The Great Apostasy

[roman]

Roman

I believe that you and millions of others do not know or choose to reject the full truth. Prevailing christian belief is based on the bible, which we know has portions of the gospel in it, but was changed to match the doctrine voted in by the scholors during the Nician Counsel. The subsiquent branching and divisions of denominations results in a profusion of different doctrines, teachings and beliefs. That is why we need a prophet, revelation, and other doctrinal witnesses to help understand the true teachings of Jesus Christ.

While you and millions may reject Joseph Smith as a prophet, that does not make him any less of a prophet. God calls his prophets to teach people his will. We know what happens when people reject a prophet as in the the example of Noah.

I believe your effort to dissuade individuals from the focus of this forum, to Testify of the Restored Gospel, is counter to its purpose. The adversary is trying to do the same thing. I do agree that individuals should find out for themselves, weigh the differences and seek through sincere prayer to know the truth.:)

And this my friend is pure lds opinion-not based in any evidence nor historical nor Biblical assertion at all

[roman]

where is the hole? Heavenly Father has a spirit in LDS theology always has had - also in LDS theology there is a difference between God and Heavenly Father. God can also refer to Jesus who was spirit then became a man with a body, or the Holy Ghost which is just a spirit. There is more spirit and body in that God:)

-Charley

This makes absolutly no sence at all. God the Father as I said is spirit. You say he has a spirit-big bib big difference. One That I am suprised you didn't know

[Elgama]

This makes absolutly no sence at all. God the Father as I said is spirit. You say he has a spirit-big bib big difference. One That I am suprised you didn't know

yes the Father is spirit which is what I said He ALSO has a body. Not seeing how that contradicts the scripture as Jesus didn't say if the Father was just a spirit. Your just interpreting a bible verse differently which is what I said humans can perceive contradictions doesn't mean they are there.

-Charley

[darrel]

Your assumption that it is opinion is akin to your limited understanding of the Workings of God and the Spirit of truth. While I do not pretend to be a scholar or an intellectual contortionist, I do base my belief on first my study, second my faith, and third my confirmation of truth by the spirit of the Holy Ghost.:)

[roman]

yes the Father is spirit which is what I said He ALSO has a body. Not seeing how that contradicts the scripture as Jesus didn't say if the Father was just a spirit. Your just interpreting a bible verse differently which is what I said humans can perceive contradictions doesn't mean they are there.

-Charley

I know that you said that the Father has a body. Its my contention that he does not . Since I have not even given a verse of scripture to support my postion yet, your very premature in saying that I am misinterperting ONE Bible verse.

Okay, please show from the Bible that the Father has a body of flesh and bone and while your at it, that he once was a man. Now to help you we are talking about the Father

[roman]

Your assumption that it is opinion is akin to your limited understanding of the Workings of God and the Spirit of truth. While I do not pretend to be a scholar or an intellectual contortionist, I do base my belief on first my study, second my faith, and third my confirmation of truth by the spirit of the Holy Ghost.:)

Oh please you don't know me so stop with your unfounded claims of what I know or don't.

As to your use of the word MY in everything-it shows your lack of---------------------------

Now add to the discussion or bow out and we can all stop with the intellectual insults-including me

[Elgama]

I know that you said that the Father has a body. Its my contention that he does not . Since I have not even given a verse of scripture to support my postion yet, your very premature in saying that I am misinterperting ONE Bible verse.

Okay, please show from the Bible that the Father has a body of flesh and bone and while your at it, that he once was a man. Now to help you we are talking about the Father

I don't need to, I am contending the apostasy happened its a restored truth, I can provide you plenty of restored scripture on the matter, you need to provide me the one that states that Heavenly Father categorically does not have a body of flesh and bones in order to call it a contradiction or hole. Also let me check but that scripture doesn't say Father it says God which could include the Holy Ghost, especially as Jesus switches from Pater or Father in verse 23, to Theos or God in verse 24.

I personally believe the scripture you refer is talking about how we should worship God - spirit to spirit if you take it with verse 23

-Charley

[Elgama]

Oh please you don't know me so stop with your unfounded claims of what I know or don't.

As to your use of the word MY in everything-it shows your lack of---------------------------

Now add to the discussion or bow out and we can all stop with the intellectual insults-including me

if you do believe someone is not your equal intellectually explain to me where it is Christian to degrade them. God answers all my queries in prayer with love and patience, yet I am sure my reasonable intelligence and education pales next to his abilities and levels. Also as its a public forum darrel can post what he likes just as you can yourself until a moderator says otherwise.

-Charley

[roman]

I don't need to, I am contending the apostasy happened its a restored truth, I can provide you plenty of restored scripture on the matter, you need to provide me the one that states that Heavenly Father categorically does not have a body of flesh and bones in order to call it a contradiction or hole. Also let me check but that scripture doesn't say Father it says God which could include the Holy Ghost, especially as Jesus switches from Pater or Father in verse 23, to Theos or God in verse 24.

I personally believe the scripture you refer is talking about how we should worship God - spirit to spirit if you take it with verse 23

-Charley

Since the Bible is absolutly silent on The Father having a body of flesh and bone, your asking me to prove a negative-----which you know is impossible. and since you won't it shows your lack of understanding in the whole matter

[roman]

if you do believe someone is not your equal intellectually explain to me where it is Christian to degrade them. God answers all my queries in prayer with love and patience, yet I am sure my reasonable intelligence and education pales next to his abilities and levels. Also as its a public forum darrel can post what he likes just as you can yourself until a moderator says otherwise.

-Charley

Like I said we all need to stop the insults------are you the forum police?

Nice try and putting words in my mouth to try and discredit me.

This is all typical lds internet behavior----------when you can't prove a point or back it up logically---start the insults and pull a diversion

You say you won't prove your point---so Iam moving on. What would be the use to stay?

[darrel]

I would hope that CatholicGirl will see the opposing views expressed in these posts and recognize the spirit of truth. Contention and derision are not the tools of our Savior but are used by the adversary. By our fruits we can know whereof we are persuaded.

I can and will accept insults and belittling of my intelligence because I have a firm conviction of the truth of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure where this thread became a intellectual battleground but I think it or any other topic on this forum should not be used for this type of combat.:)

[Elgama]

Since the Bible is absolutly silent on The Father having a body of flesh and bone, your asking me to prove a negative-----which you know is impossible. and since you won't it shows your lack of understanding in the whole matter

no you stated it was a contradiction, I don't lack understanding I lean on God's understanding its greater than mine. You have not shown any contradiction merely a difference in interpretation. As the Bible is silent on the issue the best you can say is you don't believe it or you don't know or it is not part of your belief system. You cannot call it a contradiction as you said yourself its not there to contradict.

basic dictionary definition of contradiction is that it is to state the opposite or to apply a denial of something. The Bible does not state whether or not God has a body of flesh and bones, and Joseph Smith taught God is Spirit as well.

-Charley

[Traveler]

Catholicgirl.

Please remember that what your asking here and getting here is a thought and believe, only used by thelds church.

No one else subsribes to the belief of the total apostacy that the lds church puts forth. Nor does anyone belief in the thought that the keys were taken away by God -------except the lds chruch.

A question you may also ask is way is that? Why does 99% of the Christian world reject this mormon teaching?

Please try to be honest and accurate - the discussion is about Apostasy. What on earth is the difference between apostasy and total apostasy concerning the things of G-d?

If there was no apostasy at all, what-so-ever, why are you a protestant and not Catholic?

you are so funny.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

if you do believe someone is not your equal intellectually explain to me where it is Christian to degrade them. God answers all my queries in prayer with love and patience, yet I am sure my reasonable intelligence and education pales next to his abilities and levels. Also as its a public forum darrel can post what he likes just as you can yourself until a moderator says otherwise.

-Charley

Roman has been around a long time and does not like LDS. If you are expecting a rational discussion you will be greatly disappointed. If you were a lawyer and had not figured it out by now – if you are LDS attempting to address Roman you must treat them as a “hostile” witness.

The Traveler

[Elgama]

Catholicgirl.

Please remember that what your asking here and getting here is a thought and believe, only used by thelds church.

No one else subsribes to the belief of the total apostacy that the lds church puts forth. Nor does anyone belief in the thought that the keys were taken away by God -------except the lds chruch.

If we didn't assert that we wouldn't be the Restored Church of Jesus Christ. We are different because of Christ being at the Head and having living revelation

A question you may also ask is way is that? Why does 99% of the Christian world reject this mormon teaching?

same reasons 99% of Jews rejected Christ and the majority of the world before that rejected Israel - remember Paul needed a huge wakeup call before he converted, if you had a similar vision telling you to join the LDS church would you? before that he hated Christians

-Charley

[Elgama]

Roman has been around a long time and does not like LDS. If you are expecting a rational discussion you will be greatly disappointed. If you were a lawyer and had not figured it out by now – if you are LDS attempting to address Roman you must treat them as a “hostile” witness.

The Traveler

nope never been a lawyer I don't think first year of a law degree qualifies me for much. And like I said to Roman, Heavenly Father always answers me with patience and love, that tells me as long as the spirit doesn't get horrendous I should do the same. Roman does claim to be Christian which is one religious belief I am unsure of and feel very little affinity with so I am curious I do need to understand more.

And yes I am a Latter Day Saint less sure about being a Christian:)

-Charley

[Traveler]

nope never been a lawyer I don't think first year of a law degree qualifies me for much. And like I said to Roman, Heavenly Father always answers me with patience and love, that tells me as long as the spirit doesn't get horrendous I should do the same. Roman does claim to be Christian which is one religious belief I am unsure of and feel very little affinity with so I am curious I do need to understand more.

And yes I am a Latter Day Saint less sure about being a Christian:)

-Charley

I count you as a kind person. That is the #1 thing I believe indicates that someone is a Christian. I believe that some think that attending certain churches makes them a Christian. I do not think that attending any church (including LDS) makes anyone a Christian any more than sleeping in a garage makes someone a Chevy.

The Traveler

[Elgama]

I count you as a kind person. That is the #1 thing I believe indicates that someone is a Christian. I believe that some think that attending certain churches makes them a Christian. I do not think that attending any church (including LDS) makes anyone a Christian any more than sleeping in a garage makes someone a Chevy.

The Traveler

I'm not a Christian I am a Latter Day Saint - I am just not ready to call myself a Christian yet only just got the hang after 16 years of it being the True and Living Church rather than my testimony being I know this is where Heavenly Father wants me.

I do not identify with mainstream/traditional Christianity or truly understand it. I find it the most bewildering religion on the Earth today.

Personally I believe anyone who wants can say they are Christian whether they are is between God and them, only Christ truly knows them well enough. Until I am perfect I can only accept their word. I remember being as arrogant and intolerant of others as people who post here sometimes can be, so I can't judge someone who is on a different stage in their journey, learning and wisdom to myself.

-Charley

[CatholicGirl]

I would hope that CatholicGirl will see the opposing views expressed in these posts and recognize the spirit of truth. Contention and derision are not the tools of our Savior but are used by the adversary. By our fruits we can know whereof we are persuaded.

I can and will accept insults and belittling of my intelligence because I have a firm conviction of the truth of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.

I'm not sure where this thread became a intellectual battleground but I think it or any other topic on this forum should not be used for this type of combat.:)

I am NOT trying to fight you. I wanted to have a discussion. Sorry if I came off a little strong.

[Traveler]

I am NOT trying to fight you. I wanted to have a discussion. Sorry if I came off a little strong.

I thought you had given up and left. So I will ask again is death to be considered as evil prevailing over an individual despite the resurrection. In the same manner evil does not prevail in apostasy because of the restoration.

The Traveler

[roman]

Roman has been around a long time and does not like LDS. If you are expecting a rational discussion you will be greatly disappointed. If you were a lawyer and had not figured it out by now – if you are LDS attempting to address Roman you must treat them as a “hostile” witness.

The Traveler

Oh Please talk about a load of %^*&^*&^($ As usual and typical of lds on the internet. Travaller adds absolutly nothing but personal insults. __YES by their friut you shall know them.

And you guy wonder why things digressas they do on thread

[darrel]

CatholicGirl

I did not feel you were comming across strong at all unless you had some motive we did not recognize. Our responses were an honest attempt to answer your question. I was referring to the opposing views to our answers to your question.

You posted to this LDS forum so I assume you want an LDS answer. You can find anti-LDS views everywhere on the internet. I suggest that when you find an anti-LDS opinion on this forum that you should use discernment to determine which answer you should consider a true and accurate representation of the LDS beliefs.:)

[Snow]

Oh, okay. But I still don't understand how this could have happened. In the bible, Jesus says "Upon this rock I shall build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Jesus built HIS church on a firm foundation, and promised that the "gates of hell" will not prevail against it. If His church dissapeared even for a short time, the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, thus making Jesus a liar.

Oh please - a liar?

I believe there was an apostasy, I don't think that Christ was a liar and no, the gates of hell have not prevailed. Here the Church of Jesus Christ is today, progressing and spreading all over the world. While there is much evil in the world, Satan hasn't won.

Also... I don't think a mere seventy years after the Lord had risen to heaven, something He had made would fall apart so easily. Not when He meant it to last through the ages.

That's an interesting opinion but I don't think that history unfolds to match your opinion. Let's deal with evidences....

[CatholicGirl]

I thought you had given up and left. So I will ask again is death to be considered as evil prevailing over an individual despite the resurrection. In the same manner evil does not prevail in apostasy because of the restoration.

The Traveler

Sorry. I have been busy lately. Anyways, your question: no, it isn't. But it just blows the mind that the Lord would send his son down to the earth the be persecuted and treated so terribly, if all that work would be undone in a very short time.

[CatholicGirl]

CatholicGirl

I did not feel you were comming across strong at all unless you had some motive we did not recognize. Our responses were an honest attempt to answer your question. I was referring to the opposing views to our answers to your question.

You posted to this LDS forum so I assume you want an LDS answer. You can find anti-LDS views everywhere on the internet. I suggest that when you find an anti-LDS opinion on this forum that you should use discernment to determine which answer you should consider a true and accurate representation of the LDS beliefs.:)

Some of the responses I've got are encouraging, others defensive. All I'm saying is that I'm sorry if I've gotten a few of your backs up. Once again, sorry. I was hoping to have a discussion on beliefs, and thought that I should get a few opinions, not all the anti-mormon ones which I can get at any time. I was just curious.