Exsanguination of the Savior during the Atonement

[Guest tomk]

I have read a few books on the topic of the Atonement, all excellent.

But I still don't feel like I really have a solid understanding of how blood plays into the Atonement. Are all the reasons ONLY symbolic -- or are there practical reasons why His blood had to be purged?

I am well-acquainted with the fact that blood entered our bloodstream after the Fall of Adam. In our blood are the "seeds of death" so to speak. The root of our mortality.

Christ had to undo the effects.

One book I read talks about how Christ's blood was literally PURGED from His Body as He wrought the Atonement (and also by what he suffered during the scourging and the crucifixion).

In other words, He was walking around without a drop of blood in his body. If it was not ALL gone, then it was nearly all gone.

To put more of a fine point on where I am getting -- Christ knew and realized that, by virtue of His Divine Parentage - He had the capacity to die, but the ability to keep on living forever!

And the fact is -- he should have died long before He did. He had been purged of His blood, yet remained alive by the power of His Spirit.

Thoughts? Commentary?

[a-train]

Sounds like some good 'ol speculation.

-a-train

[the Ogre]

I'm with A-train on this. Dude, what's up with discussing stuff that has meaning only to closet mystics. Do you want to understand the mysteries of G-d? Do what Nephi did and take your pleas to the L-rd. H- has said H- would answer those kind of questions when asked in faith. If you can not take your case to the L-rd for what ever reason, maybe that is an indication that it does not matter.

What does exsanguination mean? Exsanguination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Guest tomk]

Sounds like some good 'ol speculation.

-a-train

Can you be more specific?

[Guest tomk]

I'm with A-train on this. Dude, what's up with discussing stuff that has meaning only to closet mystics. Do you want to understand the mysteries of G-d? Do what Nephi did and take your pleas to the L-rd. H- has said H- would answer those kind of questions when asked in faith. If you can not take your case to the L-rd for what ever reason, maybe that is an indication that it does not matter.

What does exsanguination mean? Exsanguination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You seem to like answering your own questions.

[a-train]

Can you be more specific?

We have no way of knowing whether 'Christ's blood was literally PURGED from His Body', or whether 'He was walking around without a drop of blood in his body.'

The scriptures are simply silent on this matter. There most certainly is an answer and the LORD knows it. But He has yet to reveal it.

My question is: What indication, if any, do we have that such is the case?

If the notion is simply that Christ's blood must be purged completely and literally from His body in order to perform the Great Sacrifice, where do we get it? Where do we get this notion?

If we are trying to say that Christ's cause of death had to be exsanguination because of the mandates concerning it in the law, we might have some case. However, we know that His cause of death was not any physical imposition, but He 'gave up the Ghost'.

-a-train

[MaidservantX]

I have thought (some) about all the parts and realities and symbolisms and details of the atonement including the blood (particularly since "blood" is part of the Sacrament as well). I don't know that I have any definite conclusions at this point.

In fact, the idea you bring up that he may very well have been walking around with no blood is very interesting, and I shall have to think on that a bit more.

I have actually been aligning the idea of "blood" more with the giving of life, rather than the giving of death (mortality), but perhaps it is one of those things that can work in a couple of different ways as a symbol -- always more to learn.

Perhaps some more study of the Old Testament law of Moses sacrifices may be in order for you and I. :)

I will bring in one more idea. I have long thought that the law of fasting was a very small 101 training in being able to be alive through the spirit, and not by food or the processes of a mortal body.

[utcowboy]

As for me, I know that he gave his life for us and that enough, I will do my best to honor his sacrifice.

[Guest tomk]

We have no way of knowing whether 'Christ's blood was literally PURGED from His Body', or whether 'He was walking around without a drop of blood in his body.'

The scriptures are simply silent on this matter. There most certainly is an answer and the LORD knows it. But He has yet to reveal it.

I wonder if there are "hints" in the scriptures I am missing.

My question is: What indication, if any, do we have that such is the case?

None. But He does want us to pay attention to the fact that His blood was involved. I am trying to understand why. I don't understand why Ogre is so "freaked-out" by this question.

If the notion is simply that Christ's blood must be purged completely and literally from His body in order to perform the Great Sacrifice, where do we get it? Where do we get this notion?

I read it in a book. Here is the link:

The Atonement of Jesus Christ

If we are trying to say that Christ's cause of death had to be exsanguination because of the mandates concerning it in the law, we might have some case. However, we know that His cause of death was not any physical imposition, but He 'gave up the Ghost'.

I agree. His blood was not spilled in order to "KILL" Him, for no man could take His life from Him. So it had another meaning.

I am trying to explore what the LDS Faith has by way of explanation of why His blood? Not just the symbolism, but the science of it, if such is to be had.

From our Bible Dictionary:

Regarded by the Israelites as the seat of the life or vital energy of all flesh (Lev. 17: 10-14).

In O.T. times blood was forbidden as food (Gen. 9: 4; Lev. 3: 17; Lev. 7: 26-27; Lev. 19: 26; Deut. 12: 16, 23; 1 Sam. 14: 32-34), which restriction was continued in the church in N.T. times, at the Jerusalem conference (Acts 15: 20-29).

The atoning power of a sacrifice was in the blood because it was regarded as containing the life of the animal and because the sacrifice was a type of the great sacrifice who is Jesus Christ (Lev. 17: 11; Heb. 9: 22).

The scripture says that “almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission” (Heb. 9: 22).

Jesus worked out a perfect atonement by the shedding of his own blood (1 Jn. 1: 7; Rev. 5: 9-10; Mosiah 3: 16-19; 3 Ne. 27: 19-21; D&C 45: 4; D&C 76: 69).

Joseph Smith, as have many other prophets, sealed his testimony with his blood that the righteous might be honored and the wicked might be condemned (Rev. 6: 9-10; D&C 135: 6-7; D&C 136: 39).

Often a covenant was sealed with blood (Gen. 15: 9-18; Ex. 24: 8; Zech. 9: 11; Matt. 26: 28; Heb. 10: 29; Heb. 13: 20).

[Guest tomk]

22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Why?

Not "why" as in regard to the Law of Moses -- but "why" as in regard to what Christ did?

[Guest tomk]

I have thought (some) about all the parts and realities and symbolisms and details of the atonement including the blood (particularly since "blood" is part of the Sacrament as well). I don't know that I have any definite conclusions at this point.

In fact, the idea you bring up that he may very well have been walking around with no blood is very interesting, and I shall have to think on that a bit more.

I have actually been aligning the idea of "blood" more with the giving of life, rather than the giving of death (mortality), but perhaps it is one of those things that can work in a couple of different ways as a symbol -- always more to learn.

Perhaps some more study of the Old Testament law of Moses sacrifices may be in order for you and I. :)

I will bring in one more idea. I have long thought that the law of fasting was a very small 101 training in being able to be alive through the spirit, and not by food or the processes of a mortal body.

Thank you for your post.

That is an interesting "take" on Fasting. As the body gets weaker, the spirit gets stronger? Have to take care with that one. You could take that too far. The Church does not condone prolonged or excessively frequent fasting. Not that you were suggesting such.

[tubaloth]

try this

(Moses 6:59-60.)

59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

Elder Bruce R. McConkie explained:

“Two births are essential to salvation. Man cannot be saved without birth into mortality, nor can he return to his heavenly home without a birth into the realm of the Spirit. . . . The elements present in a mortal birth and in a spiritual birth are the same. They are water, blood, and spirit. Thus every mortal birth is a heaven-given reminder to prepare for the second birth. . . .

“In every mortal birth the child is immersed in water in the mother’s womb. At the appointed time the spirit enters the body, and blood always flows in the veins of the new person. Otherwise, without each of these, there is no life, no birth, no mortality.

“In every birth into the kingdom of heaven, the newborn babe in Christ is immersed in water, he receives the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, and the blood of Christ cleanses him from all sin. Otherwise, without each of these, there is no Spirit-birth, no newness of life, no hope of eternal life. . . .

“. . . These elements were again present in [Christ’s] death. He sweat great drops of blood in Gethsemane as he took upon himself the sins of all men on conditions of repentance. This same agony and suffering recurred on the cross. It was then that he permitted his spirit to leave his body, and it was then that blood and water gushed from his riven side” (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 288–89).

[MaidservantX]

As the body gets weaker, the spirit gets stronger?

No. The body is stronger -- but fed by the spirit literally. There is no weakness involved.

Have to take care with that one. You could take that too far. The Church does not condone prolonged or excessively frequent fasting. Not that you were suggesting such.

I agree. However, as you mention, I am not even beginning to suggest a longer time period. I do think about it terms of the type of experience I am having with fasting as it is. Gee . . . now it's almost something for another thread. :)

[skalenfehl]

But I still don't feel like I really have a solid understanding of how blood plays into the Atonement. Are all the reasons ONLY symbolic -- or are there practical reasons why His blood had to be purged?

I personally have no opinion about exsanguination. Your original query about the relevance of Christ's blood in atoning for us is in the fact that it was shed for us. It is the shedding of His blood that washes our sins away and makes our "garments clean" and not how much of his blood was shed (although I should note that Christ's suffering was so intense that He bled from every pore that “Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

“But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I;

“Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink—

“Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men” (D&C 19:16–19).)

I believe it is only symbolic. The physical elements, in my opinion, are co-incidental. It is, however, interesting to note that Christ did resurrect with a glorified body of flesh and bone. By contrast, Adam and Even initially had bodies of flesh and bone but were not glorified beings. We can't fully comprehend the Atonement without first understanding the Fall of Adam (we must first understand our pre-mortal existence in order to then understand the Fall).

In a very real way, the atonement of Jesus Christ affects each of our lives and the life of every human being who ever lived. Understanding the significance of His atonement is fundamental to choices we make in all facets of our lives. The atonement of the Lord is central to our faith. (See Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co. 1938, p. 121.)

We are scripturally bound to study it and to teach it. In the book of Moses we read these words of God:

“I give unto you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children, saying:

“That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the [atoning] blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;

“For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;

“Therefore it is given to abide in you.” (Moses 6:58–61.)

But before one can comprehend the atonement of Christ, one must first understand the fall of Adam. And before one can comprehend the fall of Adam, one must first understand the Creation. These three pillars of eternity relate to one another.

In the beginning, God created the earth and all that was upon it. He created man in His own image, male and female created He them. (See Gen. 1:27; Gen. 5:2; D&C 20:18; Moses 2:27; Moses 6:9.) Adam and Eve were first created with bodies of flesh and spirit, without blood, and were unable to die or beget children. Thus, we might describe this as a paradisiacal creation, one that initially equipped Adam and Eve to live in the Garden of Eden, which was in a state of everlasting paradise. (See Moses 4:28–29.)

Adam and Eve’s subsequent fall effected a change upon their bodies. While I don’t understand completely the chemistry of that change, somehow it permitted blood to circulate in their veins. It provided for processes of aging and death to come upon their tabernacles of flesh. And in a marvelous manner, it allowed the blessing of procreation, so that myriads of awaiting spirits could be born and thus obtain mortal bodies. The Fall was a necessary part of Heavenly Father’s plan for His children. Indeed, “Adam fell that men might be; and men are, that they might have joy.” (2 Ne. 2:25.) The so-called “fall of Adam” might thus be termed the mortal creation. It allowed mankind to attain and endure the mortal experience, to enjoy posterity, and then to leave this period of probation through the portal of death.

Adam and Eve’s fall, however, and the subsequent sins of their posterity, cut mankind off from the presence of God. An atonement, or reconciliation, had to be made. And only God could make it. Even before the Creation was completed, the premortal Jehovah understood the need for an atonement. Even before breath was put into the man Adam, the Christ knew that He would be required to serve as a Savior. He understood His responsible role. He was to be born into mortality to suffer, to bleed, and to die.

Why? That each of us might ultimately be at one (atoned) with God after our mortal experience, that we might be able to live with Him once again, as we did as spirit beings before our birth. His atonement would allow our resurrection from the dead. Then our bodies would be changed to those of flesh and spirit and be able to dwell in the presence of God. The effects of the Atonement might thus be expressed as the immortal creation, for “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.” (1 Cor. 15:22.)

No serious student of the life of Christ can fail to be deeply moved by the Lord’s own testimonies of His atoning experience. Even though He knew what was required, the record states that He felt “sore amazed.” (Mark 14:33; see also Mark 14:35–36.)

He completed His suffering at Gethsemane and on Calvary’s cross. There He gave this last testimony: “It is finished.” (John 19:30.) He had fulfilled His earlier prophecy: “To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world.” (John 18:37.)

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Standards of the Lord’s Standard-Bearers

[Hemidakota]

I have read a few books on the topic of the Atonement, all excellent.

One book I read talks about how Christ's blood was literally PURGED from His Body as He wrought the Atonement (and also by what he suffered during the scourging and the crucifixion).

In other words, He was walking around without a drop of blood in his body. If it was not ALL gone, then it was nearly all gone.

Thoughts? Commentary?

Perhaps the Romans scourging the Savior needs to be revisited for more insight. Being part mortal, even on the cross, one of the Roman had a spear and he did an act that shed additional light what came forth.

[skalenfehl]

Perhaps the Romans scourging the Savior needs to be revisited for more insight. Being part mortal, even on the cross, one of the Roman had a spear and he did an act that shed additional light what came forth.

Are you referring to the Roman who pierced Christ in the ribs after hanging on the cross for a long time? Blood did not come out of the wound. I believe I read about that in Talmage's "Jesus the Christ". It was interesting.

[Hemidakota]

Let me look...thanks.

[Hemidakota]

Skalenfehl, as stated, I was right. Read the bold statement below:

It was now late in the afternoon; at sunset the Sabbath would begin. That approaching Sabbath was held to be more than ordinarily sacred for it was a high day, in that it was the weekly Sabbath and a paschal holy day. The Jewish officials, who had not hesitated to slay their Lord, were horrified at the thought of men left hanging on crosses on such a day, for thereby the land would be defiled; so these scrupulous rulers went to Pilate and begged that Jesus and the two malefactors be summarily dispatched by the brutal Roman method of breaking their legs, the shock of which violent treatment had been found to be promptly fatal to the crucified. The governor gave his consent, and the soldiers broke the limbs of the two thieves with cudgels. Jesus, however, was found to be already dead, so they broke not His bones. Christ, the great Passover sacrifice, of whom all altar victims had been but suggestive prototypes, died through violence yet without a bone of His body being broken, as was a prescribed condition of the slain paschal lambs. One of the soldiers, to make sure that Jesus was actually dead, or to surely kill Him if He was yet alive, drove a spear into His side, making a wound large enough to permit a man's hand to be thrust thereinto. The withdrawal of the spear was followed by an outflow of blood and water, an occurrence so surprising that John, who was an eye-witness, bears specific personal testimony to the fact, and cites the scriptures thereby fulfilled. (James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ: A Study of the Messiah and His Mission According to Holy Scriptures Both Ancient and Modern, p.615)

Compare this with references too: John 19:34-37, Palms 22:16, Zechariah 12:10, Revelation 1:7

[skalenfehl]

Yup, Talmage. Although I forgot that it was both blood and water. I remember it only as being water...but it was about 18 years ago when I read it. Thanks for verifying.