The Third That Went Astray

[Ray]

Is it not possible that in another system with another deity that perhaps one-half might fall away under that system?

I think that’s possible. I don’t think it’s an eternal fact that “1/3” will always fall away.

Is it not possible that ALL will abuse their free agency and rebel?

All? I don’t think so. We’re talking about billions and billions of people, so the odds that all of them will rebel are pretty slim.

Or that none will?

None at all? I don’t think this would likely happen either.

Couldn't it be possible that in some system the pre-existent spirits will all be happy and content with allowing the firstborn to be the Messiah and everyone keep their free will- so that no one rebels?

Might near impossible, I’d say. Regardless of what you’ve heard, all people are not equal.

The paradox lies in that if NO one rebels- there is no Messiah! It is an interesting thought that they were planning the salvation from the work of the evil one before an evil one existed. Even more interesting that this planning was the direct CAUSE of the fall that would necessitate a Messiah.

I think our heavenly Father started planning early because He knew each and every one of His children. Some would rebel, some would not, and He knew that. Haven’t you ever noticed some people who actually enjoy doing what is right? And some other people who enjoy being wicked? And some other people who do whatever it takes just to get what they want?

[Nicodemus]

Ray this gets us into an interesting question:

If God can foresee our actions, why does He then go through with actions that He foresees will end in failure? If He foreknows that some will reject the gospel, why does he send the Holy Spirit to try and convert them?

[Traveler]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jun 11 2004, 11:12 PM

I'm curious. Can the third that chose Satan's plan repent from their mistake of siding with him and warring with the remaining spirits in the pre-existance? Or does that not count as one mistake.

If you knew that you really had no chance of coming back to live with Heavenly Father, would you choose the plan that would allow you to come back, no matter what? Would you choose Satan's plan if it meant that you'd have to spend your entire life doing what you were told in order to come back or would you choose to be free to do what you want even though you knew that your actions would prevent you from coming back?

Are the third that chose Satan damned for eternity?

I have not had time to read all the post so I don't know if some points were covered are not.

First I would like to explain that ancient Hebrew did not understand fractions. What I am attempting to say is that those that followed Satan were not equal to 1/3 of all our Father's spirits. What the one third means is that the society of heaven was divided 3 ways. There was in the society three choices. If the 3 parts were the same size is not understood to ancient Hebrews. Satan's plan was one of the choices. We know that the Father's plan that was backed by Jesus was one of the other choices. The final choice is left to some speculation. I would point out that there are 3 degrees or glories of heaven - I submit that this is no coincidence.

Second. There is an assumption of some ignorance. In the light of heaven there was no ignorance. Those that sided with Satan declared war against G-d in full knowledge that it would cost them eternal life with G-d.

Third. The war is not over. The battle for heaven has been lost but the war for the souls of mankind continues.

The third notion is the most telling part of this war. In this we learn that the actual cause of the war had to do with the souls of man. Without the truth of the restoration most religions would have you think that Satan and his legions risked it all in a hopeless war to keep man from being washed clean of sin. But man was created clean without sin in Eden to begin with. Why would Satan care if man was washed clean of sin or not? Can we really think Satan so stupid to wage war over that?

We also know that the sin of Satan is selfishness and pride. This lets us know that he and his followers wanted something and they wanted it for themselves and had no intension of sharing. G-d on the other hand is neither selfish nor prideful. So why is mankind such a focal point for the plan of G-d and the plan of Satan? Because Satan and his followers, in their pride, wanted to ascend to the highest of heaven and have that for themselves alone. They wanted to deny repentance and make heaven exclusive. And that is their beginning of sin that they will not let go.

Alma tells us we must be striped of our pride. The pride that makes us think we are better and deserve more than someone else. Can Satan and his legions repent? This question is completely wrong - the real question we should ask ourselves is can we repent and be striped of pride?

The Traveler

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 17 2004, 07:25 PM

Ray this gets us into an interesting question:

If God can foresee our actions, why does He then go through with actions that He foresees will end in failure?  If He foreknows that some will reject the gospel, why does he send the Holy Spirit to try and convert them?

I don't think that God forsees our actions, but I do think that, because He knows us, he can predict pretty well what decisions we will make. However, I think there are two possibilities here. First, God wants us all to make the choice to love and follow Him, but because of our agency, He can't force us to do so, but He will forever give us the opportunity (by placing the right situations and the right people to help us) to make that choice, even if it is not within our personality to do so. Second, God is a God of miracles, and He can cause a miracle to happen that might change how we look at things and cause us to change our decision-making process so that we do make that choice. I think that God uses both means together frequently.

[Jenda]

Ray, I really appreciate your posts. It puts a new perspective on some choices/actions/decisions I have made regarding how I see my own personal theology regarding repentence. Gives me something to ponder.

Thanks. :)

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 17 2004, 04:13 PM

I have another question.

In this world, Elohim received His exaltation and created us and one-third of us fell away by free agency.

Is it not possible that in another system with another deity that perhaps one-half might fall away under that system?

Is it not possible that ALL will abuse their free agency and rebel?  Or that none will?  Couldn't it be possible that in some system the pre-existant spirits will all be happy and content with allowing the firstborn to be the Messiah and everyone keep their free will- so that no one rebels?  I was slightly curious about this.

The paradox lies in that if NO one rebels- there is no Messiah!  It is an interesting thought that they were planning the salvation from the work of the evil one before an evil one existed.  Even more interesting that this planning was the direct CAUSE of the fall that would necessitate a Messiah.

Nicodemos,

Do you understand that without darkness, there is no light...or at least no comprehension of what light is?

Evil is inherent in good....or there is no good.

So when you say that they planned for evil....indeed they did....because if there were no evil, there would be no good.

When you try to define these concepts in a vacuum of only light or only good, or only dark or only evil....you can't do it without some reference or contrast to their opposites....

Darkness is the absence of light. Evil is the absense of good. Good is the absense of evil. Light is the absense of darkness.

You must understand they are a compound in one....light/dark. Good/evil. They both must exist or neither exists...

Can there be a choice or free will to make a choice unless there is something to choose from? If there is only good...what choice is there? where is the free will in this?

Our free agency comes from the fact that there is oposition in all things....it is necessary....for the existence of anything....

D&C 93:30 All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence.

[Guest Starsky]

Originally posted by Arcobaleno Nero@Jun 17 2004, 03:43 PM

My thoughts...

IF the 1/3 that fell with Satan and "kept not their fist estate" can repent and eventually make it to the Celestial Kingdom then it stands to reason that those of us here (the 2/3's that kept their first estate) can REJECT the plan of salvation and go to where ever {lesser degrees of glory or "outer darkness"} and at a later date repent and go to Heaven at our own convenience.  Thus making the whole "plan" one eternal joke, and the scriptures nothing more than a book of good ieas.

I do not believe it is anywhere near possible for those who kept not their fist estate to ever recieve any degree of glory.

And before I knew LDS doctrine I would say they would never go to Heaven.

You have read the D&C 88 where it explains that they only get the glory which they were willing to receive....which was none....zero.....

32 And they who remain shall also be quickened; nevertheless, they shall return again to their own place, to enjoy that which they are willing to receive, because they were not willing to enjoy that which they might have received.

33 For what doth it profit a man if a gift is bestowed upon him, and he receive not the gift? Behold, he rejoices not in that which is given unto him, neither rejoices in him who is the giver of the gift.

Also....Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

[DisRuptive1]

Originally posted by Nicodemus@Jun 17 2004, 07:25 PM

If He foreknows that some will reject the gospel, why does he send the Holy Spirit to try and convert them?

Because he is a good father. He is just like any other father who tells his son not to fornicate but gives him a condom, just in case. Bad analogy, but fitting none the less. Heavenly Father sends the Holy Spirit so that it then becomes their decision to accept and listen or not to. Heavenly Father does everything in his power but leaves his children with their agency. God paved the road; it's up to us to use it or not. He's just being a good father.

[Nicodemus]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1+Jun 17 2004, 11:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DisRuptive1 @ Jun 17 2004, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Nicodemus@Jun 17 2004, 07:25 PM

If He foreknows that some will reject the gospel, why does he send the Holy Spirit to try and convert them?

Because he is a good father. He is just like any other father who tells his son not to fornicate but gives him a condom, just in case. Bad analogy, but fitting none the less. Heavenly Father sends the Holy Spirit so that it then becomes their decision to accept and listen or not to. Heavenly Father does everything in his power but leaves his children with their agency. God paved the road; it's up to us to use it or not. He's just being a good father.

Yes, but you see there is no just in case. He knows. There is no "just in case." If He knows they will reject Him, why bother with them?

This is part of the basis for many Calvinistic doctrines. If God knows that these people will reject the Holy Spirit, He SEES it happening, why would He set out to accomplish something He sees failing? Does that not seem to make Him seem incompetent and somewhat vain?

The condom analogy doesn't work because there is no just in case. And are we allowed to say that here?

Jk, I understand where you're coming from.

[DisRuptive1]

Also Heavenly Father, by doing this, is setting an example for what he would want us to do. Put yourself in Heavenly Father's shoes (or sandal's).

Another "out there" analogy: If your child was mentally retarded and had no opportunity in life to do anything other than menial work like being a janitor or what not, would you still send them to school? Would you still try to teach them things even though they'll require help throughout their lives and won't be able to be kept alone?

[Setheus]

Originally posted by DisRuptive1@Jun 17 2004, 10:47 PM

Because he is a good father. He is just like any other father who tells his son not to fornicate but gives him a condom, just in case. Bad analogy, but fitting none the less. Heavenly Father sends the Holy Spirit so that it then becomes their decision to accept and listen or not to. Heavenly Father does everything in his power but leaves his children with their agency. God paved the road; it's up to us to use it or not. He's just being a good father.

That is the DUMBEST thing I have ever heard. Ok, not really, but it is in the top 10.

Lets pretend I am that kid and you are my dad. You give me "the talk" and say that fornication is a sin, it is bad, you tell me all the bad things that can come of it etc etc...then you hand me a condom (just in case)

After all that hot air you just crammed down my throat you have in a single move made it all null and void.

By handing me a condom you just said "Son, you are too stupid to be good and I don't think you are really smart enough to wait till marriage and on top of that I DON"T REALLY TRUST YOU.

Thanks "DAD!"