Hemidakota Posted April 1, 2008 Report Posted April 1, 2008 Article cited: Journal of Discourses : Compound Object ViewerThen go to page 50.
tubaloth Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 In some of the early talks (mostly by Brigham Young) it sounded like Brigham was comparing Heavenly Father with Adam (or that they were the same person). Some of the confusion comes from not actually hearing the talk, and just assuming what we read is how it was given. Others believe because it was spoken of in more then one talk that is must be some secret doctrine of our Church. There is far more written about Who Adam is and who Heavenly Father is, and they don't over lap. The best explaination that I have come up with is, some (probably even Brigham Young), took this scripture to the extream. (Doctrine and Covenants 107:53-55.)53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing.54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel.55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever. So because Adam is at our head, and is a prince over us, there is this releationship there that could be twisted to view Adam as a "god." But I think we agree this is a kind of a far stretch that some back from Adam being our prince and head, to somebody we worship.
Guest tomk Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 I've done a little reading on my own since I asked. That, plus the Holy Ghost, plus what I read here -- tells me my time is better spent in other pursuits. This doctrine or "theory" is not palatable to me.
Dr T Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 But it was taught by a "prophet" Tom. What are your thoughts on it?
Guest tomk Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Yes, it was by a prophet. It has also been very controversial. I'll be sure to ask Brigham about it when I get up there. Fair enough?
ztodd Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Yes, it was by a prophet. It has also been very controversial.I'll be sure to ask Brigham about it when I get up there. Fair enough?and certain interpretations were refuted by later prophets. I think Brother Brigham perhaps didn't make himself very clear what he really meant... but alas, it is not for us to know right now.
a-train Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Brigham certainly said Adam is God. However, he also said Adam is not Eloheim. That is the key to understanding the rather simple issue that some seek to make a mess of. -a-train
Aphrodite Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 People can twist Brigham's words and meaning's all they like. The fact is that is what a 'prophet' of God taught, and that is what he believed. This has been one of my reasons for doubting the truthfulness of the church. If Brigham Young can teach such a 'contraversial' doctrine that most members dont accept, who knows what untruths the current 'prophet' is giving us?? That then brings up the questions of what do you believe from the authorities as 'revelation' and what do you take as just good 'advice'??? What a confusing position to be in......
Hemidakota Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Yes, it was by a prophet. It has also been very controversial.I'll be sure to ask Brigham about it when I get up there. Fair enough?Concur...
Hemidakota Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 People can twist Brigham's words and meaning's all they like. The fact is that is what a 'prophet' of God taught, and that is what he believed. This has been one of my reasons for doubting the truthfulness of the church. If Brigham Young can teach such a 'contraversial' doctrine that most members dont accept, who knows what untruths the current 'prophet' is giving us?? That then brings up the questions of what do you believe from the authorities as 'revelation' and what do you take as just good 'advice'??? What a confusing position to be in......Our testimony stands alone as idependent from others.
Aphrodite Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Our testimony stands alone as idependent from others. What do you mean??
skalenfehl Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 It may be controversial to some who seek to understand the more profound doctrines, when their foundation in the gospel is not solid. If their faith is shaken by simple things, how can they not be shaken by greater things? The wise man built his house upon a rock. When our perspectives are limited by finite minds, how can we expect to understand what Brigham Young meant in one discourse? Have we mastered Isaiah? What about the other prophets? This is why the Lord constrained some prophets in the Book of Mormon not to speak more concerning some doctrines and prophesies. Sometimes people just aren't ready to understand. Consider what the Lord told Moses concerning the many worlds that He created. Read Moses Chapter One prayerfully and pay close attention to vs. 30-39. Can you wrap your mind around that? My testimony is solid but I am still learning line upon line and precept upon precept. We tend to tread a lot around the word "God" often..."Ye are gods", "I am God", Beside me there is no God", "The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God", "Adam is God", etc. I don't see a problem here. The first thing that comes to mind is the creation of the world. Who went down to organize matter? That's all I can say about this.
skalenfehl Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 What do you mean??In other words, you have to have your own testimony. Nobody can pray about a doctrine or the existence of God or the Book of Mormon for you. Your testimony must be your own personal witness from the Lord, not from me or your parents or anyone else. You must be able to stand on your own foundation.
Guest tomk Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 It may be controversial to some who seek to understand the more profound doctrines, when their foundation in the gospel is not solid. If their faith is shaken by simple things, how can they not be shaken by greater things? The wise man built his house upon a rock.When our perspectives are limited by finite minds, how can we expect to understand what Brigham Young meant in one discourse? Have we mastered Isaiah? What about the other prophets? This is why the Lord constrained some prophets in the Book of Mormon not to speak more concerning some doctrines and prophesies. Sometimes people just aren't ready to understand. Consider what the Lord told Moses concerning the many worlds that He created. Read Moses Chapter One prayerfully and pay close attention to vs. 30-39. Can you wrap your mind around that? My testimony is solid but I am still learning line upon line and precept upon precept. We tend to tread a lot around the word "God" often..."Ye are gods", "I am God", Beside me there is no God", "The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God", "Adam is God", etc. I don't see a problem here. The first thing that comes to mind is the creation of the world. Who went down to form matter? That's all I can say about this. "And THEY, THE GODS ....."I don't have a problem with the Adam-God theory. I just don't feel like the timing is right for me to pursue this.
the Ogre Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 . . . I don't have a problem with the Adam-God theory. I just don't feel like the timing is right for me to pursue this.Or that it matters
Hemidakota Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Tom, remember this quote from President Young? If people understood true philosophy-eternal philosophy, they would understand that there is an eternity of matter. Astronomers estimate that there is between us and the nearest fixed star matter enough from which to organize millions of earths like this. There is an eternity of matter, and it is all acted upon and filled with a portion of divinity. Matter is to exist; it cannot be annihilated. Eternity is without bounds, and is filled with matter; and there is no such place as empty space. And matter is capacitated to receive intelligence.If we could so understand true philosophy as to understand our own creation, and what it is for-what design and intent the Supreme Ruler had in organizing matter and bringing it forth in the capacity that I behold you here to-day, we could comprehend that matter cannot be destroyed-that it is subject to organization and disorganization; and could understand that matter can be organized and brought forth into intelligence, and to possess more intelligence, and to continue to increase in that intelligence; and could learn those principles that organized matter into animals, vegetables, and into intelligent beings; and could discern the Divinity acting, operating, and diffusing principles into matter to produce intelligent beings, and to exalt them-to what? Happiness. Will nothing short of that fully satisfy the spirits implanted within us? No.You can daily observe the operations of the spirits of men in the streets of this city. There you can now see the world exhibited as it is. You can see people hurrying from the east to the west, from the west to the east, from the north to the south, and from the south to the north. Have they an object in view? Ask the traveller whether he has; ask the bystander whether there is an object in his mind. Whether I stand or walk, whether I labour or rest, lie down or rise up, in all my acts in life there is an object. I have something in view, you have something in view, and so has the whole human family, as also all intelligence of every grade.
Guest User-Removed Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Ah....The good old "Adam-God" Theory rears its ugly little head...yet again. <vbg> Almost 10 years ago, I acquired a complete first edition set of the Prophet Brigham's Journals of Discourse. When I received them, I showed the set to an Institute Professor of mine. As he held the 1st volume (containing the talk at Conference and the Bowery where this alleged "doctrine" is contained"...He exclaimed..."Greatest set of books for good...greatest set of books for evil". Alas, Tom and others, if you've received your Endowments, you have an understanding of the role of good and evil in ours lives. First off, one must understand a couple of points...first and foremost, the Prophet Brigham's JOD's are no more doctrinal...as say the JOD's of President Hinckley, President Hunter, Benson...etc..etc..etc... The Prophet Brigham's JOD are a collection of talks given by him, over his lifetime. Do they teach the Gopsel...YES....do the teach Doctrine...YES...Do the inspire good...you bet....do they inspire evil, there is no doubt. "When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later" Let's examine this statement a little closer. When the creative periods were finished and Adam was created in the Garden...followed by Eve, they were created and placed in the Garden in celestial bodies. Meaning, since the Fall had not yet occurred, they were technically not mortal beings. Brigham goes on to tell us that Adam was prior to his creation the Archangel Michael. Now, since Michael assisted Jehovah under the guidence of Elohim in the creation of this world...and other worlds, that would rightly make Michael a god. Since he assisted in creating this world, Brigham is correct he is a god....and since we know that after the Fall, Adam became the Father of the human race...he is our Father too. (on a side note...Adam is also the earthly Grandfather of Jesus...since it is through Adam that Mary was born) NOW...no where does Brigham make any claims to worshipping Adam. He merely states that he is our Father and our God. Correct on both points. While we know that there are many Gods, we also know that we worship only the Father (Elohim) through his only begotten Jesus (Jehovah). One of the best sources of material on this topic is found in the Doctrines of Salvation (DOS) by the late Joseph Fielding Smith. "Adam-God" theory is only controversial...when we succumb to the prattlings of traditional Christianity.
VisionOfLehi Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 How do you figure "and the only God with whom WE have to do."' in any way does NOT insinuate that we somehow worship Him? It's very strange wording there, and you only explained the first half of the sentence BEFORE my quoted part.
Guest tomk Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 Tom, remember this quote from President Young? This quote was unfamiliar to me, but, nonetheless, it is AMAZING and I am filled with love and peace while I read it.Do you have an online link to it?Or can I buy the book somewhere?I am hungry for more on intelligence. Beyond what Skousen brought together in his talk, if it is to be had.Few concepts have caught my attention MORE than that which deals with intelligences!!!
Guest tomk Posted April 2, 2008 Report Posted April 2, 2008 I believe that when the Holy Ghost acts upon us, when we FEEL that stirring within us -- I believe that something is happening to us. We call it Sanctification, but I believe what that word means is we are being acted upon by intelligences. We are being changed by that action. We are becoming transformed. We are becoming NEW CREATURES in Christ. I don't totally understand the literal mechanics of the process (I would love to) but I know that I can FEEL it.
Recommended Posts