The Nature of God

[skalenfehl]

and regarding that verse...we can start a whole other thread about that too

Oh, ok. I'll need to reread the question(s). Well, I'm off to work.

[Elgama]

God is not responsible for what people do in his name. A look at your own church's history should show you that.

Regarding eternal fate, I don't know, nobody does. All I can say is that I serve a loving, Just, merciful, righteous God and all his judgements are pure.

I have never claimed my faith to perfect just the best :) My point is those people that did those things did it interpreting the Bible their way, reading the same verses you did, often very learned good men doing their best, I am not sure but I can't think of any shameful episode in my faith that came from misinterpretation of scripture (but I could be wrong lol)

I think you interpret hostility in posts which is really just a lack of understanding, its no difference than your posts to me where you were amazed and frustrated because I didn't think the way you did and couldn't see it, I was not offended because I have encountered the Christian reaction to me before, dealing with Mormons is new to you and we truly are a peculiar people (often stark raving bonkers as well lol) - I personally do not understand how you can claim Christians do not interpret the Godhead scriptures differently... I find it very interesting that the Oxford Companion to the Bible does not even cover the trinity, it does however discuss the different names of God and is pretty comprehensive . I can name about 3 different forms of the trinity off the top of my head, there is the Barthian Model, the Augustian Model, Modalism. There are distinctions between Roman Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox churches - then there are several non trinitarian (they are called Unitarian but that has taken on a new form) that looking at the buildings are at least 150 years older than the LDS church. And even more Christians that feel it isn't all important they all got their teachings from the Bible.

Over the ten years searching for my baptism I visited and seriously investigated over 31 Christian Churches all I got was confused and different answers all coming from the Bible. I think the whole of 1 Corinthians 14 is coming to mind and the temptation to quote it is very difficult but the works of Paul do not gel with the idea of the whole of Christianity being one in Faith and one in baptism etc I do not see the body of Christ working together,

-Charley

[Dr T]

Man; go away for a couple of days and you guys fly through pages of another thread! You are type fast :)

[Misshalfway]

Xan,

I am trying to be a humble observer of this conversation but....

I just wanted to jump in here and ask you if there was any possibility that you could believe that we pray to the same God, even though we may understand Him differently?

[xanmad33]

I have never claimed my faith to perfect just the best :) My point is those people that did those things did it interpreting the Bible their way, reading the same verses you did, often very learned good men doing their best, I am not sure but I can't think of any shameful episode in my faith that came from misinterpretation of scripture (but I could be wrong lol)

I think you interpret hostility in posts which is really just a lack of understanding, its no difference than your posts to me where you were amazed and frustrated because I didn't think the way you did and couldn't see it, I was not offended because I have encountered the Christian reaction to me before,

Elgama, I don't feel hostility in those posts

There have been a couple though that yes, I have felt very real hosility from

dealing with Mormons is new to you and we truly are a peculiar people (often stark raving bonkers as well lol) - I personally do not understand how you can claim Christians do not interpret the Godhead scriptures differently

I never claimed that Christians don't interpret the godhead differently, my claim was that Christianity worships one God.

... I find it very interesting that the Oxford Companion to the Bible does not even cover the trinity, it does however discuss the different names of God and is pretty comprehensive . I can name about 3 different forms of the trinity off the top of my head, there is the Barthian Model, the Augustian Model, Modalism. There are distinctions between Roman Catholic, Anglican and Orthodox churches - then there are several non trinitarian (they are called Unitarian but that has taken on a new form) that looking at the buildings are at least 150 years older than the LDS church. And even more Christians that feel it isn't all important they all got their teachings from the Bible.

Over the ten years searching for my baptism I visited and seriously investigated over 31 Christian Churches all I got was confused and different answers all coming from the Bible. I think the whole of 1 Corinthians 14 is coming to mind and the temptation to quote it is very difficult but the works of Paul do not gel with the idea of the whole of Christianity being one in Faith and one in baptism etc I do not see the body of Christ working together,

-Charley

I cannot speak for every "Christian", it's a pretty loose term these days. Just as Momon is... Aren't there more than 100 different organizations that lay claim to being part of the Latter Day Saint movement?

[xanmad33]

Xan,

I am trying to be a humble observer of this conversation but....

I just wanted to jump in here and ask you if there was any possibility that you could believe that we pray to the same God, even though we may understand Him differently?

Well Misshalfway, I started this thread to get that answer myself

I am trying to understand who your God is....There have been a few conflicting statements, and I'm just not all the way sure yet, but that's my personaly thoughts, and thats one reason I'm here :)

[WillowTheWhisp]

YOUR ACCUSATION IS ABOVE>>>>

I'm sorry, I did actually overlook that because I thought you were referring to my earlier posts. I suppose I do come across as defensive of what I believe and defensive of the church I belong to when it seems to be misrepresented, Your posts have come across to me as critical of our beliefs, especially when you say that we pray to a false God. That does seem to be accusatory of sincere and genuine people who believe and trust in the true God of the Bible and pray to him devoutly, who believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ and are deeply grateful for his atoning sacrifice. It hurts us to be told that we worship a false God and that we are not Christians. It does feel like an attack on our beliefs. Would you be hurt and feel your beliefs were being attacked if I told you you prayed to a false God?

I never said they did did I?

No, but you asked if that was what we believed would happen to you if you did not join the LDS church.

what about the verse in the Bible that assures you of your salvation?

You are not sure of it?

If I never become Mormon, will I go to hell?

I am merely letting you know that we don't believe that. In fact we don't do the whole "damned to hell" thing which a lot of other churches seem to do. What we believe is in different degrees of glory. To those who believe in and aim for the Celestial Kingdom then that glory could be theirs. For those who do not believe in it and do not seek for it but only believe in and seek for Terrestrial Glory than that will be their reward. They may be delighted and happy with that reward. They may not want more. Not all LDS will achieve the highest glory, but we aim for it, although acknowledging our shortcomings and our need for repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ.

Have you read "The Last Battle" by C S Lewis? I see it rather like that - further up and further in. The dwarfs stopped because they thought that was all there was.

[xanmad33]

I'm sorry, I did actually overlook that because I thought you were referring to my earlier posts. I suppose I do come across as defensive of what I believe and defensive of the church I belong to when it seems to be misrepresented, Your posts have come across to me as critical of our beliefs, especially when you say that we pray to a false God. That does seem to be accusatory of sincere and genuine people who believe and trust in the true God of the Bible and pray to him devoutly, who believe in the saving grace of Jesus Christ and are deeply grateful for his atoning sacrifice. It hurts us to be told that we worship a false God and that we are not Christians. It does feel like an attack on our beliefs. Would you be hurt and feel your beliefs were being attacked if I told you you prayed to a false God?

That is an avenue I have explored here and is completely relevant of a question. I never said unequivically you do or you don't.....I simply asked a few questions that are a logical argument if the Bible is true.

No, but you asked if that was what we believed would happen to you if you did not join the LDS church.

Yes, I did ask that, and I was completely interested in the answer. It was not a leading question if that's what you are insinuating.

I am merely letting you know that we don't believe that. In fact we don't do the whole "damned to hell" thing which a lot of other churches seem to do. What we believe is in different degrees of glory. To those who believe in and aim for the Celestial Kingdom then that glory could be theirs. For those who do not believe in it and do not seek for it but only believe in and seek for Terrestrial Glory than that will be their reward. They may be delighted and happy with that reward. They may not want more. Not all LDS will achieve the highest glory, but we aim for it, although acknowledging our shortcomings and our need for repentance and the atonement of Jesus Christ.

I never said you said otherwise

[WillowTheWhisp]

Yes, I did ask that, and I was completely interested in the answer. It was not a leading question if that's what you are insinuating.

I am not insinuating anything.

You asked the question.

I merely answered your question but you seem to have taken offense at that.

If you are going to ask a question and then take offence because I answer it then perhaps that is my queue to leave this thread and not attempt to answer any more of your questions. Your attitude towards me is quite hurtful.

I will leave it to others to respond to your questions from now on.

[xanmad33]

I am not insinuating anything.

You asked the question.

I merely answered your question but you seem to have taken offense at that.

If you are going to ask a question and then take offence because I answer it then perhaps that is my queue to leave this thread and not attempt to answer any more of your questions. Your attitude towards me is quite hurtful.

I will leave it to others to respond to your questions from now on.

no, girl, I am not offended

PEACE! and Im just trying to be clear about my motives that have so often come into question here, that's all

My olive brach of peace and friendship is extended to you <3

[Misshalfway]

Well Misshalfway, I started this thread to get that answer myself

I am trying to understand who your God is....There have been a few conflicting statements, and I'm just not all the way sure yet, but that's my personaly thoughts, and thats one reason I'm here :)

What are the conflicting statements? Short and sweet.

I guess I believe that God is called by different names and understood so differently by the people of the world. But that doesn't stop me from believing that God is over all and understands these differences and that He receives the prayers of the world.

I know you are trying to understand how we see God. And it appears that you cannot reconcile our belief with yours. But what stops you from this kind of concession? If I pray and you pray? Doesn't God hear us both? Or does He only hear certain people who wear certain labels? And does he only listen if the petitioner understands him perfectly? If that is so, then wouldn't all Christianity be in trouble, considering God is seen as something man can't comprehend? Not to mention the rest of the planet.

[xanmad33]

What are the conflicting statements? Short and sweet.

I guess I believe that God is called by different names and understood so differently by the people of the world. But that doesn't stop me from believing that God is over all and understands these differences and that He receives the prayers of the world.

I know you are trying to understand how we see God. And it appears that you cannot reconcile our belief with yours. But what stops you from this kind of concession? If I pray and you pray? Doesn't God hear us both? Or does He only hear certain people who wear certain labels? And does he only listen if the petitioner understands him perfectly? If that is so, then wouldn't all Christianity be in trouble, considering God is seen as something man can't comprehend? Not to mention the rest of the planet.

It depend on who you are praying to. I have clarified that argument in posts past.

It's not about labels, it's about belief

For "whosovever believes" shall have everlasting life, but then the Bible also makes clear who you are to believe in.

this thread was to look at that aspect.

[Elgama]

It depend on who you are praying to. I have clarified that argument in posts past.

It's not about labels, it's about belief

For "whosovever believes" shall have everlasting life, but then the Bible also makes clear who you are to believe in.

this thread was to look at that aspect.

See I only actually believe there is one God who answers all sincere prayers no matter what you call Him/Her/Them

-Charley

[WillowTheWhisp]

I believe there may well be other false gods , such as Baal in the OT, but I do not believe that Heavenly Father would redirect our prayers to Baal or anyone else if we approached him as Jesus instructed us to.

[WillowTheWhisp]

no, girl, I am not offended

PEACE! and Im just trying to be clear about my motives that have so often come into question here, that's all

My olive brach of peace and friendship is extended to you <3

Your olive branch is accepted, and one offered in return.

Perhaps when we have such different beliefs it may seem to each other than we are being antagonistic when neither intend that.

I have been studying Jeremiah recently which has been quite enlightening.

[Elgama]

I believe there may well be other false gods , such as Baal in the OT, but I do not believe that Heavenly Father would redirect our prayers to Baal or anyone else if we approached him as Jesus instructed us to.

I believe a false God is something you seek out intentionally or is more tangible like a football player or money etc

-Charley

[xanmad33]

See I only actually believe there is one God who answers all sincere prayers no matter what you call Him/Her/Them

-Charley

This is perhaps where our strongest difference lies...

[xanmad33]

Your olive branch is accepted, and one offered in return.

Perhaps when we have such different beliefs it may seem to each other than we are being antagonistic when neither intend that.

I have been studying Jeremiah recently which has been quite enlightening.

thanks willow :)

[xanmad33]

I believe a false God is something you seek out intentionally or is more tangible like a football player or money etc

-Charley

I persoanlly believe the Bible speaks the way it does about God and as often as it does for a purpose. It is vital to understand the God you worship. (At least Biblically it is)

but i also agree with you your statement and I would add that sometimes we seek out other "gods" *unintentionally* because we have been blinded by lies..

[Guest Leeanntheonetwo]

It depend on who you are praying to. I have clarified that argument in posts past.

"It's not about labels, it's about belief

For "whosovever believes" shall have everlasting life, but then the Bible also makes clear who you are to believe in."

this thread was to look at that aspect.

Quote from Skalenfehl:

"Xanman, initially when I said we our beliefs were based on the Bible, I meant it, but I also said our belief isn't based "entirely" on the Bible.

I did feel the Savior in that page. I illustrated it immediately in my very first post with my comment on Handel. We believe similar things from a different perspective.”

Please forgive me Skalenfehl for not quoting everything that you wrote in this quote of yours. I just wanted to focus on one point in your statement. And I must say you have many great statements.

I think I see what you’re saying Skalenfehl , our Mormon beliefs are based upon the bible only if they agree with the book of Mormon. Please correct me if I am wrong, but are we not then just picking and choosing what we want to believe? I mean does God change His mind on what is true from one day to the next like man does?

For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity. (Moroni 8:18)

But thou art the same yesterday, today, and forever; and thou hast elected us that we shall be saved, whilst all around us are elected to be cast by thy wrath down to hell; for the which holiness, O God, we thank thee; and we also thank thee that thou hast elected us, that we may not be led away after the foolish traditions of our brethren, which doth bind them down to a belief of Christ, which doth lead their hearts to wander far from thee, our God. (Alma 31:17)

Now let us look at what the bible says about God’s unchangeable word.

I believe the Bible literally. So when it says God is the same yesterday, today and forever, I believe it. Let’s look at the bible and compare what we read to the Book of Mormon. Let just see if they agree or not.

Let us read from Hebrews 13:8

V8 “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.

Jesus is God and He said so in John 8:58

V58 “Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you before Abraham was, I AM.”

Who was it that spoke to Moses when He said; “Tell them that I AM that IAM sent you”? It was God.

So if Jesus teachings are different from the Book of Mormon then I have a problem with that. The question that immediately comes to mind is this; is the bible that we have today copied from the original manuscripts. I am talking about the time when the disciples were on this earth. What if these discrepancies that we find in the bible are in the original manuscripts?

Then the real issue is not in us interpretating the bible correctly but God must have changed His mind when He wrote the book of Mormon. And we know that is not possible so what’s the problem? Were not the prophets of the Old Testament and New Testament of the bible inspired as much as Joseph Smith was? My point is if God has spoke to both the prophets of the Bible and the Book of Mormon then why do they disagree with one another at times?

I submit to you Miss X and my brothers and sisters that the prophets were trying to teach that God works the same among every generation of men. His methods do not change. Personally I think we should focus on just one discrepancy at a time until we find resolution. I think that it will be interesting to find out what doctrines are affected the most.

My I suggest that we begin our search by taking one passage in the Bible that conflict with the book of Mormon to see if it is in the original Hebrew or Greek manuscripts. And then let us take our search to the next step. If we’re going to get to the bottom of this issue we are going to need as many people involved as possible. I am no researcher and I have a hard time keeping up to you guys but I will do my best.

Who would like to go first? Go ahead and pick a discrepancy from the bible that does not agree with the book of Mormon or the other way around. Please let us all be objective and kind to one another. No one is attacking our LDS faith and we are not here to attack anyone else’s religion. We just want the facts and that is all.

Sense this is Miss x’s thread I don’t think we should stray too far from her topic. Can we keep our focus on the nature of God?

I have a very busy life like many of you so please understand if I can't respond as quick as you would like me to.

Lots of Love,

Leeann

[WillowTheWhisp]

Jesus is God and He said so in John 8:58

V58 “Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you before Abraham was, I AM.”

Who was it that spoke to Moses when He said; “Tell them that I AM that IAM sent you”? It was God.

What Jesus actually said was that he was the I AM of the Old Testament. The I AM of the Old Testament, the God of the Old Testament was referred to by the name of Yahweh or Jehovah. This is in line with Latter-day Saint doctrine which teaches that Jehovah/Yahweh was the pre-existance name of Jesus. He only took on the name of Jesus when he was born in Bethlehem. When the New Testament tells us that nothing was made except things that were made by Jesus Christ it is nit contradicting the Old Testament which says all things were made by Jehovah because Jesus is the same person as Jehovah. Jehovah was not Heavenly Father.

I think this is where the confusion arises about Jesus being the same person as Heavenly Father.

[xanmad33]

What Jesus actually said was that he was the I AM of the Old Testament. The I AM of the Old Testament, the God of the Old Testament was referred to by the name of Yahweh or Jehovah. This is in line with Latter-day Saint doctrine which teaches that Jehovah/Yahweh was the pre-existance name of Jesus. He only took on the name of Jesus when he was born in Bethlehem. When the New Testament tells us that nothing was made except things that were made by Jesus Christ it is nit contradicting the Old Testament which says all things were made by Jehovah because Jesus is the same person as Jehovah. Jehovah was not Heavenly Father.

I think this is where the confusion arises about Jesus being the same person as Heavenly Father.

The Bible does not support this.

Found this artice for you:

The belief that God the Father is called Elohim and Jesus is called Jehovah does not agree with what the Bible says. In actuality, in Hebrew the word for "God" is the word "elohim." Likewise, the word for the name of God (elohim) is "Jehovah." In the Bible, when the word "Jehovah" appears in the Hebrew text, it is rendered as LORD (all caps) in the English text. Also, the Hebrew word "elohim" is translated as "God."

Please consider the following verses:

"Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me" (Isaiah 43:10-11).

This verse is important because if you read what it is saying, it states that Jehovah (Lord) is stating that there will be no God (elohim) formed after him. . In other words, this verse is stating that the LORD (Jehovah), is elohim.

Let's look at two more verses.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

In this verse, LORD is Jehovah in the Hebrew. Jehovah is saying there is no God (elohim) besides him.

"Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any" (Isaiah 44:8).

The context of this verse is that Jehovah (LORD) is speaking. He states here that there is no God (elohim) besides him. He is stating that he does not know of any other elohim (God) besides himself.

My point is that the name of God (elohim) is Jehovah (LORD) and that the LORD is stating that he alone is God. In other words, Jehovah is stating that he alone is elohim. Therefore, the idea that God "the Father" is called "elohim" and that the "son" is called "Jehovah" is erroneous.

In actuality, the name of God is Jehovah.

Remember, in Hebrew text LORD equals Jehovah. God equals elohim.

"Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him" (Deut. 4:35).

"That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else" (1 Kings 8:60).

"Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves;" (Psalm 100:2).

"And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God" (Zech. 13:9).

[Dr T]

Don't forget to explain the tetragamatron since there are no vowels in the Hebrew and the other letters were put in to complete Jehovah which means "I am who I am"

[skalenfehl]

Hi Leeann,

Thanks for your kind words. When I said that our beliefs are not based "entirely" on the Bible, I guess what I should have said was the Bible supports our beliefs in who Christ is because it tells us who Christ is from Genesis all the way to Revelation, but our full knowledge of the Savior isn't limited by what is found in the Bible. We have another record by another tribe of Israel, who also were tasked to write scripture testifying of Christ's mission and divinity just as Isaiah and other prophets of the Bible were. Through further revelations given to us by modern day prophets (as were given to the prophets of old), we know and understand the nature of God, which is easily verified by the Bible as we have it today and understand it. We also have the D&C and Pearl of Great Price to support those testimonies and chronicle further revelations from Jesus Christ.

Nephi and all the prophets knew well that Christ was Jehova and our God and our Father. The Book of Mormon refers to Christ an average of every 1 1/2 to 2 verses. Christ was referred to thousands of times in the Book of Mormon. It is truly another "testament of Jesus Christ". Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega. He is our God and our Father because He created us. He is Jehova the Holy one of Israel, etc. I was about to begin commentary on each of the scriptures listed in xanmand's web page "chapter 4" in support of our beliefs to establish a common ground. I have yet to refute anything on that web page.

I believe we have sufficiently established what we as LDS members believe is the nature of Jehova, including the fact, according to our doctrine, that He has a Father in Heaven as well, who is also our Father in Heaven, for we are Christ's brothers and sisters and heirs as well to Heavenly Father's Kingdom. They are both separate and exalted personages of flesh and bone. Joseph Smith saw this just the same as Steffen in the book of Acts did, before he was stoned to death.

I think I have come to understand the nature of God from xanmad's perspective and I completely respect it. Consider that our perspective has been "broadened" by modern day revelation. What was lost to Christianity because of evil and corrupt men for 1500 years, who oppressed man in the name of religion, has been restored. Our perspective has been broadened and widened thanks to revelations from prophets who speak face to face with Jehova once more because of the restoration. Jehova has made His voice heard again as in former days and speaks to us once more in latter days. That is our perspective of the nature of God.

[Andrew777]

It depend on who you are praying to. I have clarified that argument in posts past.

It's not about labels, it's about belief

For "whosovever believes" shall have everlasting life, but then the Bible also makes clear who you are to believe in.

this thread was to look at that aspect.

We believe in the same God you do we just have a different understanding. Our understandings will never be reconciled as they are too far apart.