Create New Worlds?

[vinny15]

I don't thing Earth is the glory. Shadows-but not the real thing.

I believe that the glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. I said nothing about earth did I?

God glories in his children returning so that we can be like him one day. Every child wants to be like a caring father. Notice I said caring ( I saw that one coming )

[Dr T]

:) I saw that. We will never be a god so in that sense, God has no equal. I'm not talking about "equal" in development or ability, etc. God is God and we are human. We are made in his image but that's as far as that goes.

[CrimsonKairos]

Here we go again.

[the Ogre]

By the way, why would anyone in their right mind want to create a "world" that could go thru what this one has? What are YOUR motivations? I'm sure there are some worthy ones. What are they?

According to mormon doctrine, this is supposed to be the goal of "good" LDSers. And I recognize that some of you are going to say that your DON'T have to have this goal, and you can still be in the celestial. If you don't make worlds, what are you supposed to do?

1. Having kids is such fun

2. Maybe the Home teaching stats will be better the next time around

3. I want everyone to have purple skin, or maybe periwinkle

4. This Earth is just too pretentious

5. Play lots of Scrabble (answer to last question)

6. I want to help people invent deodorant before the wheel

7. BYU could be the National Champs more often that way

8. Money would grow on trees

9. Find out why flies really exist

10. Spent more time on the Internet (also answer to the last question)

[vinny15]

:) I saw that. We will never be a god so in that sense, God has no equal. I'm not talking about "equal" in development or ability, etc. God is God and we are human. We are made in his image but that's as far as that goes.

Thats a personal belief that I would like to see biblical support for.

Now as for people suceeding God.... That will never happen. No matter what happens we will hold christ and God in a reverence because they were the ones that freed us in a sense.

Would it make sense that God would go through all the trouble to make us mindless worshiping robots.

I doubt it.

Did Christ not refer to men as Gods and did Genesis not mention gods plural?

For we can receive glorious resurrected bodies (Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:40-45), we can become "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18), we can "put on the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4-10), and we can become "like him" (1 John 3:2). Indeed, Christ even went so far at to say, "Ye are gods" (John 10:34), in reference to the divine potential of human beings. While He and the Father are the one true God, whom we will always worship, He does want us to become more like the Father (Matt. 5:48)

We are meant for more than you give credit Dr.T. Why is it such a hard doctrine.

Dr. T. If your a prophet than Ill agrre with you, or if you have doctrinal basis, but not opinion.

[Dr T]

Those are referring to being heaven bound not becoming define. CK, you are right. I have a very hard time with the belief that we can become a god. God says there are "no others." The idea, again, that it's talking about "beings that are worshiped" is not what that means. It's clear that there are no others. Vinny, when you quote "gods" that is right "gods" not Gods. There are many false gods as I've posted here in the past. There is only one true God.

[valkator]

Dr. T - The key to bridging the gap in understanding lies, I think, in coming to an understanding of the distinction between the Transcendent and Immanent realities - and who/what 'God' is. In a sense, this 'distinction' is not very sharp - but having the two in mind helps to see that we are all, conscious of it or not, BOTH of these things. The 'traditional' view of 'God' in unrestored Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is that God is completely transcendent and separate from creation. The only 'immanence' that is allowed for is:

1. Christ is the only immanent manifestation of the Father in unrestored Christianity.

2. The Jewish people as a whole are the only immanent manifestation of God in Judaism.

3. God is solely Transcendent in Islam and no immanent manifestation is allowed for at all.

You see, the issue here isn't whether the ultimate Source (God in the above equations) is Transcendent and 'beyond' creation, but in what sense is this Source also immanent within and through creation and in what 'degrees' as we look at the 'levels' of creation. I'm not LDS and am not well-versed in the theology and doctrine, but I'd like to use an analogy that, I think, highlights the LDS understanding of Transcendence and Immanence. It's one that I see and resonate with:

When you 'dream', you have the ability to be lucid within your dreams. What does this mean? It means that you have the ability to enter into, direct, and shape everything that happens within your dreams. You can take on multiple 'forms' within it -- see things from many different perspectives -- and still maintain a unitary viewpoint from the perspective that 'you' are the one dreaming through all of what you do while in that state. This, I think, points out a very good way to see 'God' at work within creation, itself.

Now, we know that there are many levels within creation - each with different 'levels' of lucid awareness based on many different factors; Humans are more 'aware' than animals, and so on. Now, if humans are the creation of a more lucid being/species - Heavenly Father - head of the elohim - and he is called 'God' because He has a more lucid awareness of Who He Is within the 'dream' - then it makes perfect sense for Him to communicate this same knowledge to the 'children' he has created -- adjusted for the 'level of lucidity' that these children have, given their Fall. Now, the question arises, why not just 'worship' and 'honor' the Source, itself? I mean, isn't the Source transcendent from creation/the dream? Isn't Heavenly Father ALSO a 'son' of this Source? Yes! -- but -- the Source is IMMANENT at the exact same time through all of us. Heavenly Father isn't 'closer' in material terms to the Source than we are (matter is transient and limited to the Dream, itself), but He is more AWARE of who He is. This is why He calls us to awaken to our own Godhood and has provided the 'path' so that we may do so. We honor Him as our Father and as 'God' and seek to awaken (reawaken) to our True nature that He has tried to show us - that we are God(s) also. However, 'awaken' doesn't simply mean that we 'exit the Dream' because we 'unite with the transcendent' that is beyond us. It means that we lucidly create the Dream, itself -- we continue the 'eternal progression' of creation, itself - because We (the Source) are Immanent AND Transcendent. You can attempt to unite with the Transcendent as if its something removed from yourself (and many try to do this), but do you know what happens then? You destroy yourself because you drift toward non-Being. You can attempt to unite everyone else with the Transcendent as if its something separate from them (almost ALL religions teach this), too -- and you know what happens? You destroy them as well as yourself - because you have lost lucidity and are seeking to 'wake up' by 'dieing' - also a drift to non-Being. How can one unite with what one already IS?

So, now things come down to whether or not we can see the lucid reality for what it is -- see the Heavenly Father for who He is -- and whether or not we can begin to see who WE are - in relation to Heavenly Father and everything else. This is what 'becoming gods' is about -- not some 'power trip' so that we can rule over anyone or anything else...or claim 'we are gods' as if this sets us apart from anyone else who ALSO have the same potential. It makes you wonder who the 'god' is that speaks through Judaism, Islam, and unrestored Christianity...?

[vinny15]

Those are referring to being heaven bound not becoming define. CK, you are right. I have a very hard time with the belief that we can become a god. God says there are "no others." The idea, again, that it's talking about "beings that are worshiped" is not what that means. It's clear that there are no others. Vinny, when you quote "gods" that is right "gods" not Gods. There are many false gods as I've posted here in the past. There is only one true God.

Why would he speak of false gods during the genesis, but also in 1corintheans8 5-6

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

He speaks of them whether in heaven or in earth, but he says all we have to worry about is him and his son.

And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.(Romans 8:14-18),

So we are joint heirs with christ and christ is called god with a little "g" at times and we are eventual heirs of God, but never to pass him in glory.

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.(1 John 3:2).

So we shall be like him. Makes him being our father.

Traditions have proved to be wrong through out history and you all know it. Change the scriptures around all you want to fit in a comfort zone, but sooner or later we are all gona have to face the music.

[Dr T]

Thank you Vinny,

I'm going to be driving all day but I wanted to respond before I got on the road. It's not about "changing scripture" as you've been taught sir. Since you love scriptures, as you said, then take the time to pray and really read what is laid out in the whole of scriptures. Like this verse:

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

it says "are called gods" just like we have today. Some people put their home up as god, their children, etc. Just because they are called god or treated as such, that does not make them god.

When you say Jesus was called "god" with a lower case g-that is very interesting. Can you give me a reference? I'd love to look into that. I've never read that because he is God with a G.

Becoming heirs, again, is receiving his pardon of our sins because of Jesus and being able to dwell with him in heaven. The ability to see him as he is and being like him is not related to becoming a god but separating our body here on earth. We will see him because of Jesus allowing up to enter his presence, something we could not do while sinful. That's all that means. Keep studying it and see what it all means put together not a spin on what is clearly there sir. God said he knows of no other gods. There are no other Gods. That does not mean, "That you should worship" it mean "NO God's." God is the only true God. All others are no. I'll talk to you later Vinny. Have a great day.

[vinny15]

Thank you Vinny,

I'm going to be driving all day but I wanted to respond before I got on the road. It's not about "changing scripture" as you've been taught sir. Since you love scriptures, as you said, then take the time to pray and really read what is laid out in the whole of scriptures. Like this verse:

5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

it says "are called gods" just like we have today. Some people put their home up as god, their children, etc. Just because they are called god or treated as such, that does not make them god.

When you say Jesus was called "god" with a lower case g-that is very interesting. Can you give me a reference? I'd love to look into that. I've never read that because he is God with a G.

Becoming heirs, again, is receiving his pardon of our sins because of Jesus and being able to dwell with him in heaven. The ability to see him as he is and being like him is not related to becoming a god but separating our body here on earth. We will see him because of Jesus allowing up to enter his presence, something we could not do while sinful. That's all that means. Keep studying it and see what it all means put together not a spin on what is clearly there sir. God said he knows of no other gods. There are no other Gods. That does not mean, "That you should worship" it mean "NO God's." God is the only true God. All others are no. I'll talk to you later Vinny. Have a great day.

I have a feeling we will have to agree to disagree.

One of the scriptures I gave said that we will be heirs of god and joint heirs with christ. That means that we will recieve the same glory as christ.

I have prayed about it. but tell me why it says "whether in heaven or in earth" It also says "for there BE gods many and lords many"

So there are Gods and lords

Please dont get me wrong I know my god is my god and my christ is my christ and I dont believe in any other gods. THough I know there are others

Hence the scripture, "God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods....I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High." Psalms (82:1,6)

[Traveler]

By the way, why would anyone in their right mind want to create a "world" that could go thru what this one has? What are YOUR motivations? I'm sure there are some worthy ones. What are they?

According to mormon doctrine, this is supposed to be the goal of "good" LDSers. And I recognize that some of you are going to say that your DON'T have to have this goal, and you can still be in the celestial. If you don't make worlds, what are you supposed to do?

Why is it that so many think that it is creation that defines G-d. In other words - G-d was not G-d until he decided to become a creator?

The Traveler

[CrimsonKairos]

Not to mention, I was unaware that the LDS Church taught its members that the highest aspiration in eternity is to be able to create a planet.

[vinny15]

Its not the highest aspiration. That is to become like God.

[Guest Username-Removed]

Not to mention, I was unaware that the LDS Church taught its members that the highest aspiration in eternity is to be able to create a planet.

Whatever it takes to "bring to pass the imortality and eternal life of mankind". Isnt it nice that our Heavanly Father wants us to succeed? Besides, all that are here, chose to come, even you.

I have had many trials in my life, and I am proud that I have had them. It is true, I dont want anymore than nessesary and I dont seek them out. But those trials have allowed to me learn compassion, faith, and have a stronger belief that Christ Lives.

Without my experiences on earth, I dont think I could have learned all the things I have as quickly as I have. This existance is only temporary, learn all you can now!

[Dr T]

Thank you Vinny.

The Hebrew word for "gods" is also translated "judges," because a judge has authority over a person's destiny. God will judge the judges. Pastor Chuck Smith

Basically God trumps all other councils, princes, courts, etc. He is the ruler of rulers. That's all.

[vinny15]

Thank you Vinny.

The Hebrew word for "gods" is also translated "judges," because a judge has authority over a person's destiny. God will judge the judges. Pastor Chuck Smith

Basically God trumps all other councils, princes, courts, etc. He is the ruler of rulers. That's all.

Am I supposed to trust pastor chuck. Anyways. You answer one of my scriptures and leave the rest out.

I dont think you are looking for the truth I think that you want it to be what you think. Im trying not to be harch, but like I said the music will be faced.

[Dr T]

Hey Brother Vinny,

That's just the thing. I know the truth as laid out by God not someone else leading us away in subtle ways. That is what I've come to and why I've been laying out what it really means. I only addressed one verse. Look above, I addressed them for you sir. That is the thing, "I'm supposed to believe X" is something you will always say if it is not a "prophet" or LDS leader. You ultimately come you your own opinion, just like me, and we both claim that it has been made manifest by God. You are correct, we will all face the music. I'm just happy where I stand. If you are correct, I'm OK. If I'm correct, you are in a heap of trouble sir.

[vinny15]

Hey Brother Vinny,

That's just the thing. I know the truth as laid out by God not someone else leading us away in subtle ways. That is what I've come to and why I've been laying out what it really means. I only addressed one verse. Look above, I addressed them for you sir. That is the thing, "I'm supposed to believe X" is something you will always say if it is not a "prophet" or LDS leader. You ultimately come you your own opinion, just like me, and we both claim that it has been made manifest by God. You are correct, we will all face the music. I'm just happy where I stand. If you are correct, I'm OK. If I'm correct, you are in a heap of trouble sir.

I would be in a heap of trouble if Im wrong.

You didnt address all my verse. What about "heirs of god and joint heirs with christ"

I dont believe that God put us here so we can all find different opinions.

I know that I will become like god if I do what is right. I know that if your wrong you will be just fine, but if Im wrong than I will be hurtin bad.

But god has given me a good feeling about what I believe. I feel the spirit of god everytime I read the bible and the BoM.

Do you think the LDS church is "subtle"? not by a long shot. Ive heard every anti mormon argument and I dont ignore them I fact them head on because I know that God wont leave me hanging. I have an answer for everything. All anti mormons try to do is remake old shoes.

Ive given you many verses claiming the truth, but you wont have any of it. And thats ok. I didnt mean to offend I meant to critique.

[Dr T]

You didnt address all my verse. What about "heirs of god and joint heirs with christ"

I dont believe that God put us here so we can all find different opinions.

I know that I will become like god if I do what is right. I know that if your wrong you will be just fine, but if Im wrong than I will be hurtin bad.

But god has given me a good feeling about what I believe. I feel the spirit of god everytime I read the bible and the BoM.

Do you think the LDS church is "subtle"? not by a long shot. Ive heard every anti mormon argument and I dont ignore them I fact them head on because I know that God wont leave me hanging. I have an answer for everything. All anti mormons try to do is remake old shoes.

Ive given you many verses claiming the truth, but you wont have any of it. And thats ok. I didnt mean to offend I meant to critique.

Yes sir. Like I said, being joint heirs is about being able to spend eternity with God.

I agree. The path to God is narrow and all "different opinions" do not produce salvation. There is only one way. Jesus.

Having a good feeling does not in itself mean it is from God sir. Drugs and self-delusions for example produce the same things and that does not make them from God. Again, I am in the same boat. We come to a cliff and then take a leap of faith that we are correct. I'm basing my beliefs on bible reading and prayer while you have other scriptures adding to the Bible. I didn't mean to offend either brother. We are able to talk about or differences and discussion of religious beliefs often come with intense feelings. It is like a love affair and we want to defend our "mate" if someone is attaching them. I understand that. We also know that the true Jesus is offensive to nonbelievers. I think LDS might be subtle in that there is enough Biblical things and changes that have developed extrabiblically that are enough different that they are not the same as Christianity. I think we can both lay our our beliefs and am grateful for the opportunity as I enjoy being here and talking to you all, in spite of our differences in belief.

[vinny15]

The thing is you have no idea what the feeling is. I remember you talking about needing proof in a thread.

I know you are sincere, but if you need proof than your in trouble. It comes from gods spirit.

Please dont compare the spirit to drugs. If you have ever fealt it you will know that it lasts. Drugs are unnatural uses of chemicals and we need more and more to get the same feeling.

The spirit and drugs are two different feelings. The spirit makes you feel truth drugs make you feel somethig else entirely and it doesnt last.

Let me ask. How do you get answers to your prayers?

[Dr T]

That was also an example. I am very sincere, as you are. People can be sincerely wrong and wrong in their sincerity. Like I said, feelings are passing emotion. We can go as far as we can then we take the leap of faith.

[vinny15]

Yep :)

[Traveler]

That was also an example. I am very sincere, as you are. People can be sincerely wrong and wrong in their sincerity. Like I said, feelings are passing emotion. We can go as far as we can then we take the leap of faith.

I am not sure what you are saying - It is interesting that every one thinks that what they think is right but few teach that what they do is right. If you are not the example of what you say is right - it is my belief that you damn your self as your star witness against yourself.

One thing of which I am sure - G-d will condemn us as harshly as we condemn others - by his word he warned us that as we judge we shall be judged.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hi Traveler,

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking. God will be the judge no matter what with perfection. He will judge us all. I'm developing a firm belief system and he will judge me on my belief in Jesus.

[vinny15]

All you can do is hope I guess.

The only way to know truth is by what the spirit tells you.

:)