What if - Adam & Eve [Changing the Outcome]

[Hemidakota]

Engineer the 'What Is'. To back engineer 'What Was'.

[the Ogre]

Hemi and TomK, after reading through your posts I have the following to say: you like the Pharisees engage in pilpul (talk to hear oneself talk, but not to make sense or even seek truth) and are as big a danger to LDS theology as Anti-Mormon interpreters.

Aaron the Ogre

[Hemidakota]

Puf, again, as Elder Oaks stated: "For reasons that have not been revealed, this transition, or “fall,” could not happen without a transgression"

The assumption is implied in the manual by BOM verse. Not knowing the exactness of Lehi contention but the key to offspring is ..... is....... is........ lol

[Hemidakota]

Hemi and TomK, after reading through your posts I have the following to say: you like the Pharisees engage in pilpul (talk to hear oneself talk, but not to make sense or even seek truth) and are as big a danger to LDS theology as Anti-Mormon interpreters.

Aaron the Ogre

Says you - Ogre the Great

[the Ogre]

Says you - Ogre the Great

Yes says me, there is a time when such pseudo-intelligent trash is dangerous. Everything you have pursued in this thread is of absolutely no value and as such we (Latter-day Saints -- Mormon Fundies, like yourselves, however might) do not believe in it (please, look up AofF 13 ref things of good report and praiseworthy).

[Hemidakota]

I truly see, you were never a Bishop, a Stake President, or even a branch President. Am I right? Why? The power of discernment just isn't in response. It calling Judging friend. Becareful.

[Hemidakota]

Let me further add, this whole string of back and forth stemmed from last night topic with conversion with a dear sister. I sat there listening to her 'What if'; you know, and there for! She had many great valid points that I never would even entertain or ponder over.

Have there been worlds where there hasn’t been any fall? We simply don’t know. Could it happen? There is a lot of speculation but as I keep reiterating the same key as an engineer to bring more clarity to what was said, to a possible what was in seeking the correct answer. Then comes the moment of our faith, in going before the FATHER with our own deductions and asking it be true or not.

If you want to thwart the Plan of God, leave them both in the Garden; is another argument that most would over look. If Lucifer really knew the plan as it was given before the council, doing nothing could have been the better path. Or could it?

Could a four year old male and a four year old female, left alone in a house, have children? No. They were in a state of innocense. Both Adam and Eve have full grown bodies and tangible as you and me. The intelligent capacity of a child though. They had necessary organs in place to act upon what is required for offspring. Yet they still lack key element. “Knowledge”. Now, we do know Amortal beings cannot die as do our mortal bodies. Death was an act created by the fall in introducing blood into that amortal body [Note: no one really knows when this really occurred or how long they were still in the garden after they partook of the fruit]. There was a time of transition as spell out as taught elsewhere.

Eve character has revealed in the works, was very inquisitive in seeing she can obtain the level of knowledge of God. If you don’t get this, then go back and reread the verse in Moses [4:11]. For her, it was a quick gain of intelligence. She partook of the forbidden fruit for this purpose. A character flaw? Perhaps. But well worth it from our birth.

Now, the Plan of Salvation was drawn up in the beginning and presented before the council. What was Lucifer plan again? “Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost…” I will save them and they will not sin. No sin? Is that possible? Interresting statement he made.

My only answer to this perplex series of questions and valid , they maybe, goes back to Moses “Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient” (Moses 5:11). If Adam and Eve, were in a state of innocence, even later, being possible, having children would not know the full measure of joy and happiness through sin and offspring, as our FATHER once did.

[the Ogre]

I truly see, you were never a Bishop, a Stake President, or even a branch President. Am I right? Why? The power of discernment just isn't in response. It calling Judging friend. Becareful.

You asked me this once before and I ignored you. I will now say the following: make no assumptions about me.

I can say this from my church service however, that when I have been asked to read and advise leadership about the ravings of people up for church discipline, they all sound just like the drivel you and TomK are pursuing here. If you want to know a good guide to emulate, I advise you to interact more with Traveler.

[Hemidakota]

I think you need time out and sit down and read a book.

[the Ogre]

I think you need time out and sit down and read a book.

Your patronizing attitude I can handle, but your creation of complicated nonsense when the gospel is so plain and beautiful is intolerable.

Teach me teach me that which is simple and pure begged the little stream, but drown me drown me with that which is mercurial and nonsensical begs humanity. "Here is my secret-strength," the philosopher states: "my blazing intellect and the ability to confuse. Do you want more to drink, try the fire-hose of my throbbing brain."

[jadams_4040]

Remember, I added the word 'Instruction' in the second question.

Well are you asking if they did not indulge, but the spirits gave them knowledge later on instead of learning good and evil, by eating?

[Hemidakota]

It was her valid response that if our mortal parents had received further instructions overtime, they could of learned enough kowledge. My reply to this was only, "...the Plan of Salvation given, would be on hold."

The learning experience from this conversation, made me clearly go back to cover every response and relearned the topic again.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Hemi and TomK, after reading through your posts I have the following to say: you like the Pharisees engage in pilpul (talk to hear oneself talk, but not to make sense or even seek truth) and are as big a danger to LDS theology as Anti-Mormon interpreters.

Aaron the Ogre

Ok, honestly... Ditto lol. Hemi, you're not leading a discussion, you're transliterating nonsense. To be frank you're not even following official church doctrine in whatever lines of thinking you're trying to follow. And if you style yourself a teacher hoping to share wisdom through discernment, I ask "What makes you think that's you're place?" The answer to your original question is one of the most basic principles of the Gospel, as evidenced by its availability in a SUNBEAM primary manual.

It was her valid response that if our mortal parents had received further instructions overtime, they could of learned enough kowledge. My reply to this was only, "...the Plan of Salvation given, would be on hold."

The learning experience from this conversation, made me clearly go back to cover every response and relearned the topic again.

Dude I totally covered that one WAAY back. I quoted Alma "the spirit knoweth all things" and went on a little shpeal about experience and wisdom being the necessary products of this life, not just knowledge. Really this whole thing is starting to seem like a long road to nowhere... And I only followed it cause I thought it would lead somewhere fun

In regards to another question you hap-hazardly asked:

If you want to thwart the Plan of God, leave them both in the Garden; is another argument that most would over look. If Lucifer really knew the plan as it was given before the council, doing nothing could have been the better path. Or could it?

Suppose (and this is just a thought exercise and definitely doesn't lead to any profound doctrines that I'm aware of) that Lucifer (Helel ben Shahar) DID attend that grand council and knew the plan of salvation as given there. Also apply the scripture in Alma "the spirit knoweth all things" and remember that Lucifer is still a spirit and has not had the veil brought over his memories. Considering these two things together leads to the possible conclusion that Satan knew the plan of salvation, knew the necessity for opposition in that plan, and was a willing participant in fulfilling that necessary roll. You can also couple this with the book of Job where Satan and God have direct dialogue with each other in a rather casual and non-adversarial manner.

Keep in mind, of course, that this line of thinking does go completely against scriptural and prophetic teachings regarding Satan and the pre-existence.

But to continue the thought exercise, I'll cite my institute teacher who teaches that the entire chapter of Alma 13 is entirely about the pre-existence, and I'll refer you to verse 10 which speaks about the fore-ordination of the priesthood dependent upon faith and REPENTENCE - in the pre-existence!

Now, as I said concerning the holy order, or this high priesthood, there were many who were ordained and became high priests of God; and it was on account of their exceeding faith and repentance, and their righteousness before God, they choosing to repent and work righteousness rather than to perish;

If there was repentence in the pre-existence then there must also have been sin, and if sin then there must have been temptation, and from where did that temptation come? Food for thought.

[the Ogre]

. . . If there was repentence in the pre-existence then there must also have been sin, and if sin then there must have been temptation, and from where did that temptation come? Food for thought.

Nice, but of course there was temptation in the preexistence as we had to determine for ourselves whether or not to follow Th- F-ther's plan or lucifer's. There would have been some (or a lot--as we do not know exactly what happened) when people recognized the error of their ways.

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

Nice, but of course there was temptation in the preexistence as we had to determine for ourselves whether or not to follow Th- F-ther's plan or lucifer's. There would have been some (or a lot--as we do not know exactly what happened) when people recognized the error of their ways.

"Th- F-ther"? Did we convert from Judaism that we can't even spell out the word Father? I'm just curious since I've only ever seen that convention in extremely orthodox Jews.

Anywho - the point of the pre-existence repentence thought exercise is, I suppose, to ask whether there was temptation/sin/repentence BEFORE the council and Plan of Salvation were revealed, or if it speaks specifically of after like you say as regards the choice between Christ and Satan. In any event, it's interesting to note and be aware that we were taking advantage of the Atonement before the world was even created - when it was still just a twinkle in our Father's eye.

[the Ogre]

"Th- F-ther"? Did we convert from Judaism that we can't even spell out the word Father? I'm just curious since I've only ever seen that convention in extremely orthodox Jews.

Anywho - the point of the pre-existence repentence thought exercise is, I suppose, to ask whether there was temptation/sin/repentence BEFORE the council and Plan of Salvation were revealed, or if it speaks specifically of after like you say as regards the choice between Christ and Satan. In any event, it's interesting to note and be aware that we were taking advantage of the Atonement before the world was even created - when it was still just a twinkle in our Father's eye.

My maternal great-grandparents converted from Orthodoxy and moved to Utah soon after. I also have a number of Jewish friends (some of which read this site--I found about LDS Talk from a paper given at NCUR last year from a Jewish Girl who was writing about religious identity) and why should I go about offending all the nice Jewish kids reading my posts (plus, who knows if my g-grandma is reading, do you know what Jewish grandmothers are like?).

My paternal grandparents are Scots from Sterling and Bonnyrigg and would care one way or the other.

[Hemidakota]

Ok, honestly... Ditto lol. Hemi, you're not leading a discussion, you're transliterating nonsense. To be frank you're not even following official church doctrine in whatever lines of thinking you're trying to follow. And if you style yourself a teacher hoping to share wisdom through discernment, I ask "What makes you think that's you're place?" The answer to your original question is one of the most basic principles of the Gospel, as evidenced by its availability in a SUNBEAM primary manual.

Being blunt here, you missed the whole point. By jumping into the fray, mid-stream, you did not even learn anything.

Dude I totally covered that one WAAY back. I quoted Alma "the spirit knoweth all things" and went on a little shpeal about experience and wisdom being the necessary products of this life, not just knowledge. Really this whole thing is starting to seem like a long road to nowhere... And I only followed it cause I thought it would lead somewhere fun

What are you trying to refer too? Lucifier? Not likely. Noting below statement

Suppose (and this is just a thought exercise and definitely doesn't lead to any profound doctrines that I'm aware of) that Lucifer (Helel ben Shahar) DID attend that grand council and knew the plan of salvation as given there. Also apply the scripture in Alma "the spirit knoweth all things" and remember that Lucifer is still a spirit and has not had the veil brought over his memories. Considering these two things together leads to the possible conclusion that Satan knew the plan of salvation, knew the necessity for opposition in that plan, and was a willing participant in fulfilling that necessary roll. You can also couple this with the book of Job where Satan and God have direct dialogue with each other in a rather casual and non-adversarial manner.

let me refer you to this statement..."In Adam's Fall, we can see the beguiling allurements of Satan, made manifest, but he understood not the mind of God." [Alma 42]

Keep in mind, of course, that this line of thinking does go completely against scriptural and prophetic teachings regarding Satan and the pre-existence. But to continue the thought exercise, I'll cite my institute teacher who teaches that the entire chapter of Alma 13 is entirely about the pre-existence, and I'll refer you to verse 10 which speaks about the fore-ordination of the priesthood dependent upon faith and REPENTENCE - in the pre-existence!

If there was repentence in the pre-existence then there must also have been sin, and if sin then there must have been temptation, and from where did that temptation come? Food for thought.

What? Care to explain? And who was this teacher?

[Guest tomk]

Satan lured away 1/3 of the hosts of heaven. I'd call that temptation ... I'd call that WORSE than tempation. I'd call that full denial -- saying the Sun does not shine while standing at mid day.

[Hemidakota]

Ok, she here to read the respsonses she asked me....

[puf_the_majic_dragon]

My maternal great-grandparents converted from Orthodoxy and moved to Utah soon after. I also have a number of Jewish friends (some of which read this site--I found about LDS Talk from a paper given at NCUR last year from a Jewish Girl who was writing about religious identity) and why should I go about offending all the nice Jewish kids reading my posts (plus, who knows if my g-grandma is reading, do you know what Jewish grandmothers are like?).

My paternal grandparents are Scots from Sterling and Bonnyrigg and would care one way or the other.

Hahaha! No I don't now what a Jewish grandmother is like (should I be grateful?). I personally have a lot of respect for Jews in general and I like to think of Christianity as a branch of Judaism rather than a seperate religion. It reminds me of my own religious roots and helps me better understand the beliefs I've grown up with.

[Hemidakota]

Again, thanks to all those who help in this exercise.

[Adeipho]

What if Adam & Eve, never ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil? We do know that GOD placed this tree in the center of the garden for a wise purpose; perhaps, to tempt our first mortal parents.

Overtime, the Godhead, along those ministering spirits provides instruction both of them. What will be the outcome?

Ponder the question carefully before replying.

The gospel and church teachings have made it pretty clear what would have happened.

2 Nephi (2:25) - "Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy".

Moses (5:11) - "And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had aseed, and never should have bknown good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient".

"When Adam and Eve were placed in the Garden of Eden, they were not yet mortal. They were not able to have children" (Gospel Principles, page 32).

"Because Adam and Eve had eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil ... they were able to have children" (Gospel Principles, page 33).

"The lives of Adam and Eve changed after they ate the fruit our Father in Heaven had told them not to eat ... Their bodies changed. Now they could have children" (Gospel Fundamentals, page 23).

I think its pretty spelled out for us. If they had not eaten of the fruit they would have remained in their eternal and innocent state. And thats where they'd be right now and we'd not be having this thread at LDS.net

[manxman]

Itmight pay to remember that the Jews rejected Christ because of "overlooking the mark". Be careful your curiosity doesn't spoil your opportunity for salvation by getting bogged in details no-one can really know. Have faith, be content with that, for it is stronger than speculation, and leads to certainty, where speculation leads to more uncertainty.

[manxman]

It might pay to remember that the Jews rejected Christ because of "overlooking the mark". Be careful your curiosity doesn't spoil your opportunity for salvation by getting bogged in details no-one can really know. Have faith, be content with that, for it is stronger than speculation, and leads to certainty, where speculation alone leads only to more uncertainty.

[skalenfehl]

I feel compelled to say that this "what if" thread creates speculation based on unfounded assumptions. It creates more speculation and adds confusion where there need not be any. Adeipho hit it right on the head. I am increasingly concerned by some of the topics on this forum that stray far from the basic principles of the gospel and doctrines that are found in the standard works and official sources like lds.org and mormon.org where anyone can visit for clear cut answers and correct information that is approved by our church as official doctrine.

It's one thing to discuss things that General Authorities have said in the past, including the profound discourses of Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, etc, but to speculate on things outside of what has been given us by our official leaders is unproductive and in my opinion dangerous. There are members who struggle with their testimonies as it is and what must people think, who are wanting to learn about our faith, when they see threads like this? This is not my attempt to censor anyone. I'm not going to lock this topic, but I don't see any reason for this topic to continue. It is fruitless.

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