Finances

[skalenfehl]

Wow, zookeeper, I appreciate your story. It's gotta be quite a challenge, and dare I say equal to the reward? Just when we think we've got it figured out the Lord throws us curve balls. I know for a fact that growing up on beans isn't the easiest thing in the world to do but I'm strong and healthy today. I wish you all the best for your twins. I'll check out that book, too.

[zookeeper2five]

I do highly recommend that book. The hardest part for us was going to cash envelopes. I found some little zippered pouches at Joann's fabrics for $1 and use those for each category. I have one for groceries, household, diapers, clothing, fuel. I keep them in a hard case pencil box I bought at Walmart for under $1. I also keep a $20 in my wallet and keep the cash box at home. That way my shopping is PLANNED. Also, I cannot spend more then I have. So I am a LOT more choosey about what I purchase. All credit cards at at home in the safe and our debit cards at kept at home. It is a proven fact (per Dave) that you will spend 15% more on average when you use plastic, even your debit card.

Sometimes I do run into sticky situations when I really wish I had my debit card on me (I forget to pack a snack, kids are hungry, etc... but I just change plans and go home.

I also go through my cart and get out all the impulse purchases I have thrown in.

NEVER take your kids shopping unless you have to.

These are some things I am learning. It is a hard lesson to learn. My dh makes very good money (thank goodness, or else we'd be in REALLY big trouble). When I quit work to have our first child, he got a raise that made his salary equal to what both of ours was. We have been blessed. We've never had a lot of money, because we lived in an expensive area, and now we have 5 kids, but I do see Heavenly Father helping us in ways that we need it.

It is a challenge, and I like the way you said, equal to the reward. Though right now, 2 children with ADHD and 1 yr old terror twins we have named Seek and Destroy do NOt seem like a REWARD! LOL Just kidding. They really are. We are blessed.

[a-train]

Zoo,

These are the trials we go through. My family has had some doosies. If you pay your tithing, the Bishop will and should help you out. It is better to pay your tithes and receive assistance from the Church.

Cash is certainly the way to go. My wife and I quit the card and life has been much better since.

Every $100 spent by a consumer on a card gives an average of $2.10 to the merchant services and credit industry. As more and more Americans use plastic, prices are increased to cover those merchant fees.

-a-train

[Aphrodite]

Our bishop just keeps telling us to pay our tithing and feed our kids beans. It is really ridiculous IMHO. My kids will NOT eat beans. And what will I use to feed my kids when I pay that $500? My grocery bill is only $600 for 7 already. And the 1 yr old twins eat more than my 4 and 7 yr old girls combined.

So money for the very very rich church comes before feeding your kids?????? What sort of irresponsible Bishop would say something like that?? Your kids come BEFORE tithing. You are doing the right thing. Any woman with kids that would put tithing over feeding their kids properly cannot call themselves a good Mother.

I feel for you- Our situation isn't as bad as yours but still difficult. There will certainly be no surprise pregnancies for us! We dont plan on having kids for another 3-4 years at least, as I want to be debt free, working, and close to having a mortgage before I even think about that. Good luck to you too!!!

[Heather]

Anytime we have car problems, my mom asks if we are paying our tithing.

Our old bishop always said too that to pay your tithing, and if you can't make ends meet after that, then go and talk to him and he will make sure your family is okay. He wanted to make sure that we were getting the blessing that come from paying a full tithing.

My suggestion is to go to your Bishop and say "Here are our bills and here is our income. We want to pay tithing and we don't want to lose our home. Let us know what can be done." Then ultimately it's your decision how you want to proceed. Even try it for a few months and see what happens. At this point, it can't hurt :)

[Moksha]

- Cable TV: Is it worth it for what we pay for it?

I wrestle with this question, but it is such an effective form of entertainment for my daughter, that it seems indispensable. Of course, I would miss the USA, Sci-Fi Comedy Central and History channels.

[a-train]

Having been in a Bishopric and having seen some of this at work, there are many who pay less in tithing than the support they receive from the Church. The widow who cast in her mite was blessed by Jesus.

-a-train

[skippy740]

So money for the very very rich church comes before feeding your kids?????? What sort of irresponsible Bishop would say something like that?? Your kids come BEFORE tithing. You are doing the right thing. Any woman with kids that would put tithing over feeding their kids properly cannot call themselves a good Mother.

The church doesn't need our money. We need the law of tithing in our lives. It is a testament of our faith to show an outward sign that we trust in the Lord.

Here's an idea: What about paying a PARTIAL tithe? Paying some is better than paying none at all.

None would say to the Lord: "I don't believe that you can work financial miracles in my life at all."

Partial would say: "I have some faith. Please help me to be blessed with as much faith as I've shown in my tithe. As my blessings grow, I promise to continue to obey, strengthen and increase my tithe to the amount that Thou would have me pay."

Full says: "I trust completely in the Lord to help me provide for all things for my family."

It's very rare that the Lord would ever say "Prove me now" on anything. On this law, that's what he says. Just because you may not be able to do it perfectly (full tithe) doesn't mean that you shouldn't pay anything at all.

I might venture to say that you will be rewarded with blessings equal to your faith of how well you can keep this law - including temple attendance.

I've heard of people who pay their annual tithing at the beginning of the year to anticipate their earnings, then have to pay more by the end of the year because they made more than what they based their initial tithing contribution!

As far as that particular Bishop is concerned - he may have been trying to convey a similar message, but may not have communicated it in the proper way.

Some is always better than none!

[skalenfehl]

So money for the very very rich church comes before feeding your kids?????? What sort of irresponsible Bishop would say something like that?? Your kids come BEFORE tithing. You are doing the right thing. Any woman with kids that would put tithing over feeding their kids properly cannot call themselves a good Mother.

The church wasn't always "very very rich". There was a time when the church was in debt and it was a day of rejoicing when Joseph F. Smith announced that the church was no longer in the bondage of debt. The early saints, especially the mothers beginning with Emma Smith faced difficulties as bad, if not worse than ours. Emma lost more than half of her children at birth but remained faithful to the end. I can only imagine the trials that she faced in her perilous time. I have no doubt that she has earned her reward by Joseph's side and is reunited with her children forever. I truly believe that Emma epitomized what a good mother is.

Bishops would be irresponsible to the Lord by not following His commandment to accept our tithes and offerings to build up His kingdom. It truly is a test of our faith and not of our finances whether we choose to pay tithing. The Lord could easily tell President Monson to purchase a plot of land somewhere in Alaska where a massive amount of gold or even oil was ready for the taking. The church would then be really super rich and wouldn't need our tithing. If the Lord really wanted He could just drop all the world's gold into the church's lap but that is not how it works. The point is the Lord sees fit to test His people. Otherwise who wouldn't readily join our church and get in line for the hand outs? It's about obedience to His laws of sacrifice and the dividends that they will pay off in eternity. The Lord has challenged us since the time of the Old Testament to prove whether or not He would open the windows of heaven and pour out blessings upon us so great that we wouldn't have room to receive them if we pay our tithing. I am living proof of that promise. Tithing is a law of sacrifice. If we can't pay tithing, how can we expect to live the law of consecration and how could we be worthy of His kingdom?

[zookeeper2five]

Anytime we have car problems, my mom asks if we are paying our tithing.

Our old bishop always said too that to pay your tithing, and if you can't make ends meet after that, then go and talk to him and he will make sure your family is okay. He wanted to make sure that we were getting the blessing that come from paying a full tithing.

My suggestion is to go to your Bishop and say "Here are our bills and here is our income. We want to pay tithing and we don't want to lose our home. Let us know what can be done." Then ultimately it's your decision how you want to proceed. Even try it for a few months and see what happens. At this point, it can't hurt :)

We've tried that... several times. Believe me. I am a returned missionary and know how the church is supposed to run, but it is not happening here like that. He does not want to see our budget and our bills. He just said pay it. He did give us a bucket of wheat though! I happily grinded it to use for making bread for our family.

Call it lack of faith, but I refuse to give a tithing check until I can obtained a promise from the Bishop that we will have food on our table. If he cannot do that (and he hasn't as of yet... had 4 meetings with him... then I will wait patiently until he does. The moment he does, I will hand it over happily and then carpool with someone to the Temple. Believe me when I say that I REALLY need to go. My Spirit is SO weary with all the challenges.

[zookeeper2five]

Here's an idea: What about paying a PARTIAL tithe? Paying some is better than paying none at all.

!

WOW.. I have to tell you... My dh and I had a budget meeting last night and discussed this VERY IDEA!!!!! We have $98 and change left over each month. I asked him if he wanted us to pay that towards tithing or snowball the vehicles to get paid off faster. We were undecided. I would happily pay this amount.

It is not that I do not have a testimony of tithing. I TRULY do. We have always paid it. But when you are faced with feeding your family or paying tithing (though I know it should be at the top) it is REALLY hard!

We do not have Dish or Cable at all. Out of 10 yrs of marriage we have only had it for 3 yrs out of those yrs and 2 were free through our apt complex. There is only a couple shows I watch and I can get them on the internet for free now. Our library has an AWESOME up to date movie collection and kids section. And that way I can be more choosey about what our kids watch. Plus, we are WAY too busy to watch tv conciously anyways.

[zookeeper2five]

Tithing is not for the church to have money, it is a commandment for us. Before the church members were given the law of tithing, there was the law of consecration. They could not live by that law so the Lord gave the lesser law which is tithing.

I truly hate not paying it. When we did pay it, I did not pay it for the church. I paid it for me. I know there are stories of the Lord blessing others with monetary blessings from paying tithing, but that has never happened to us. We have been blessed with wonderful career positions for my husband, our needs and some wants met, health, beautiful children.

Honestly, when I look back over the last 5 yrs, we were warned in a roundabout way that we needed to be extra careful with our money. We moved alot, but could have saved more and went without a lot more wants. If we had, we would have had money in savings to pay for all this. Hind sight is 20/20 though.

So I go forward. I fret. I wrestle with this. I beg for forgiveness. I also see Heavenly Father's hand in my life guiding us. I see little perks like Pres Bush's Economic Stimulus package that will be one bill off in full and which will cut out $98 each month in payments. Every little bit gets me closer to beinig able to live the law of tithing perfectly.

Believe me when I say that was ONE law I lived perfectly! I want to do ONE thing perfect again! 11 months and counting!

[zookeeper2five]

The early saints, especially the mothers beginning with Emma Smith faced difficulties as bad, if not worse than ours. Emma lost more than half of her children at birth but remained faithful to the end. I can only imagine the trials that she faced in her perilous time. I have no doubt that she has earned her reward by Joseph's side and is reunited with her children forever. I truly believe that Emma epitomized what a good mother is.

Emma Smith is my hero. I adore her!!! We live about an hour north of Nauvoo. I have driven across the Mississippi when it is a solid block of ice. And I think of her walking across the Mississippi River with her children in her arms and hanging on to her skirts that had the original manuscripts of the Book of Mormon sewn into her petticoat in the middle of winter. Oh it just brings tear to my eyes!!! She was an amazing woman. I cannot wait to meet her. I even named my first daughter after her!!

[a-train]

Call it lack of faith, but I refuse to give a tithing check until I can obtained a promise from the Bishop that we will have food on our table. If he cannot do that (and he hasn't as of yet... had 4 meetings with him... then I will wait patiently until he does.

This is where the problem lies.

-a-train

[skalenfehl]

Call it lack of faith, but I refuse to give a tithing check until I can obtained a promise from the Bishop that we will have food on our table. If he cannot do that (and he hasn't as of yet... had 4 meetings with him... then I will wait patiently until he does.

The Lord has already made that promise:

Mal. 3: 8, 10

8 ¶ Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

• • •

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

I'm going to share something with you that my wife and I have been through over the years. There have been times that we have gone to our temple recommend interviews where we have owed some tithes but have really tried catching up. Our last bishop asked us if we are "full tithe payers", in that we don't rob from the Lord. While we have been behind in the past, we always caught up and could declare ourselves as full tithe payers because that is where our hearts are.

It is when we cease living that law of sacrifice and begin rationalizing and justifying to ourselves that other things take priority that we begin to go astray. I would gladly starve and live on beans and cracked wheat than not pay tithing. I've been a month behind on bills and mortgages before, but I caught up. I'd rather owe on that than owe the Lord. I'm not going to encourage anyone to hold off one paycheck and then catch up, but sometimes it happens. Just hurry and catch up and make it right by the Lord.

Right now the market is terrible and contractors are literally starving. I have been very blessed to still have work and have had work all year (I may drive two hours to a job site but I have managed to stay busy). The Lord will and does keep His end of the bargain, and I've learned to be on His timetable and not mine. I just need to learn to be prepared against times of need as He has counseled so often through His prophets. When He throws those curve balls is when we have the opportunity to prove that we are worthy of the tests that He gives us. If the Lord cares for every sparrow and all the lillies of the field, how could He not care if a child is starving for the sake of paying a tithe? That is how we learn just what we're made of. If we can make it through the refiner's fire, we will be that much stronger and more worthy of His kingdom. The word sacrifice means literally “to make sacred,” or “to render sacred.” Sacrifice and Consecration Are Celestial Laws and we cannot be worthy of God's kingdom without living those laws.

[zookeeper2five]

I know the LORD has made that promise. I know HE will take care of us. I have just seen HUMAN BISHOPS not do what they should.

I have seen a Bishop refuse help to a family where the dad was inactive (mom and kids were very active) because he wanted the dad to come visit him at the church before he would give assistance. (Dad was the priesthood holder and that is who he HAD to see first). This same family lived in a mobile home with 7 kids and NO TOILET for 3 months before my DH (who was the home teacher) told the Bishop that if he did not give that family some assistance soon he was going to go to the Stake Presidency. This was the same Bishop who gave an inactive Single mom a check to pay her light bill even though she never came to church and has not been back since she was given the check. So I am very cautious about relying on the church for assistance.

And honestly, I am tired. The last two years have been the toughest years of my life. We almost lost the twins, I had to send my kids to live with non-member parents for 6 weeks without me being able to see them because I was on bedrest, preemie issues, and on and on.

I struggle daily with writing that tithing check.

Tomorrow is pay day. I SOOOOO badly want to write that check. But I SoOOO badly do not want to have no food in the house and nothing to feed my kids for meals. What would I do if no one shows up with food. Do I just hand the bishop that check for tithing and say.. I have $100 for food for each month... send us meals for the next 11 months until our two vehicles are paid off and we can afford food again?

[zookeeper2five]

This is where the problem lies.

-a-train

And where I am SOOO grateful for a loving Heavenly Father who will forgive my weaknesses and knows that I am doing the best I can with what I have been through.

[skalenfehl]

Hang in there. Indeed the Lord loves us no matter what. I'm pulling for you. This, too, shall pass and you will be stronger. You'll be in my prayers. Best wishes.

[Aphrodite]

Why should you have to show your financial situation to a Bishop? To PROVE you earn what you do? That would be so degrading and pountless when you can manage without paying tithing!

I think that the saying 'pay your tithing and the church will help you out with the rest' is hilarious. So you give money only to have the exact amount given back to you! Id pay it, then walk in to the Bishops office and say, ok can I have my money back now!!

I think that if you can manage on your income with not paying tithing, you should. I think paying tithing to then get assistance from the church is irresponsible. Are we not supposed to be self reliant???

[zookeeper2five]

Aphrodite,

Honestly, if I could know my kids would be feed, I would GLADLY hand that money over. I have a strong testimony of tithing. What I do not have a testimony of is human's always listening to the promptings and following through. Does that make sense?

If it was tithing or say new shoes, or tithing or something monetary, I would have NO problem handing the money over.

I am working VERY hard to get to the point to pay tithing. I use coupons so much that I have not had to pay for brand name personal items (shampoo, deodorant, toothpaste, razors, tp, etc... for 6 months now. I also have a 2 yr supply of this stuff. So I cut corners when I can. We cannot afford the kids school pictures right now, so I am scanning them onto my computer and burning it onto a CD so when we are back paying tithing and out of debt, I will be able to print it out on photo paper. I am even haviung my twins sleep on the floor on a mattress so we do not have to buy a bed. They love it though. A king size (2 twins) trampoline!

I know lots of church members that would stop paying tithing if they had as much debt as we do so they could pay it off faster. We are just paying off the 2 cars which would free up enough money to pay tithing. We would still have a $48K loan for the twins, FL house, formula and the nanny. It will be 5 more yrs before we can pay that off. But paying tithing and following the commandments is what gets me through each day knowing I am doing the best I can. And that is all that the Lord asks of us. RIght now, I am doing all I can. I HATE not following a commandment though. I know it separates me from feeling the Spririt as fully as I could.

It does not sound like you have a testimony of tithing. It is something I HIGHLY recommend getting a testimony of. Are you a new convert? Tithing is definitely a new concept for most people. Look at the money as it is all the Lord's and he is blessing you with it - you will gain the testimony of tithing you need. I highly recommend studying in Church History when it came about and the full law of consecration that came before it. The church members were desolate when they were asked to pay tithing. And they still did it.

[a-train]

Why should you have to show your financial situation to a Bishop? To PROVE you earn what you do? That would be so degrading and pountless when you can manage without paying tithing!

I think that the saying 'pay your tithing and the church will help you out with the rest' is hilarious. So you give money only to have the exact amount given back to you! Id pay it, then walk in to the Bishops office and say, ok can I have my money back now!!

I think that if you can manage on your income with not paying tithing, you should. I think paying tithing to then get assistance from the church is irresponsible. Are we not supposed to be self reliant???

Maybe your right. Maybe Jesus was wrong about the widow. Perhaps He should have rebuked her.

Or, perhaps He and His prophets have been right who have given us the commandment to pay our tithes and offerings regardless of our financial situation.

'Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.' (D&C 64:23)

'Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the Lord of hosts.' (Malachi 3:8-12)

Financial ruin, bankruptcy is better than the foregoing of tithing payments.

'And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.' (Matt. 19:29)

-a-train

[miztrniceguy]

if you paid tithing, and the church gave you the exact same dollar amount to pay bills, you would have demonstrated faith in paying your tithe, and could hold your head up and proudly say"I am a full tithe payer".

not that you have to or need to do that, as it a personal decision what you pay. but you could feel good about obeying what we are commanded to do.