us have a point in our life where we have questioned our core beliefs etc.

One thing that helped me was I read, pondered, and studied, the "Old Testament" & then the New Testament, it strengthened my Testimony of God and Jesus Christ. Once I started down this path again, it rekindled my desire to pray sincerely and earnestly for the "Holy Spirit" to witness to me of its truthfulness. This same process was then repeated thru all of the "Standard Works". This entire process took 2 1/2 years. When I finished, I knew exactly what I wanted, what I had to do to get it, and never looked back.

"Holding On To The Rod" really works.

[Misshalfway]

I think that it is absolutely OK and even right to ask questions. I think that it is essential in that questioning to make sure one is humble to the possible answers. These two components make growth and true spiritual knowledge possible. If you get an answer you don't like, can you humble yourself to it? Like the rich young man who asks the Lord what more he can do? And Jesus instructs him to sell all he has, but he can't cause it wasn't the answer he wanted.

I think you ought to give it a go on this forum. You will prolly meet someone who will be prone to label throwing, but on the balance I think it is possible to have honest conversations. As long as we all respect each others convictions.

What are your difficult questions? Love to hear about your battles.

[skalenfehl]

Some good questions and concerns. I think, really, you've come to the right place, Mobius and Wanderer, for honest and open dialog. The perfect place to ask would be in the "Learn about the Mormon Church" topic forum. Or perhaps you can continue in this thread and a mod can move this topic over there or just leave it here. Best wishes.

[Mobius]

One question I have has to do with the traditional argument of science vs. religion. I recently read Henry Eyring's biography titled Mormon Scientist and I must say I was disappointed. I was hoping to find out some information on how a person can be a scientist and also believe in a specific organized theology, but what I learned is that you can't reconcile LDS doctrine with scientific discovery - Henry Eyring believed in evolution, an Earth that is billions of years old and has never been static, the lack of answers to prayers by God directly, etc. All of these seem to be in contradiction to LDS doctrine - am I missing something?

So...my question: Does anyone have any useful ideas of how to believe in a church that interpets the Bible and other scripture literally and pretty much abandons any scientific findings which contradict its doctrine and trumps it with "have faith?" Most of the examples I have under this topic are the specifics of most of my doctrinal disbeliefs.

Just as an aside, over the past several years I have been reading books by many spiritual leaders. From what I can see Buddhism appears to be the "religion" most closely aligned to what we actually observe in real life. I have heard so much of Einstein being a religious person, and I actually found a quote from him somewhere that stated that Buddhism most closely aligns with scientific findings. Interesting...

I am leaning toward a universal approach in which people are intelligent enough to realize that religion is merely an organized construct to help people acheive spirituality. Religion is primarily based on culture, upbringing and personality and different religions (or even no religion at all) will resonate more with different people.

I suppose in some ways I find this "whose religion is the truth?" debate somewhat academic, kind of like arguing which superhero is the best (the "my god can beat up your god" playground bullying). If I were a lawyer and made a very comfortable living I would be assinine to assume that everyone needs to be a lawyer to make a comfortable living. I can't see why people make the same leap in logic with religion, especially since religion is such a variable and theoretical construct.

[Guest tomk]

I am a former member of the Church who has been struggling with certain aspects of faith, spirituality, religion, doctrine, etc. for some time now (not just LDS aspects). I am at a point in my life where my previous battles of faith are front and center and I find myself searching for help with honest answers to difficult questions. My research on this forum as well as non-Mormon forums reveals a very strong bias toward the beliefs of each forum's primary membership (which I suppose unfortunately should be expected).

Does anyone out there know of any good forums in which spirituality and belief can be discussed openly and honestly without being labelled "anti," "apologist," etc. and questions can be answered with something more substantial than "have faith" "that's the way my god made things, so there's no reason to question."?

Thanks!

Why go to man for what only God can provide answers to?

Forums will not answer your questions for you. They won't give you peace and assurance and conviction.

If we are converted "through the world" we can be "unconverted through the world" also! Faith only comes as a gift from God above, not sideways from other fallen men and women.

The following advice works no matter what religion we may presently belong to.

[Mobius]

Thanks for your feedback, and I respect your opinion and your faith, but that is exactly the kind of response I was hoping I wouldn't hear (as mentioned in my original post), and perhaps the reason many people fall away from the church ("Oh, you have questions about evolution? Have faith!" "Oh, Egyptologists say Joseph's interpretation of the facsimiles is incorrect? Have faith!" "Oh, Brigham Young really did teach that Adam was God, that blacks are less righteous than whites and that for some people Christ's atonement is not enough and they have to be murdered? Have faith!" ad infinitum...)

At some point you have to stop and think - what is your faith hanging on? That you had some warm fuzzy feelings when you read the BoM or in the temple or something? I have the same feelings when meditating, reading spiritual books from other authors (esp. Eckhart Tolle), and being a good person. Despite many religious people holding on to this, faith is NOT enough if facts (read: truth or light) shine on the darkness. Despite what the religious "faithful" believed in Galileo's time, the Earth DID actually revolve around the sun. Now that seems so trite, but back then it was a major religious upheaval.

[Guest tomk]

One question I have has to do with the traditional argument of science vs. religion. I recently read Henry Eyring's biography titled Mormon Scientist and I must say I was disappointed. I was hoping to find out some information on how a person can be a scientist and also believe in a specific organized theology, but what I learned is that you can't reconcile LDS doctrine with scientific discovery - Henry Eyring believed in evolution, an Earth that is billions of years old and has never been static, the lack of answers to prayers by God directly, etc. All of these seem to be in contradiction to LDS doctrine - am I missing something?

So...my question: Does anyone have any useful ideas of how to believe in a church that interpets the Bible and other scripture literally and pretty much abandons any scientific findings which contradict its doctrine and trumps it with "have faith?" Most of the examples I have under this topic are the specifics of most of my doctrinal disbeliefs.

Just as an aside, over the past several years I have been reading books by many spiritual leaders. From what I can see Buddhism appears to be the "religion" most closely aligned to what we actually observe in real life. I have heard so much of Einstein being a religious person, and I actually found a quote from him somewhere that stated that Buddhism most closely aligns with scientific findings. Interesting...

I am leaning toward a universal approach in which people are intelligent enough to realize that religion is merely an organized construct to help people acheive spirituality. Religion is primarily based on culture, upbringing and personality and different religions (or even no religion at all) will resonate more with different people.

I suppose in some ways I find this "whose religion is the truth?" debate somewhat academic, kind of like arguing which superhero is the best (the "my god can beat up your god" playground bullying). If I were a lawyer and made a very comfortable living I would be assinine to assume that everyone needs to be a lawyer to make a comfortable living. I can't see why people make the same leap in logic with religion, especially since religion is such a variable and theoretical construct.

I really feel like I understand your plight.

The answer "you must have faith" does seem to be a bit unhelpful.

I consider myself to be a reasonably intelligent person. The reason I believe in God is not rational or irrational. It is extra-rational. My belief in God is not based-upon anything this world can provide to me by way of proof. And I can say I know for myself, independent of any other person.

Why do we want to discard or discount our feelings? They ARE the way God has ordained to speak with us. There IS a "veil" over our 5 senses that prevents us from detecting that God is there!!! That is why the "scientific" approach to God casts effective doubt upon His existence!! It works because, based on the restrictions of science, God can never be proven to exist (ironically, the proof is all around us if we have "eyes to see" and "ears to hear" - the proof that God exists is in the very beating of my heart, every intake of breath!).

But there is no veil over our feelings.

That is what we are to endeavor to cultivate while here on earth. We are to develop our ability to "hear Him" -- not through the 5 senses -- but through our feelings. And as we trust that, and seek it, and obey it, we are given more and more and more. It IS possible to KNOW that God does exist!! But it can only happen in the way He has put in place.

It is pride that only puts one's trust in the measurable.

I can't put it any plainer than that.

Good luck on your journey!!

Tom

[MobyMule]

One question I have has to do with the traditional argument of science vs. religion. I recently read Henry Eyring's biography titled Mormon Scientist and I must say I was disappointed. I was hoping to find out some information on how a person can be a scientist and also believe in a specific organized theology, but what I learned is that you can't reconcile LDS doctrine with scientific discovery - Henry Eyring believed in evolution, an Earth that is billions of years old and has never been static, the lack of answers to prayers by God directly, etc. All of these seem to be in contradiction to LDS doctrine - am I missing something?

So...my question: Does anyone have any useful ideas of how to believe in a church that interpets the Bible and other scripture literally and pretty much abandons any scientific findings which contradict its doctrine and trumps it with "have faith?" Most of the examples I have under this topic are the specifics of most of my doctrinal disbeliefs.

Just as an aside, over the past several years I have been reading books by many spiritual leaders. From what I can see Buddhism appears to be the "religion" most closely aligned to what we actually observe in real life. I have heard so much of Einstein being a religious person, and I actually found a quote from him somewhere that stated that Buddhism most closely aligns with scientific findings. Interesting...

I am leaning toward a universal approach in which people are intelligent enough to realize that religion is merely an organized construct to help people acheive spirituality. Religion is primarily based on culture, upbringing and personality and different religions (or even no religion at all) will resonate more with different people.

I suppose in some ways I find this "whose religion is the truth?" debate somewhat academic, kind of like arguing which superhero is the best (the "my god can beat up your god" playground bullying). If I were a lawyer and made a very comfortable living I would be assinine to assume that everyone needs to be a lawyer to make a comfortable living. I can't see why people make the same leap in logic with religion, especially since religion is such a variable and theoretical construct.

I would say science and LDS doctrine coincide very will imho. Interpretations of doctrine may not at certain time periods depending on the understanding of those doing the interpretations. I find that evolution and very old Earth do not undermine the LDS faith.

[Guest tomk]

Thanks for your feedback, and I respect your opinion and your faith, but that is exactly the kind of response I was hoping I wouldn't hear (as mentioned in my original post), and perhaps the reason many people fall away from the church ("Oh, you have questions about evolution? Have faith!" "Oh, Egyptologists say Joseph's interpretation of the facsimiles is incorrect? Have faith!" "Oh, Brigham Young really did teach that Adam was God, that blacks are less righteous than whites and that for some people Christ's atonement is not enough and they have to be murdered? Have faith!" ad infinitum...)

At some point you have to stop and think - what is your faith hanging on? That you had some warm fuzzy feelings when you read the BoM or in the temple or something? I have the same feelings when meditating, reading spiritual books from other authors (esp. Eckhart Tolle), and being a good person. Despite many religious people holding on to this, faith is NOT enough if facts (read: truth or light) shine on the darkness. Despite what the religious "faithful" believed in Galileo's time, the Earth DID actually revolve around the sun. Now that seems so trite, but back then it was a major religious upheaval.

It does not surprise me that you can have "warm fuzzies" while reading "non-LDS" material. To my knowledge, God has never indicated that He would choose to reveal TRUTH to us only through Prophets. Prophets do speak the word of God, but they are not the only source of TRUTH.

It is primarily through our FEELINGS that God does speak to us (see my post above).

What is the core of your "problem" with the LDS Faith?

If you think we are misguided -- why post? Why go on and on about it?

What are you trying to get out of us?

If everyone here admitted that you are right and that our faith is pointless -- would that satisfy you?

Getting us to agree with you doesn't help your situation.

[WillowTheWhisp]

I think I'm going to struggle to discuss spirituality without faith coming into it.

[Misshalfway]

Just a few random thoughts.......

First of all, if you are disagreeing or finding impatience with the concept of faith, looking into Christianity may not be the right place to look. The very essence of the Gospel is Faith. It only sounds like to me that you could be seeing faith in the "blind faith" definition. If science is a big issue for you, and you do want to embrace Christianity at some point, you WILL have to come to terms with your own faith. It is part of progression. Faith is also absolutely key to spiritual and eternal knowledge. Faith produces more knowledge...more revelation, not less.

Next. I don't see any conflict between the principle of evolution and the gospel of Jesus Christ and what I call "the plan of salvation." I don't always agree with man's interpretation or explanation of the principle. Because no one can prove it absolutely because of our human limitations.

I wonder perhaps, if you are getting frustrated because all you hear is "have faith" then perhaps you need to change your questions. Are you trying to discover truth? Or are you trying to find dogma that fits your preference or your limited opinion of the truth? Any true scientist can only ask the question. They can't control the answer. So, the inventor of the lightbulb now knows what 300 different ways NOT to make a lightbulb. He had to change his question to find or fit the truth. That is when the "LIGHT" came. (forgive the really bad joke)

[Mobius]

MobyMule, are you a member of the core LDS church? I am pretty sure that evolution is not taught in any form (unless you consider becoming a god evolving : )) and that it teaches literal interpretation of the Bible. Don't believe me? Try bearing your testimony next month about how strongly the Spirit has testified to you that man evolved from primates in Africa and see how quickly you get called for a Bishop's interview! Pretty much everything in LDS doctrine that I know of contradicts what you said.

[Mobius]

Misshalfway and tomk. Thanks for your responses - they were very well written and they helped me explore a little more of what I am searching for. I think I really am just trying to find my personal beliefs and be honest with myself, and you have helped tremendously in that.

If I am honest with myself, I know that emotions are one of the most easily manipulated aspects of human life (ever been angry, frustrated, heard a speach from Martin Luther King Jr, Hitler, etc.?) and are a very poor source of truth, which is partly why science has been able to resolve so many ancient myths - it uses logic rather than emotion. That realization helps a lot. And, this is my "core problem" with the LDS faith - that it claims to be THE true religion and bases that primarily on emotion (many of the atrocities in Nazi Germany were founded on the same principle btw). Seems too loose I suppose, so I was trying to figure out how people reconcile that in their minds.

Also if I am honest with myself, you're right Misshalfway, faith is a HUGE issue for me, and perhaps Christianity is not the best place to look. I have found many other sources of truth that don't discount our God-given ability to reason. The primary issue is that the consequences of not believing in the LDS church is the loss of my family since I have been told that if I don't believe the same things I cannot be a good husband and father. Grrrr.

Wouldn't it be interesting if God is the one using logic and Satan is the one using emotion here on earth in the battle (it would sync with the battle in heaven) and we are all just missing the mark like the Jews in Jesus' time???

[Misshalfway]

Misshalfway and tomk. Thanks for your responses - they were very well written and they helped me explore a little more of what I am searching for. I think I really am just trying to find my personal beliefs and be honest with myself, and you have helped tremendously in that.

If I am honest with myself, I know that emotions are one of the most easily manipulated aspects of human life (ever been angry, frustrated, heard a speach from Martin Luther King Jr, Hitler, etc.?) and are a very poor source of truth, which is partly why science has been able to resolve so many ancient myths - it uses logic rather than emotion. That realization helps a lot. And, this is my "core problem" with the LDS faith - that it claims to be THE true religion and bases that primarily on emotion (many of the atrocities in Nazi Germany were founded on the same principle btw). Seems too loose I suppose, so I was trying to figure out how people reconcile that in their minds.

Also if I am honest with myself, you're right Misshalfway, faith is a HUGE issue for me, and perhaps Christianity is not the best place to look. I have found many other sources of truth that don't discount our God-given ability to reason. The primary issue is that the consequences of not believing in the LDS church is the loss of my family since I have been told that if I don't believe the same things I cannot be a good husband and father. Grrrr.

Wouldn't it be interesting if God is the one using logic and Satan is the one using emotion here on earth in the battle (it would sync with the battle in heaven) and we are all just missing the mark like the Jews in Jesus' time???

Your words are sincere. And interesting as well. I find it understandable that one might assume that the Mormon church converts its members through emotion. I do think that some confuse emotion with Spiritual communication. You have prolly visited those testimony meetings that appear to be a tear-fest and that appear to abandon reason. My personal and public experience has been very different. You see, I believe that we have an inner voice separate from our thoughts and emotions. We need emotions and we need reason. God made us with both. Learning to listen to both and understand both is part of our learnings in the earthly realm. But God doesn't use logic or emotion to speak to us. He uses spirit! Sometimes we have an emotional and even a logical response to that spirit. I find that through my effort and stretching and with continual exposure to the Spirit of the Lord, I can tell it apart from my emotion. That distinction is very clear to me now. It is something hard to describe. But something that gives me sure knowledge at the very core of who I am.

Interesting that you wonder if Satan is the one using emotions. You better believe he does. He is very good an manipulating the hearts of the children of men. This is the very war we are in! All of us are being pullled to the evil wicked and carnal .... but also are being invited and influenced toward the good, righteous, and true. I think the missing peice to you theory is the need for trust. We must know and trust ourselves to be able to see through the emotion..... and the logic. We also need God and faith in God and His forms of communication. They are the only communications that are pure. I like Buddism and other Eastern philosophy because they have helped me to quiet my mind. To quiet my emotion and logical brain and to listen to my voice and to open myself to the voice of God.

You acknowledge the existence of an adversary.....so you must believe in a God. I think the most important thing then is to determine how God speaks to man. Then you can tap into the most valuable resource for truth!!! Then as you search all the world for truth, you will then be able to recognize it when you find it. And you will be able to trust that you truly have found it. Reason cannot do it alone. Emotion cannot do it alone. Spirit can! That is what it is all about. So, my friend. If you believe in God, how do you think He speaks to you? Do you recognize it when He is talking to you? Because he most surely is! Then if you can feel and know that voice, that is the beginning of faith!!! Because you know that you know and you recognize that you can trust what your sense. I think the human weakness is to assume that we know better than God. To dismiss what may not make sense at the first brush because it doesn't fit with our life-style or our definitions of who we think we are.

The most important question, IMHO, for you to ask is a question for yourself. Will God speak to me? How? And do I have the courage to follow?

If you have courage to follow, you will always find safety. If God leads you to Buddism, or Christianity or Islam, it really doesn't matter. Having faith that He will lead you and make truth known unto you whether it is a question of religion or science, this is ALL that really matters. It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk.

Science wants to answer all the questions.......doesn't it? And sometimes it is arrogant enough to think it knows it all. ANd sometime man is arrogant enough to think we know better than God. It takes more than honesty to walk your path. It takes humility, courage, AND faith!

[Mobius]

I've finally found someone who has the intelligence and strength to answer my question honestly: "If God leads you to Buddism, or Christianity or Islam, it really doesn't matter. Having faith that He will lead you and make truth known unto you whether it is a question of religion or science, this is ALL that really matters. It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk." If the LDS church taught that - oh what a better place it would be (sounds more like Buddhism to me : ))

Now, the follow up to that question. If you truly believe that, if you truly believe that what God leads you to may vary depending on your situation and what you need, how can you believe in a church that teaches the exact opposite? THAT is the crux of my problem. In conversations with people about doctrine, faith, etc. it almost always comes down to "well, I'm not sure, but the church sure is a great way to live!" And I really have no argument with that because it's true, but that's not what the LDS Church teaches, so it just makes me wonder how many people don't actually "know" the church is true, but just know that it's a good way to live. If people would agree with that, yes tomk, it would help my situation (remember my family is the one who says I have to believe the same things, so if they understood this it would help our situation immensely).

I remember very distinctly sitting in a Sacrament meeting listening to an RM speak on personal revelation and he was saying that unless you ask God directly if the Church is true you will never know, so I decided to give it a try. I sat right there during the meeting (perfect spiritual environment) and poured my heart out and asked if the LDS Church was true and you know what I "felt?" No! It's just a good way to live and all this "who's right and who's wrong" is not anything an all-loving, all-knowing, all-merciful god would be involved in.

And I'm agnostic btw.

[Misshalfway]

If you felt so sure that your answer was "no", Then why do you still argue the point in your mind? I have learned that when I am truly feeling a spiritual communication, then it settles the argument absolutely. I don't find myself questioning anymore. I move on the the next question. BTW, if you feel you got an answer, how can you still wonder if there is a God?

[Misshalfway]

I've finally found someone who has the intelligence and strength to answer my question honestly: "If God leads you to Buddism, or Christianity or Islam, it really doesn't matter. Having faith that He will lead you and make truth known unto you whether it is a question of religion or science, this is ALL that really matters. It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk." If the LDS church taught that - oh what a better place it would be (sounds more like Buddhism to me : ))

What part of LDS doctrine doesn't teach that a person should trust the leading hand of God? This concept is the very basis of the restoration. It is the very action that started the movement in the first place.

I am going to ask a direct question..... and I hope you will forgive my candor. But, could it be that you like this above statement, because it lets you off the hook??

Also, I never discount the possibility that God will lead an individual to the Truth they NEED and the experience that they need. I have been lead to ideas outside of my culture that have blessed my life immensely. It just so happens that he led me to the earthly church first. Joseph Smith himself said that many of these other religions have much in the way of truth and that we should seek learning out of the best books.

It sounds like you were raised in the church..... and that perhaps is a stumbling block for you. Could it be that you are still battling with what you want and what your parents want? Could it be that guilt and culture are getting in your way? I may be completely reading you wrong, but if you can, let go of your resentments. Let go of your of your preconceptions. Wipe the slate clean and start anew. Then perhaps you can see it with fresh eyes..... Break out of the mormon culture. And even the earthly church establishment and all the imperfectness of the institution and the people in it. Allow yourself to be free of it..... and then consider it. Start with God. Then the Spirit. Then the Savior. Then worry about a church.

[utcowboy]

I read the book "Hearing the Voice of the Lord" and I think it would be a good read for you. By the sounds of it you want the answers that you want and won't accept any others. God will answer you in his own time when you have humbled yourself sufficently to his will. I know that sounds hypocritical, that not really the word I want to use but it is the only one that comes to mind, ask God, a million times if thats what it takes. We are always learning and our beliefs are always growing. We learn things "line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little, there a little", we must learn to crawl before we walk. We've all heard this statements before and they are true, and Misshalfway is right, every religion has some truth... (and the LDS do teach this) If you are lead one way for now, then maybe that is something that you need to learn, to know for yourself, before you can continue to grow.

This are just my thoughts after reading all of these posts... but please read "Hearing the voice of the Lord".... I think it might help you understand feelings vs. truth

[Mobius]

The reason I still argue the point is because the future of my family rides on the answer (as was mentioned in my earlier posts, which I why I keep circling around this). If the answer is what I received, then what? Should I just say "Ok, well god told me the LDS church is not true, let's start working out visitation rights, alimony, etc."? It's a little more complicated than you make it seem. Have you ever had a spiritual decision that had such drastic consequences? Would you really just give up your spouse, children, family and friends so easily? If you can you're a much better person than I am, and you have my respect.

To answer your second question, you can have spiritual impressions and not believe in God. This is a misunderstanding of most Western religions. The entire teachings of Buddhism and many Eastern theologies are based on this. It is more about connecting with the divine within yourself rather than looking to an outside authority for validation, approval or confirmation. The downside with this is, as we see, there is no one god controlling everyone leading them to one truth. Truth resides in yourself, for yourself (it's the awareness behind the thoughts and emotions you mentioned in one of your posts).

[MobyMule]

MobyMule, are you a member of the core LDS church? I am pretty sure that evolution is not taught in any form (unless you consider becoming a god evolving : )) and that it teaches literal interpretation of the Bible. Don't believe me? Try bearing your testimony next month about how strongly the Spirit has testified to you that man evolved from primates in Africa and see how quickly you get called for a Bishop's interview! Pretty much everything in LDS doctrine that I know of contradicts what you said.

Well in sunday school they teach the a day doesn't equal a 24 hour day but a period of unknown length of time during the creation. It is presumptious for anyone to declare exactly how man's earthly tabernacle was made. I don't really think it affects anyone salvation one way or the other if you believe in evolution or not.

Now the first man with a spirit residing in it was Adam and I do believe in that.

Yes I am a core LDS member. To me as science expands and grows so will the understanding of those who are in tune with spirit of how the gospel relates to science. We are taught that God uses natural laws to work his miracles. He just poseses all knowledge of science. Our most fantastical theories I would imagine don't even come close to the knowledge He has.

[Mobius]

Misshalfway, what "hook" are you referring to that that statement would let me off of? As your statement says: "It takes courage and humility to walk this kind of walk." It doesn't sound like being let off of anything.

And thanks for the reference utcowboy. I hope it helps.

[MobyMule]

I believe there will be many people who were not LDS in this life or for varying different circumstance were led to other paths for reasons only God knows who will be exalted. If they have been true to themselves and to what the spirit tells them they will be fine. Jesus will be more fair than we can probably imagine. Also that is what the millenium reign will be for imho. Alot of this stuff that we are not clear on will be clear because Christ will be here in the flesh to clarify on all things.