Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[Guest HEthePrimate]

MyDogSkip,

Did you even read my post? The whole point of the post was to honor Elder McConkie even though one may not agree with everything he ever said. He was a good man, and I would consider it a pleasure to meet him someday in the next life over a rootbeer.

Peace,

DH

[VisionOfLehi]

MyDogSkip,

Did you even read my post? The whole point of the post was to honor Elder McConkie even though one may not agree with everything he ever said. He was a good man, and I would consider it a pleasure to meet him someday in the next life over a rootbeer.

Peace,

DH

Consider this issue resolved and over, please. No more discussion on it.

[Guest User-Removed]

MyDogSkip,

Did you even read my post? The whole point of the post was to honor Elder McConkie even though one may not agree with everything he ever said. He was a good man, and I would consider it a pleasure to meet him someday in the next life over a rootbeer.

Peace,

DH

Dude...Every now and then I do something incredibly stupid....Such has occurred here...My apologies to you.

[rameumptom]

Elder McConkie was an amazing man. When Mormon Doctrine came out, he had done what other GAs had done in writing books: wrote it and published it without the First Presidency's oversight.

However, since this book was entitled, "Mormon DOCTRINE" and written in a very authoritative manner, and was selling off the LDS bookstore shelves; Pres McKay asked Elder McConkie not to publish a second issue without his okay. This actually began the effort of having all GA books reviewed prior to publishing.

Elder McConkie allowed several years to go by before asking to rework and republish it. He received permission from Pres McKay, had Elder Spencer W. Kimball go over the book and require many changes.

[Hemidakota]

Well, the Catholic churches started out on the right foundation, perhaps I should look past the human errors in intervening years and join up with them?

Perhaps...but is your first name Richard? Just curious...

[Dale]

I am Ex-LDS turned Community of Christ/RLDS. I came down with Multiple Sclerosis. I was to ill to try the LDS Church out again. Its hard for me to be active in my church that i love because i had to stop driving. I never felt like i fit into the LDS picture. I failed at ever single church calling they ever tried to get me to do. I started avoiding church activities that would enable them to offer me more callings.

Did i have sins? Yes. I am a human being who has sins. I had no closeness to any LDS people especially Bishops i trusted enough to let them know my sins. My involvement in the church was superficial ever since i read Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness as a teenager. I do not see what i think about religious matters to be a sin. What was i going to do in a repentance process admit Godly sorrow for my beliefs, and cease beliefs LDS see as apostate.

I started RLDS associations back in 1989. I converted to the church, but remained closet RLDS for many years. In 2005 i had my LDS Bishop via my request get my name off the records. At the same time i got baptized Community of Christ. I had went to the Bishop once and told him i had come close to joining the church before. But i decided i did not want repeat visits discussing matters that would require me to pretend to be someone whom i am not to be in good standing. I am no longer LDS and moved on.

[KosherXMorg]

Perhaps...but is your first name Richard? Just curious...

I think this is a joke that is going completely over my head but if it isn't... No, my name is not Richard.

[MichaelPAGuy]

That quote is only 1/2 right. Many people leave the church because we come to the conclusion that the church and Joseph Smith are a fraud.

[Justice]

There are sins of omission and sins of commission. I don't think Elder McConkie made a distinction. Some people, including myself, would enjoy sitting around doing nothing, or an extra day to relax on the weekend.

I think if there were exceptions to his statement he would have said so.

At different times in my life I have been very active in Church participation. I can tell you that, although it takes more of my time, I am much happier when I am doing the Lord's work, and I actually do have a great time doing it. But, when I become idle and don't give the effort I should, I begin to look for excuses to not go to church.

I feel moved to share a story from my distant past. Most of you don't know, but Elder Bednar used to be my Stake President. Many years ago I had an interview with him that I have never forgotten. He led me to a small primary classroom and set up 2 chairs facing each other in the center of the room. We sat and he offered a prayer. He then asked me a question: "Brother P_______, why don't some people do their home teaching?" As I thought, a flood of reasons or excuses came into my mind. I fumbled through saying them. My response was something like, "I think because they don't make it a priority, they are too busy, they don't love those that they home teach..." I can't remember everything I said, but he waited patiently until he could tell I was finished.

I wasn't exactly sure why he asked the question. I thought maybe he was taking some survey through the Stake and was going to use the information he gathered for some purpose. It never occured to me that he knew the answer before he asked.

He leaned forward in his chair and said, I can still remember the words exactly, "Because they are not fully converted to the Lord." Although this was the simple answer, he elaborated for me, "When a Priesthood holder is converted to the Lord, not only will he complete all his Priesthood assignments, but he will do so in a timely manner."

That's all I remember from the interview.

I can tell you of a surety that I have found this to be true in my life. The amount to which I am converted to the Lord is directly proportional to how active I am in His Church. But, it reciprocates.

I can assure you that Elder McConkie is right on target.

[skalenfehl]

He leaned forward in his chair and said, I can still remember the words exactly, "Because they are not fully converted to the Lord." Although this was the simple answer, he elaborated for me, "When a Priesthood holder is converted to the Lord, not only will he complete all his Priesthood assignments, but he will do so in a timely manner."

This happened to Peter!

Luke 22:31-34

31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Peter, being human, did deny Christ three times, but in the end he became valiant in his testimony and repented when Christ told him three times to feed his sheep. That is akin to missionary work, hometeaching, etc. In the end Peter was hung upside down, and I read somewhere, that perhaps he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as Christ and so he was crucified upside down. Other apostles also died horrible deaths, sealing their testimonies with their blood. They truly had been converted.

[Justice]

Dale, I felt moved when I read your post.

I don't really know what to say.

I do know that you don't have to have a personal relationship with the bishop if you believe he was called of God. If you did not believe he was, then you had a serious problem. And, without contact with any member, I can't imagine what you must have gone though.

I am deeply sorry that this happened to you.

But, try to remember that even though called of God, bishops and leaders are still only human. It is very likely Heavenly Father tried to make someone aware of your issues. It's a sad fact that we don't always respond.

I wish you the best in your new life and I hope you find friends you can trust.

[gwozz]

That quote is only 1/2 right. Many people leave the church because we come to the conclusion that the church and Joseph Smith are a fraud.

Ah, but assuming the church is true, a humble seeker of truth would never leave it, regardless of their personal situation and trials they confront. If we truly humble ourselves before our father, and ask to do his will over anything else, no one would ever leave the church.

[Guest Leeanntheone]

I am on record for leaving the church as of two days ago. The following is just a few short reasons why I left the church. And they had nothing to do with wanting to live a worldly life. Here is the last post that I will ever post on this site. It is a response to a member of this site who asked if we might be a cult. After much soul searching I believe we are a cult. Here is a few reasons why I now believe the way I do. I do not want to offend you, I just want to tell you what I have learned when I humbeled myself before God Almighty and took a hard look at the truth that was in my hand and considered that it just may not be the truth.

Hey what if we really are a cult?

I mean like the Jehovah’s witnesses we too are relatively a new religion. We both got our start with a prophet who says that he has had new revelation from God. And yet at times the new revelation doesn’t agree with the old revelation that is in the Bible. I mean did God change His mind about what truth is? What part of the original Bible does God no longer agree with? And since when was He a God who changes His mind. Consider this, we have many prophets in the Bible who all agree with each other and then one new prophet in the end days comes along and says God has given him a new revelation. Isn’t this cause for alarm for any of us?

Does it not say at the end of the Bible in the revelations that if any man adds or takes away from this book (The Bible) that God Himself will take away the offending person’s right to the tree of life and take away the person’s share in the Holy City.

Did not the Jehovah’s Witnesses add to the truth that is found written in the Bible? Did not our prophet Joseph Smith do the same?

By adding new truth are we not really taking away the old truth? And if we agree with the Jehovah’s Witnesses and their prophet’s new teachings are we not equally guilty of adding to the Bible?

If you add new truth to what is all ready written in the Bible you are condemned by God and if you take away any truth found written in the Bible you are condemned, Right? Go ahead and read the end of the book of Revelation and see if what I am reporting is true.

And how about this one. Many will be deceived in the last days, even the elect if possible.

Are we not called Lds? Our church was born in the last days was it not?

Or how about this one, for many false Christ’s shall arise, and false prophets and will do wonderful miracles so that if it were possible God’s chosen would be deceived. See I have warned you. Matthew 24:24-25

I just quoted our Lord Jesus warning us about false prophets doing wonderful miracles in the latter days.

Why did God wait 2000 years to reveal new truth to us that doesn’t agree with the truth that He already shared with us when He was on this earth? God’s new truth or man’s new truth or even worse, Satan’s new truth?????

Why did God wait for the end days to tell us all this new revelation that is not found anywhere in the original Bible? We do have the original Bible you know. Google the Dead Sea scrolls and just see what pops up. Much of the original Bible word for word.

Does it not say in the Bible that Satan can appear as an angle of light?

After much searching I believe we just may be a cult. Do you know how Joseph Smith died? After he killed two others in a gun battle he was then shot dead. Am I the only Lds woman who thinks for herself? I have shared my findings with some of my friends and they disagree strongly. When I ask why they disagree they give me emotionally charged answers that are dumb. They don’t even know what the church believes. My interpretation of someone who is involved in a cult is someone who believes in something so strongly but they don’t really know what their faith is really all about. They are brain washed. More than this, what they believe is not true and they have no discernment or not enough information about their faith or there not even willing to take a hard look to see if they may be wrong.

I admit before all of you that I have been wrong. I have taken a look at what our church believes and I believe we are a cult. Too many things just don’t add up. Our church is big but so is the deception. I already know how most of you will respond so save your breath. I challenge you to do what I did, pretend that the lies that people were saying about us might really be the truth and then go and read everything they have to say on the Internet and then compared what they said to what our church believes. Some of what people said about us was just not true. Many of these web sites are run by former Mormon men and women who like me have had the vile lifted of their eyes. The truth speaks for its self.

Do you know why the teachers of the law could not believe that Jesus was the Messiah even when He told them to their face? It was because they were too full, too full of their truth. Only when we truly humble ourselves will our eyes be opened to God's truth's.

I ask you; if you are involved in a cult wouldn't you like to know about it?

One last question, how many deceived people do you suppose know that they are deceived?

Leeann:(

[rameumptom]

Dale,

Just because a person is called by God to a position, does not mean that person will faithfully magnify it. Take Judas Iscariot for instance, or many of the early Church leaders in our dispensation.

Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone (Quorum of 70, emeritus) once told me of how he had a not-so-nice bishop. The bishop seemed to hate him. Anytime there was a slimy assignment, the bishop gave it to him. Finally, when it came for the annual building assessment, the bishop called him in and assessed him more than anyone else in the ward, even though they were on the lower end of the salary scale. He went home to his wife to discuss it. They agreed that it was not fair nor right, but they decided to sustain their bishop anyway. They sold their television and other items to pay their assessment.

Not long afterward, the bishop was released. Then, brother Featherstone was called as a Seventy General Authority. In his ordination, he was told that this had been a test for him, which he had passed. Had he not submitted himself to the bishop's unfair actions, he would not have been called by God.

I learned much from his experience. I've had some leaders in Church that were not wise, and some that were downright mean and/or stupid. But I still did my best to follow them, because they were called of God, and my job is to follow as best I can and let God handle the incompetence and/or wickedness of those he calls.

[Hemidakota]

I think this is a joke that is going completely over my head but if it isn't... No, my name is not Richard.

Good to hear that....he was a member of the Eyr-L Forum that had many problems with church doctrine that cost him - excommunication.

[Hemidakota]

Dale,

Just because a person is called by God to a position, does not mean that person will faithfully magnify it. Take Judas Iscariot for instance, or many of the early Church leaders in our dispensation.

Elder Vaughn J. Featherstone (Quorum of 70, emeritus) once told me of how he had a not-so-nice bishop. The bishop seemed to hate him. Anytime there was a slimy assignment, the bishop gave it to him. Finally, when it came for the annual building assessment, the bishop called him in and assessed him more than anyone else in the ward, even though they were on the lower end of the salary scale. He went home to his wife to discuss it. They agreed that it was not fair nor right, but they decided to sustain their bishop anyway. They sold their television and other items to pay their assessment.

Not long afterward, the bishop was released. Then, brother Featherstone was called as a Seventy General Authority. In his ordination, he was told that this had been a test for him, which he had passed. Had he not submitted himself to the bishop's unfair actions, he would not have been called by God.

I learned much from his experience. I've had some leaders in Church that were not wise, and some that were downright mean and/or stupid. But I still did my best to follow them, because they were called of God, and my job is to follow as best I can and let God handle the incompetence and/or wickedness of those he calls.

Observation. those that called by the Savior as His own, have more enemies in the church than the world.

[Hemidakota]

This happened to Peter!

Luke 22:31-34

31 ¶ And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

Peter, being human, did deny Christ three times, but in the end he became valiant in his testimony and repented when Christ told him three times to feed his sheep. That is akin to missionary work, hometeaching, etc. In the end Peter was hung upside down, and I read somewhere, that perhaps he did not feel worthy to be crucified in the same manner as Christ and so he was crucified upside down. Other apostles also died horrible deaths, sealing their testimonies with their blood. They truly had been converted.

Peter or the the other ten did not have the Holy Ghost to bear witnessed to them that He was truly the Christ. Something President Kimball spoke often about - Peter the Prophet/Apostle.

He felt by hanging on the cross upside down, is what he deserve in denying the very Christ openly as you spoke about.

[Hemidakota]

I am Ex-LDS turned Community of Christ/RLDS. I came down with Multiple Sclerosis. I was to ill to try the LDS Church out again. Its hard for me to be active in my church that i love because i had to stop driving. I never felt like i fit into the LDS picture. I failed at ever single church calling they ever tried to get me to do. I started avoiding church activities that would enable them to offer me more callings.

Did i have sins? Yes. I am a human being who has sins. I had no closeness to any LDS people especially Bishops i trusted enough to let them know my sins. My involvement in the church was superficial ever since i read Kimball's Miracle of Forgiveness as a teenager. I do not see what i think about religious matters to be a sin. What was i going to do in a repentance process admit Godly sorrow for my beliefs, and cease beliefs LDS see as apostate.

I started RLDS associations back in 1989. I converted to the church, but remained closet RLDS for many years. In 2005 i had my LDS Bishop via my request get my name off the records. At the same time i got baptized Community of Christ. I had went to the Bishop once and told him i had come close to joining the church before. But i decided i did not want repeat visits discussing matters that would require me to pretend to be someone whom i am not to be in good standing. I am no longer LDS and moved on.

I was new convert to the church and was not properly trained or theological educated enough about appropriate church attire. Being a single adult, I went with my friend who converted me, to a Stake Singles Fireside. The theme was about the Savior, Jesus the Christ and our guest speaker was the Stake President.

My manner of dress was of a selection of clothing that was previously purchase prior to my conversion of the best picked clothing [nice disco shirt, matching tie, and dress slack] in my closet since I had no suit at the time due to my large statue. Being born-again with this founded church, I was very exhilarated in going and learn about my Elder Brother.

I always ensure that I sat close to the front of the meeting to not only hear every word but to feel of that spirit that was being manifested. During the meeting the Stake President kept looking at me, which I have no clue why, until he changed the main topic to that of manner of dress code and what was is appropriate to wear in the chapel. I felt the spirit of wholesome and delight turned into one of vexation.

This went on for few more minutes when I began to feel I was being singled out as the only single adult who was picked on. Perhaps, it was my wearing of the entire unsettled him. Why, did this happen and especially from a Stake President? I really don’t know what caused this man to presume that I was doing out despite of church rules. All I can say, I was ignorance of the church’s dress code.

During the latter portion of the meeting, the Stake President became ill and had to leave the meeting and cut his talk short.

In my tenure within that Stake, in becoming a regional single adult rep, I felt the spirit of uneasiness with this Stake President until he was finally replaced [earlier than usual for a stake president].

My experiences by the hand of the Lord, this is His church and not mans. If there is a problem that we face with local leadership who strives to cause displeasure with certain members, I am a firm believer; you follow the leader and strive to correct that individual through vocal and prayer [softening the spirit]. If the individual refuse to be corrected and continues in error, then take it to the Lord Himself. This one always works. I can attest to it.

[Guest User-Removed]

Hemi...Tell me you weren't in a leisure suit????...but more importantly, tell me you still have those disco records.....bwahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

[Hemidakota]

No...I am glad I didn't own one. LOL

[skalenfehl]

Peter or the the other ten did not have the Holy Ghost to bear witnessed to them that He was truly the Christ. Something President Kimball spoke often about - Peter the Prophet/Apostle.

Can you refer me to any articles or references? I'm very curious about this.

[Guest User-Removed]

No...I am glad I didn't own one. LOL

I can't remember the movie...but it took place in the 70's...afterwards, my son looked at me and exclaimed...Oh please Dad...tell me you NEVER looked like that....

My silence soooooooooooooo condemned me:roflmbo:

[rameumptom]

Can you refer me to any articles or references? I'm very curious about this.

My understanding is that they did have the Holy Ghost. For example, after proclaiming him the Christ, Jesus told Peter that he had a testimony not of man, but from Father in Heaven.

Having stated this, I will note that there is a difference between a testimony and conversion. While both are from the Holy Ghost, the conversion is a complete changing that occurs within a person. The resurrected Christ told Peter, "when you are converted, strengthen your brethren." Jesus knew that Peter had a testimony, but was not converted - which was why he waivered in denying Jesus three times.

Yet, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Ghost burned within him and made him a lion. No longer did he fear man, but God. He was changed in the same way we see conversion from the Holy Ghost changed the Lamanites, Alma, Paul, and others.

[gwozz]

My understanding is that they did have the Holy Ghost. For example, after proclaiming him the Christ, Jesus told Peter that he had a testimony not of man, but from Father in Heaven.

Having stated this, I will note that there is a difference between a testimony and conversion. While both are from the Holy Ghost, the conversion is a complete changing that occurs within a person. The resurrected Christ told Peter, "when you are converted, strengthen your brethren." Jesus knew that Peter had a testimony, but was not converted - which was why he waivered in denying Jesus three times.

Yet, on the day of Pentecost, the Holy Ghost burned within him and made him a lion. No longer did he fear man, but God. He was changed in the same way we see conversion from the Holy Ghost changed the Lamanites, Alma, Paul, and others.

I recommend you read the Bible Dictionary under "holy Ghost": the second paragraph says:

"For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7: 39; John 16: 7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (cf. Matt. 16: 16-17; 1 Cor. 12: 3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth into the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33: 1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35: 19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1: 21)."

The Holy Ghost was testifying in the hearts of men that Jesus was the Christ. The manifestation, however, is different than the gift, and the situation while the Son was on the earth is "not fully explained." Anything taught beyond this is conjecture, as it cannot be measured by the "standard" (scriptures). It definately was not the Father that was communicating the testimony of the Son to the heart of men at Jesus's time. It was the Holy Ghost.

[Hemidakota]

Gwozz, beat me to the punch. This only happened during Christ ministry among the Jews.