Why Do You Believe?

[shanstress70]

OK, could someone explain to me about the 144,000 people. I thought this was something the Jehovah's Witnesses made up. I'm not familiar with it. Granted, it sounds like the JST did away with it, but if someone is familiar with what it is talking about in the KJV, please let me know. Or if you know the verses, that would be nice so I can read it for myself.

Thanks!

[M.P.S.]

Jenda...I quit. Not because I'm starting to buy what you're saying but because you're starting to scare me. We've gotten so far off of the original topic and I just don't feel the need to continue this debate. You have given me no solid evidence that Christ life was predestined.

You're starting to get into the Apochrypha which I am in no way well versed and feel no reason to be, as of this time. Future revelation may prove wrong, but as for now, I leave on a mission in 10 days and I need to stick with the standard works and the "Missionary Reference Library."

Shanstress...I cann't recall the meaning of th 144,000...I think there is reference to it in the D&C. But I can't remember. I'll look into it, however, and get back to you. Unless someone beats me to it.

As for now...I am having an Open Hose Replacement Shin-Dig and I need to clean my house so that all my friends can come mess it up next week. If I don't reply promptly to anything else please know that it is because I have to put first things first right now.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by Jenda+Jun 11 2004, 02:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Jun 11 2004, 02:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Faerie@Jun 11 2004, 11:21 AM

Originally posted by -Jenda@Jun 11 2004, 12:04 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Faerie@Jun 11 2004, 10:52 AM

Of course we're forgetting the beginning...

You know that little part where God laid out His plan for us and asked for a Savior..

Christ volunteered...but He passed through the veil, thus forgetting his promise to the Father...once it was revealed to Him (in one way or another), He still had the free agency to either fulfill His promise to the Father, or reject it...but He was meant to be the Savior from the beginning of time...He predestined his own self by volunteering...

Christ did not pass through the veil. To believe otherwise is a very gnostic view.

Christ didn't forget everything when He was born? As MPS put it, the veil may have been thinner...but he WAS born of man, and passing through the veil of forgetfulness is part of the plan of salvation..I doubt as a 2 year old Christ was preaching to the people....lol

Christ was God. Are you suggesting that God can forget God? I would believe that that is someplace that even angel fear to tread.

If you read some of the "lost books of the Bible", some of them make it clear that Christ knew who he was from a very early age. Go to this site and scroll down to about the middle of the page and read the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. Then you will understand. http://home.epix.net/~miser17/Thomas.html

Jenda you're missing my point...Christ was brought down to our level *condescension*..He grew in Mary's womb and was born of blood...even if He knew who He was at an early age, He still passed through the veil that all of God's children go through upon birth...that does not take away His status as God...He didn't come out as a 30 year old man knowing the many intricacies of heaven and earth..he came out as a newborn, fresh from God and HUMAN...he may have been part-deity...but He still went through the veil...I don't see how stating that detracts at all from Christ's "status"....He may of had angels as Nursery leaders, but He still had to learn and receive revelation...

and I will point out, that this is MY view...this is not something I've ever heard discussed in church..it simply "makes sense" to me...that God laid out the Plan of Salvation in a very distinct and orderly way...and ALL of God's children who come to THIS earth come and go the same way...the only difference is, only ONE of God's children broke the bands of death and provided a way for us to return to our bodies...

[Jenda]

Originally posted by M.P.S.@Jun 11 2004, 12:10 PM

And FYI...the version of the Bible you have IS the KJV. The JST is added on in the back, the verses are not replaced. The JST is mearly a few verses, not a whole work. At least as far as I know. If you have a copy of the Bible that has been COMPLETELY redone by Joseph Smith I'd love to see it.

And, MPS, just for a FYI for you, the Bible I use is called the Inspired Version, and it has the Joseph Smith Translation integrated right into the text, so, no I don't have a KJV. (It is printed by the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.) The whole Bible was not tackled by Joseph Smith. He just changed the verses he was inspired to by God.

If you want to see what that looks like, go here. http://www.computercontrolsystems.com/Scri...ures/search.asp Genesis would give you a good view of what the IV looks like.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by M.P.S.@Jun 11 2004, 12:35 PM

You're starting to get into the Apochrypha which I am in no way well versed and feel no reason to be, as of this time. Future revelation may prove wrong, but as for now, I leave on a mission in 10 days and I need to stick with the standard works and the "Missionary Reference Library."

Good luck on your mission. Where are you going?

Just thought, though, that you might want to know what Joseph Smith said to the church about the Aprocrypha.

Section 91

1 VERILY, thus saith the Lord unto you concerning the Apocrypha—There are many things contained therein that are true, and it is mostly translated correctly;

2 There are many things contained therein that are not true, which are interpolations by the hands of men.

3 Verily, I say unto you, that it is not needful that the Apocrypha should be translated.

4 Therefore, whoso readeth it, let him understand, for the Spirit manifesteth truth;

5 And whoso is enlightened by the Spirit shall obtain benefit therefrom;

6 And whoso receiveth not by the Spirit, cannot be benefited. Therefore it is not needful that it should be translated. Amen.

[M.P.S.]

Jenda-

So you're RLDS...now I get it. As for that D&C, I read that before...and forgot...thanks for reminding me. An so's you know I'm going to California. You wouldn't happen to know where I could pick up a copy of the Apocrypha?...just for future reference.

Sarah K-

Your view is what I've been taught in institute classes. Rock on.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by M.P.S.@Jun 11 2004, 05:03 PM

Sarah K-

Your view is what I've been taught in institute classes. Rock on.

awww...I'm glad to know that!! Thanks!

Miss u on ur mish

[Jenda]

Originally posted by M.P.S.@Jun 11 2004, 02:03 PM

Jenda-

So you're RLDS...now I get it. As for that D&C, I read that before...and forgot...thanks for reminding me. An so's you know I'm going to California. You wouldn't happen to know where I could pick up a copy of the Apocrypha?...just for future reference.

I have a copy of the Apocrypha in the middle of the NRSV that I have (which I bought just to get the apocrypha.)

[Traveler]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 9 2004, 10:35 AM

I hope no one thinks I'm trying to be anti, because I'm not. I would have asked this question even when I was an active member. Maureen posted a link to a page with various splinter groups of the LDS church and it made me wonder.

To those of you who were born into the LDS church: Do you think you would have joined if it wasn't just 'a given' that you were going to be a member because your family was?

And what makes people believe that Joseph Smith translated the gold plates, but not believe in others who have claimed to be a prophet? What I mean is, if you're going to believe that, what keeps you from believing that James Strang also translated gold plates? (Sorry, but that's the best example I could come up with in a short time.)

Once again, I have no ulterior motives with this question. It could actually be a testimony-strengthening question, I believe.

A response from a 5th generation LDS. I believe because of manifestations of the spirit concerning the fall - the G-d head - the atonement - and the resurrection. I have yet to find a more complete fath that embraces all truth and provides a vessel to hold all of it - including science and yet still inspires more devotion and service to G-d and our fellow man.

The Traveler

[M.P.S.]

Originally posted by Traveler@Jun 11 2004, 06:10 PM

...inspires more devotion and service to G-d and our fellow man.

Elder John A. Widtsoe said:

"We do not quarrel with with the symbol G-o-d because it is not very beautiful..."

God is merely a word...true it represents someone very sacred and powerful, but it is reprersented by man made symbols. So feel free to spell it out. We're not Jewish.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by shanstress70@Jun 11 2004, 12:23 PM

OK, could someone explain to me about the 144,000 people. I thought this was something the Jehovah's Witnesses made up. I'm not familiar with it. Granted, it sounds like the JST did away with it, but if someone is familiar with what it is talking about in the KJV, please let me know. Or if you know the verses, that would be nice so I can read it for myself.

Thanks!

The 144,000 .... reference:

THE REVELATION

OF ST JOHN THE DIVINE

CHAPTER 7

John also sees in the sixth seal: The restoration of the gospel foreseen; the sealing of the 144,000; and the hosts of the exalted from all nations.

1 AND after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the bseal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of aJoseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four abeasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the fLamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

The explanation given from the Lord to Joseph Smith is in D&C 77.

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by M.P.S.@Jun 11 2004, 04:03 PM

Sarah K-

Your view is what I've been taught in institute classes. Rock on.

Sorry, but who is Sarah K? Am I missing something?

[shanstress70]

Thanks, Starsky! I will do some reading up.

[Faerie]

Originally posted by shanstress70+Jun 11 2004, 09:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (shanstress70 @ Jun 11 2004, 09:50 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--M.P.S.@Jun 11 2004, 04:03 PM

Sarah K-

Your view is what I've been taught in institute classes. Rock on.

Sorry, but who is Sarah K? Am I missing something?

moi :)

[Snow]

Why Do You Believe?

I do it for the free cheese.

[Rodney]

Why Do You (not me) Believe?

Because the carrots seem to have risen in the green jello when you flip the mold over?

[shanstress70]

Originally posted by Rodney@Jun 12 2004, 05:40 AM

Why Do You (not me) Believe?

Because the carrots seem to have risen in the green jello when you flip the mold over?

DeeLISH!

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Snow@Jun 11 2004, 09:38 PM

Why Do You Believe?

I do it for the free cheese.

<span style=\'font-family:Geneva\'>hahaha.....rofl