How does science fit in with our doctrine?

[Guest tomk]

And saying that if only they followed the Gospel more, they would have accomplished more is just as arrogant of a statement, glad we agree.

I hate to break it to you, but all religions are man-made and all religions claim to be divinely inspired. Saying that yours is so special that it can't be 'lumped' with others is a statement out of arrogance and ego. Whether one or more of them truly is divinely inspired is purely a matter of opinion and calling someone stupid for accepting or rejecting a particular religion is a rediculous claim.

DS:

From where I stand, it is not a matter of opinion.

For me, it goes back to my witness from God of the divine origins of the Book of Mormon.

Since you lack that witness right now (although I hope this changes), I am not sure you are really in a position to say it is a "purely a matter of opinion."

[DigitalShadow]

DS:

From where I stand, it is not a matter of opinion.

For me, it goes back to my witness from God of the divine origins of the Book of Mormon.

Since you lack that witness right now (although I hope this changes), I am not sure you are really in a position to say it is a "purely a matter of opinion."

When you have many different people believing different things based on feelings isn't that the definition of "opinion"? That was the sense I was using "opinion" in.

[Misshalfway]

And I am sorry for saying so, but I believe your expressed viewpoint is a better description of the problem. The scientific method is flawed? How exactly is it flawed in your expert opinion?

I don't think the method itself is flawed at all. I sometimes think the findings are flawed or perhaps have missing pieces to the puzzle. And just because the method itself "works" it takes lots of research and failed efforts to discover and duplicate a truthful and reliable answer. That is the problem that man will forever face. They will learn and know lots of things. But they won't learn everything.....and certainly not be able to comprehend all things in all of their varied contexts.

Using this method humans have created all the modern luxuries you now enjoy and you casually dismiss it as "flawed" because some of the conclusions it produces do not fit in with your world view?

Casually dismissing???? My car is a wonderful invention. What would I do without it? But without flaw? Hmmmmm. When was the last time you had a car that didn't break down or cost you an arm and a leg at the gas station? Not to mention the conspiracy to keep real technology suppressed because big oil is so powerful. Can't make a great car, cause they make too much money on the good ones!!!!!

Not everything man creates is flawless. Look at our tax system..... then compare it with the law of tithing. Which works better do you think????

What do you propose as the new way of gaining knowledge in this world? Find your local preacher, listen to him, read his proposed scriptures and then pray about it until finally get warm fuzzy feelings telling you he is right? If praying is such an accurate method, why can't someone who has had no contact with missionaries or preachers simply pray and get consistent results?

I think what I see in this argument is the understanding that there is only one way to discover knowledge. I find that a bit ..... well, self limiting to say the least. God didn't make us ONLY logical. Are we all like Spock? GMAB!!! He gave us a variety of faculties to determine truth. Some truth can't be discovered by the scientific method. Like discerning a person's heart. Or knowing if someone is really telling the truth. Technology thinks it knows...... but let's tell the truth. We aren't very good at it some days. We need our other senses to encompass ALL of our experience here on this earth.

If consistency is what you are looking for, you CAN find it in the LDS faith. Most every member can tell you a similar story. And even though each account may vary, there are some very simple hallmarks consistent with everyone; prayer, study, faith, spiritual answers received. I can't promise that all people in other religions follow this method. I can't guarantee that they even understand the Holy Ghost. In my recent conversations, I have been disturbed to find out that some would dismiss feeling the Spirit for the biblical text or their own intellect. It is astonishingly arrogant, IMO. But I can promise that this method, the one outlined by Moroni IS reliable. It has happened to me! It has happened to so many who talk to you so patiently here. It has happened to your wife and her family. I am so sure of myself, I don't even need to meet them to know this. Is their knowledge perfect? No. But it is perfect in a few things. Again, Alma 32.

Science is constantly looking to expand our knowledge with observations, experiments and theories always taken new information into account, regardless of preconceptions we may have. The scientific method is what led us out of the superstitious dark ages where people were declared to be witches and of the devil because they were different in some way.

And aren't we all so grateful for the developments of that extremely innovative time. Antibiotics alone!!!

It is the same for what Heavenly Father wants to give to us in terms of spiritual knowledge. The holy ghost WILL teach you in your MIND and your HEART what is true. How things really are and how they really will be. By the Holy Ghost, you may know the truth of ALL things. Not just science, or medicine..... but ALL things!!!

I'm sorry but simply "asking God" and then following the answer you receive requires a suspension of logic given the number of people that ask God and get inconsistent answers and the number of man-made religions that have existed throughout the years.

It is not important how much inconsistency you see in the world. The world isn't following the same pattern. Of course, you will see inconsistency. Look to the ones who follow Moroni's promise. In no other religion, will you find such a sure promise....and so many who can testify of its reliability. That sounds pretty logical to me.

Religion and science conflict because they require two different ways of thinking to work and there is no way to follow the scientific method to religious conclusions.

I find this reasoning flawed....and this is why. The scientific method is useless in some circumstances. Do you use the scientific method to choose what hamburger to order, or whether or not to tell the truth, or in romancing your sweetheart on Friday night or in comforting yourself after the death of a loved one????

I think that you have made the decision that the scientific method is the only reliable method. I think you limit yourself by doing so. I also think you underestimate you ability as a human and child of God to understand more than just science.

[Moksha]

Just be glad Philo T. Farnsworth was not bound by the doctrine that the television camera captured the soul into the television.

- Moksha, Happy Moments in Mormon Science, 2008

[Guest tomk]

When you have many different people believing different things based on feelings isn't that the definition of "opinion"? That was the sense I was using "opinion" in.

It is a matter of opinion if there is no true church available.

Something would have to distinguish that church from all others.

The Book of Mormon does that through the promise of a witness from God contained within it's pages.

I did what was required to obtain the witness...and received it as promised.

[Misshalfway]

Oh....and one more thing. I know in my reading that some of our geniuses of history report that they were helped my God to discover their particular truth. Forgive me for not knowing all the references right now. But I know Christopher Columbus is one of them.

[Hemidakota]

And saying that if only they followed the Gospel more, they would have accomplished more is just as arrogant of a statement, glad we agree.

I hate to break it to you, but all religions are man-made and all religions claim to be divinely inspired. Saying that yours is so special that it can't be 'lumped' with others is a statement out of arrogance and ego. Whether one or more of them truly is divinely inspired is purely a matter of opinion and calling someone stupid for accepting or rejecting a particular religion is a rediculous claim.

Being blunt at this point, you’re wrong! Sad to see this! Now, reading the last post, it was more revealing and very noticeable over a series of posting, one prides in claiming such vestige over another is revealing. I did expect this was coming eventually. Your own elf-lifting character over others is showing. For now, you are heading down the wrong path [Read Nephi – Tree of Life]. Now, I don't know or perhaps at this point, don't really care to know, what transpired in your life to limit your views with such blindness but as Tom already stated to you, you are entitled to your free agency, to choose your life pursuit, and to post your own beliefs within the forums rules.

"I will testify to you as a servant of GOD, [i would hate to break to you [using your own phrase]], there is only one plan of salvation, one gospel of Jesus Christ, one atoning Savior, one religion, one called prophet, that guides and directs the church on this earth. Standing here as one of a few witnesses, there is no other religion upon this planet but two that remains one of God and the other the Church of Abomination [see 2nd Nephi]. Noting these two great houses, the Godhead is not an author of confusion or never will be. You stand in error.

Whether men of faith or not, be inspired by the Light of Christ or maybe preordained to this earthly [actors] stage, with fields [studies] of endeavor, their calling to that position of life, all light or truths given, comes directly from this same original source. Men are and will be inspired, whether they believe so or not. God’s will be done. Eventually, upon return of the Savior, all worldly dogmas will be corrected, credit will be given to the true author of each area of endeavor.

For I am His witness and His servant and claim no more than what is given by His hand by which is confirm by the Holy Spirit. No matter the contradiction between what is given, God will correct men who draw nigh to HIM. In the name Jesus the Christ. Amen”

Now, this point forward, even though, you have the right to post your own views, when I post, MOVE ON. Neither will I again make comment to you, your post, or bide in open internet conversion. Am I clear on this issue? I hope so.

To others, not to bring any contentious brooding spirit to the thread or to this forum, where there others who are sincerely seeking the truths, I do apologize to who may read this for such a ‘spirit within’ at this time.

[DigitalShadow]

I find this reasoning flawed....and this is why. The scientific method is useless in some circumstances. Do you use the scientific method to choose what hamburger to order, or whether or not to tell the truth, or in romancing your sweetheart on Friday night or in comforting yourself after the death of a loved one????

Yes, the scientific method doesn't apply to all circumstances, including the ones you just brought up but none of those have to do with determining the truth of theories which the scientific is absolutely valid for.

I think that you have made the decision that the scientific method is the only reliable method. I think you limit yourself by doing so. I also think you underestimate you ability as a human and child of God to understand more than just science.

The scientific method has proven itself to be a reliable method for determining truth, which is why I use it. Yes we all have feelings, but what makes us intelligent beings is the fact that we are able to use reason and logic to go beyond simply acting directly on our feelings like other animals.

[Misshalfway]

Hemi,

Really cool quote. Who said it?

And it is sad to see your state of mind switch to something so condescending. We just have people on this thread who see things differently that is all.

[Misshalfway]

Yes, the scientific method doesn't apply to all circumstances, including the ones you just brought up but none of those have to do with determining the truth of theories which the scientific is absolutely valid for.

Agreed. But can you see that there are spiritual methods for determining truth that are reliable as well? I

The scientific method has proven itself to be a reliable method for determining truth, which is why I use it. Yes we all have feelings, but what makes us intelligent beings is the fact that we are able to use reason and logic to go beyond simply acting directly on our feelings like other animals.

I am going to disagree with you here. Yes, reason and logic separate us. But so do hosts of other human capacities. It is these capacities that I see you dismiss. You either see them as "lesser" that logic or reason or you simply don't recognize their power and capacity at all. Logic and reason are wonderful....but they pale in comparison to love.

[Guest tomk]

Yes, the scientific method doesn't apply to all circumstances, including the ones you just brought up but none of those have to do with determining the truth of theories which the scientific is absolutely valid for.

The scientific method has proven itself to be a reliable method for determining truth, which is why I use it. Yes we all have feelings, but what makes us intelligent beings is the fact that we are able to use reason and logic to go beyond simply acting directly on our feelings like other animals.

A correct understanding of the Fall of Adam would seem to be in order.

We don't think OR reason correctly, due to the Fall of Adam!!! That is the problem!!!

This is why we need to depend upon God to guide us!! He is the only Being in possession of the facts and the only Being able to reveal unto us our actual reality!!

I wish I could impress upon you how desperately we need His influence in our lives!!

[DigitalShadow]

Being blunt at this point, you’re wrong! Sad to see this! Now, reading the last post, it was more revealing and very noticeable over a series of posting, one prides in claiming such vestige over another is revealing. I did expect this was coming eventually. Your own elf-lifting character over others is showing. For now, you are heading down the wrong path [Read Nephi – Tree of Life]. Now, I don't know or perhaps at this point, don't really care to know, what transpired in your life to limit your views with such blindness but as Tom already stated to you, you are entitled to your free agency, to choose your life pursuit, and to post your own beliefs within the forums rules.

"I will testify to you as a servant of GOD, [i would hate to break to you [using your own phrase]], there is only one plan of salvation, one gospel of Jesus Christ, one atoning Savior, one religion, one called prophet, that guides and directs the church on this earth. Standing here as one of a few witnesses, there is no other religion upon this planet but two that remains one of God and the other the Church of Abomination [see 2nd Nephi]. Noting these two great houses, the Godhead is not an author of confusion or never will be. You stand in error.

Whether men of faith or not, be inspired by the Light of Christ or maybe preordained to this earthly [actors] stage, with fields [studies] of endeavor, their calling to that position of life, all light or truths given, comes directly from this same original source. Men are and will be inspired, whether they believe so or not. God’s will be done. Eventually, upon return of the Savior, all worldly dogmas will be corrected, credit will be given to the true author of each area of endeavor.

For I am His witness and His servant and claim no more than what is given by His hand by which is confirm by the Holy Spirit. No matter the contradiction between what is given, God will correct men who draw nigh to HIM. In the name Jesus the Christ. Amen”

Now, this point forward, even though, you have the right to post your own views, when I post, MOVE ON. Neither will I again make comment to you, your post, or bide in open internet conversion. Am I clear on this issue? I hope so.

To others, not to bring any contentious brooding spirit to the thread or to this forum, where there others who are sincerely seeking the truths, I do apologize to who may read this for such a ‘spirit within’ at this time.

It is unfortunate that you are so violently close-minded to other viewpoints. I agree that we are getting no where and should move on.

[Misshalfway]

I wish that I could convince you to believe in Moroni's promise the same way you view the scientific method. I have just seen it work in my own life yet again. I know you don't know the circumstances of my life..... and perhaps don't care, but I will share with you that I have been fighting against my testimony. So many doubts have been swirling and battling inside of me. I have shared with you before the long months that the Heaven's seemed closed to me. I now believe that this was all a trial of my faith. Lately, I haven't been praying like I should and relying on the arm of my flesh to solve my problems and carry my burdens. I finally humbled myself back to prayer. In two nights of reading and praying, I already feel my burdens lifting and have already felt very specific answers coming into my mind and my heart. I didn't manufacture it. I didn't make it up. Earlier in the last few weeks, I wished that I could deny it!!! Because with knowledge comes responsibility. But I can't deny it. It really happened, and is currently in these very days and moments happening to me again.....as it has my whole life. It is the pattern of discovering truth and communicating with the Almighty. The pattern always works!!!

I understand your position. I so wish you could understand mine. But understand if it can't go that way. What is that scripture in the BofM...."if I don't stumble because of my over-anxiety for you." Hope you will forgive me. :)

And it IS ok, if I am not able to convince you. I couldn't even if I wanted too. It is God who does the convincing anyway. No one but God could have convinced me of the answers I needed. No one!!

At least DS, I hope you know you have friendship here and people who care about your quest to find answers and your inability to recognize one yet.

Please try to have faith. Try to set all of this argument and logic humanness to the side. There is a whole spiritual being inside of you....who has tremendous capacity. Perhaps you know of what I speak. I hope so.

[DigitalShadow]

A correct understanding of the Fall of Adam would seem to be in order.

We don't think OR reason correctly, due to the Fall of Adam!!! That is the problem!!!

This is why we need to depend upon God to guide us!! He is the only Being in possession of the facts and the only Being able to reveal unto us our actual reality!!

I wish I could impress upon you how desperately we need His influence in our lives!!

You say that we need God's influence and for Him to guide us, but that is not what I have observed in this world. I have done quite well for myself with no help or communication with God. Maybe that message would resonate with me if I weren't doing well in life or felt like something was missing, but it just doesn't feel like I need a higher power guiding me. I say this not out of arrogance but out of honesty. I can't change how I feel any more than you can change how you feel.

I very much appreciate your empathy and determination to help me accept the Gospel, but so far it has simply not shown itself to be true to me. I remain open to the possibility, but until then, the scientific method has already proven to be a valuable tool in determining truth.

[DigitalShadow]

I wish that I could convince you to believe in Moroni's promise the same way you view the scientific method. I have just seen it work in my own life yet again. I know you don't know the circumstances of my life..... and perhaps don't care, but I will share with you that I have been fighting against my testimony. So many doubts have been swirling and battling inside of me. I have shared with you before the long months that the Heaven's seemed closed to me. I now believe that this was all a trial of my faith. Lately, I haven't been praying like I should and relying on the arm of my flesh to solve my problems and carry my burdens. I finally humbled myself back to prayer. In two nights of reading and praying, I already feel my burdens lifting and have already felt very specific answers coming into my mind and my heart. I didn't manufacture it. I didn't make it up. Earlier in the last few weeks, I wished that I could deny it!!! Because with knowledge comes responsibility. But I can't deny it. It really happened, and is currently in these very days and moments happening to me again.....as it has my whole life. It is the pattern of discovering truth and communicating with the Almighty. The pattern always works!!!

I understand your position. I so wish you could understand mine. But understand if it can't go that way. What is that scripture in the BofM...."if I don't stumble because of my over-anxiety for you." Hope you will forgive me. :)

And it IS ok, if I am not able to convince you. I couldn't even if I wanted too. It is God who does the convincing anyway. No one but God could have convinced me of the answers I needed. No one!!

At least DS, I hope you know you have friendship here and people who care about your quest to find answers and your inability to recognize one yet.

Please try to have faith. Try to set all of this argument and logic humanness to the side. There is a whole spiritual being inside of you....who has tremendous capacity. Perhaps you know of what I speak. I hope so.

Faith is somewhat of a foreign concept to me, my beliefs require evidence to support them (spiritual or otherwise). You can say that it is a bad thing that I don't have faith, but I could just as easily be a Catholic or a Scientologist if my beliefs were so easily placed.

[Guest tomk]

You say that we need God's influence and for Him to guide us, but that is not what I have observed in this world. I have done quite well for myself with no help or communication with God. Maybe that message would resonate with me if I weren't doing well in life or felt like something was missing, but it just doesn't feel like I need a higher power guiding me. I say this not out of arrogance but out of honesty. I can't change how I feel any more than you can change how you feel.

I very much appreciate your empathy and determination to help me accept the Gospel, but so far it has simply not shown itself to be true to me. I remain open to the possibility, but until then, the scientific method has already proven to be a valuable tool in determining truth.

I have abundant scriptural evidence that trusting in God is the best way to go:

2 Ne. 4: 34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

Jer. 17: 5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

2 Ne. 28: 31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

D&C 1: 19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

There is a whole other world waiting for you!!

To be honest, by your own words, you don't seem too interested -- not really. You seem to lack the humility necessary. Maybe that's it. Maybe it is your pride that is the problem.

[DigitalShadow]

I have abundant scriptural evidence that trusting in God is the best way to go:

2 Ne. 4: 34 O Lord, I have trusted in thee, and I will trust in thee forever. I will not put my trust in the arm of flesh; for I know that cursed is he that putteth his trust in the arm of flesh. Yea, cursed is he that putteth his trust in man or maketh flesh his arm.

Jer. 17: 5 Thus saith the Lord; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the Lord.

2 Ne. 28: 31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

D&C 1: 19 The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh—

There is a whole other world waiting for you!!

To be honest, by your own words, you don't seem to interested -- not really. You seem to lack the humility necessary. Maybe that's it. Maybe it is your pride that is the problem.

Yes, YOU have abundant evidence that trusting God is the way to go, but scriptural evidence is only evidence if you accept the scriptures to be true. You're starting to get into the circular logic territory of:

1. Why believe in God?

2. Because the scriptures say to.

3. Why believe the scriptures?

4. Because God gave them to us.

5. Why believe in God?

6. See number 2.

I do not think that pride is my problem, because I have no problem believing wherever the evidence leads me. Believing that you don't know the truth because there is insufficient evidence is not a prideful position, it is a humble one.

[Misshalfway]

Faith is somewhat of a foreign concept to me, my beliefs require evidence to support them (spiritual or otherwise). You can say that it is a bad thing that I don't have faith, but I could just as easily be a Catholic or a Scientologist if my beliefs were so easily placed.

Let's talk about that evidence you need then. I would imagine if you were going to discover something you would first go to those scholars or respected scientists to study their findings. Right? You would probably look to them as authority figures rather than running around duplicating every experiment and study yourself. Correct?

The scriptures are the same thing. The patterns and methods are in there along with lots of others who substantiate the experiences of each other. And then you have people in the world who you trust...right? People you look up to as moral or trustworthy individuals. Correct?

Nothing replaces personal experience when it comes to the Spirit. But I see the evidence, at least preliminary evidence you need to at least see that there is perhaps merit to the testimonies given. Or are all of these unreliable witnesses?

[DigitalShadow]

Let's talk about that evidence you need then. I would imagine if you were going to discover something you would first go to those scholars or respected scientists to study their findings. Right? You would probably look to them as authority figures rather than running around duplicating every experiment and study yourself. Correct?

The scriptures are the same thing. The patterns and methods are in there along with lots of others who substantiate the experiences of each other. And then you have people in the world who you trust...right? People you look up to as moral or trustworthy individuals. Correct?

Yes, I look over other scientists findings rather than doing all the experiments myself but I can tell you that there are papers I have read that I disagree with the conclusions drawn from their experiments and I view scriptures with the same critical eye.

Nothing replaces personal experience when it comes to the Spirit. But I see the evidence, at least preliminary evidence you need to at least see that there is perhaps merit to the testimonies given. Or are all of these unreliable witnesses?

People of all religions have testimonies. Testimonies only demonstrate the wide variety of beliefs people seem to hold as undeniable truths. It's not that they are unreliable people but their messages are conflicting.

[Guest tomk]

Yes, YOU have abundant evidence that trusting God is the way to go, but scriptural evidence is only evidence if you accept the scriptures to be true. You're starting to get into the circular logic territory of:

1. Why believe in God?

2. Because the scriptures say to.

3. Why believe the scriptures?

4. Because God gave them to us.

5. Why believe in God?

6. See number 2.

I do not think that pride is my problem, because I have no problem believing wherever the evidence leads me. Believing that you don't know the truth because there is insufficient evidence is not a prideful position, it is a humble one.

It is circular logic, and it blesses my life tremendously:

1. Why believe in God?

2. Because I feel Him speaking to me.

3. Why believe the scriptures?

4. See number 2.

You are free to not trust "feelings" as a valid way to know if something is true.

I am free to trust the things I feel from God.

I trust what I feel from God.

[HiJolly]

Joseph Smith quoted:

"This earth was organized or formed out of other planets which were broken up and remodeled and made into the one which live." [Joseph Smith, The Words of Joseph Smith, pg 60]

Ok, this looks like the one and only quote to the point. I would like to point out that our solar system is the result of at least 2 previous novas, and therefore is very much "formed out of other planets" ...and suns, for that matter...

This is something they didn't know back in the 19th century. So when B.H. Roberts, or Cleon Skousen or his son Mark, use this, I think they are limiting the possibilities far too much if they do not consider this as the potential thing Joseph was speaking of.

HiJolly

[ewendels]

All truth is and can be circumscribed into one great whole. All truth is related to each other and is independent of opinion or understanding. Whether you feel you don't need religion doesn't mean it doesn't exist, the same with God. Science is always climbing over itself, making corrections as it acquires "further" information. If an advanced geneticist took some elementary students and let them "figure things out" it would be truth to them as far as they know but the scientist and his colleagues would just smile. For a man to lean on what other men have discovered while something so far greater is happening is like being stuck in a 2nd grade science class for a life time while others are organizing matter. Man may keep discovering and progressing in understanding but tomorrows truths will come from yesterdays errors.

[HiJolly]

Yes, YOU have abundant evidence that trusting God is the way to go, but scriptural evidence is only evidence if you accept the scriptures to be true. You're starting to get into the circular logic territory of:

1. Why believe in God?

2. Because the scriptures say to.

3. Why believe the scriptures?

4. Because God gave them to us.

5. Why believe in God?

6. See number 2.

I do not think that pride is my problem, because I have no problem believing wherever the evidence leads me. Believing that you don't know the truth because there is insufficient evidence is not a prideful position, it is a humble one.

So, did you watch the movie "Contact", dedicated to Carl Sagan? I think it came out in the 80's. If so, what do you think of the point of the movie?

BTW, I have enjoyed this thread, though it's been a bit irritating, due to the talking past each other that is going on. Hope you have patience to discuss views with me. I have had a great interest in science and religion for many years.

HiJolly

[sgallan]

Both men believe in a supreme being.

Just had to bring this up because I here it often that people try to suggest Einstein like he was some sort of conventional religious God believer. Einstein did not believe in a higher power called God in any religious sense of the word, even though he used the term "God". Here is some quotes explaining his position.......

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man." (Albert Einstein)

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein, 1954)

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

"Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being."

(Albert Einstein, 1936, The Human Side. Responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray.)

[HiJolly]

Both men believe in a supreme being.

Just had to bring this up because I here it often that people try to suggest Einstein like he was some sort of conventional religious God believer. Einstein did not believe in a higher power called God in any religious sense of the word, even though he used the term "God". Here is some quotes explaining his position.......

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty - it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man." (Albert Einstein)

"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." (Albert Einstein, 1954)

"The religion of the future will be a cosmic religion. It should transcend personal God and avoid dogma and theology. Covering both the natural and the spiritual, it should be based on a religious sense arising from the experience of all things natural and spiritual as a meaningful unity. Buddhism answers this description. If there is any religion that could cope with modern scientific needs it would be Buddhism."

"Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being."

(Albert Einstein, 1936, The Human Side. Responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray.)

"... until his subjective experience proves otherwise." (my addition)

HiJolly