Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[gwozz]

well, a personal witness only comes to those who choose to seek it. As such, those who choose not to apply moroni's promise, for example, can't claim "but you didn't tell me" at the last day. The truth is, they chose not to ask.

As for who gets what punishment, and who is guilty for what, beats me. But men are accountable for what they choose. And not choosing to know leads to not knowing, so really will your neighbor to whom you gave the first discussion and a book of mormon and ask him about it all the time and tell him he should pray and ask God be able to say--"but I didn't know" at the last day? I guess we'll find out.

[KosherXMorg]

But they are also condemned if they chose not to go in and learn the true principles--a man cannot be saved in ignorance... That is why every person to ever walk the earth will have an equal opportunity to listen, learn, and obey the principles. As such, God's final judgement will be perfectly just, and we'll all know it.

I completely agree. That is why I have studied to show myself approved and like the Bareans in the New Testament examined the scriptures to see if what I have been taught is true.

[KosherXMorg]

So they have to have a knowledge, in this life, that it is a true principle, right?

Not just hearing the word or teachings but they have to have a personal witness to it?

To me thats an interesting prospect, thanks for the enlightenment

The Book of Mormon teaches that those who do not know the law are not condemned by that law.

Being accountable for finding out whether what you are being taught is a true concept, so I can't completely agree with your 2nd sentence.

[rameumptom]

I have already explained why I left. I felt that I couldn't live up to the demands of doing everything. There weren't enough hours in the day and I couldn't get by on less than 8 hours sleep. I felt I didn't belong and would never make it. I felt I hadn't been chosen by Heavenly Father to receive the Gospel and I had gone looking for it as opposed to missionaries seeking me out. I felt alien. I didn't dispute the doctrine or disbelieve it. I just didn't believe in me, us because it applied to my husband too. This was emphasised many times when we were shunned by the church members such as being sent off to the temple on our own for the first time with no escort. To my mind it was yet further confirmation that we we trying to be part of something where we didn't belong. We'd been in the church a little over a year so we didn't give up at the first hurdle. It was about the hundredth, but we were still fairly new.

While I enjoy the fellowship with the saints, that is not the reason I joined. For most of the 32 years of membership, I have not had a home teacher. With few exceptions, most members have not invited my family and me over to their homes, but on few occasions. I've constantly had busy callings in the Church, but most of my "friendships" only go so far as the connections that occur in the calling I'm in.

I can't count the thousands of miles I've driven, the number of times people have dropped the ball for me to pick up, etc. Yet I continue on, not because I'm something wonderful, but because I know it is true.

I don't go to Church for fellowship. If I make a friend, that's great. If I don't, I still continue on, because the true fellowship I seek is with God. And there's only one way to obtain it that I'm aware of.

[Hemidakota]

I can attest to NO HOME TEACHERS or visiting teachers. lol

[WillowTheWhisp]

rameumptom I can deal with that now through experience and I will struggle against the opposition from within but way back at the beginning it left me doubting that I should be there, whether God himself actually wanted me to be there. In fact I felt that he didn't. Now I can see the difference between what Heavenly Father desires and the way other people behave, but it takes time and experience to learn something like that.

[skalenfehl]

Bruce R. McConkie was called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands. He was an apostle of the Lord and His messenger. He was a witness of Christ. He made no apology for his contributions, which are many and good. It's time we look at ourselves deeper and become who we were meant to be.

I think a lot of us are taking this too personally. Nephi did say that the wicked take the truth to be hard. Should we take our nature seriously? Allow me to approach this objectively. We are all sinners. I am a sinner. I sin every day. We all can be doing so much more.

Has not the membership of the church been under condemnation from the time of the restoration? Have not the members of the church been called wicked by the Lord himself? Research it. We are all wicked and carnal by nature. The natural man is an enemy to God. The simple fact that we have mortal bodies attests to our very fallen nature, thanks to Adam. Did not Christ call Peter Satan? When He told Peter, "Get thee behind me?". Was he literally calling him the devil himself?

Let's take a deep breath for a moment and realize that while we are mortal, of the flesh, selfish, an enemy to God by nature, we are also gods ourselves--sons and daughters of the Almighty and redeemable! Let's get over ourselves, become humble and easily entreated.

This is an excellent article:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Put Off the Natural Man, and Come Off Conqueror

Consider Nephi's words, a prophet of the Lord in 2 Ne. 4:

17 Nevertheless, notwithstanding the great goodness of the Lord, in showing me his great and marvelous works, my heart exclaimeth: O wretched man that I am! Yea, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh; my soul grieveth because of mine iniquities.

18 I am encompassed about, because of the temptations and the sins which do so easily beset me.

19 And when I desire to rejoice, my heart groaneth because of my sins; nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted.

20 My God hath been my support; he hath led me through mine afflictions in the wilderness; and he hath preserved me upon the waters of the great deep.

21 He hath filled me with his love, even unto the consuming of my flesh.

22 He hath confounded mine enemies, unto the causing of them to quake before me.

23 Behold, he hath heard my cry by day, and he hath given me knowledge by visions in the night-time.

24 And by day have I waxed bold in mighty prayer before him; yea, my voice have I sent up on high; and angels came down and ministered unto me.

25 And upon the wings of his Spirit hath my body been carried away upon exceedingly high mountains. And mine eyes have beheld great things, yea, even too great for man; therefore I was bidden that I should not write them.

26 O then, if I have seen so great things, if the Lord in his condescension unto the children of men hath visited men in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow, and my flesh waste away, and my strength slacken, because of mine afflictions?

27 And why should I yield to sin, because of my flesh? Yea, why should I give way to temptations, that the evil one have place in my heart to destroy my peace and afflict my soul? Why am I angry because of mine enemy?

28 Awake, my soul! No longer droop in sin. Rejoice, O my heart, and give place no more for the enemy of my soul.

[KosherXMorg]

I think a lot of us are taking this too personally. Nephi did say that the wicked take the truth to be hard. Should we take our nature seriously? Allow me to approach this objectively. We are all sinners. I am a sinner. I sin every day. We all can be doing so much more.

Has not the membership of the church been under condemnation from the time of the restoration? Have not the members of the church been called wicked by the Lord himself? Research it. We are all wicked and carnal by nature. The natural man is an enemy to God. The simple fact that we have mortal bodies attests to our very fallen nature, thanks to Adam. Did not Christ call Peter Satan? When He told Peter, "Get thee behind me?". Was he literally calling him the devil himself?

Let's take a deep breath for a moment and realize that while we are mortal, of the flesh, selfish, an enemy to God by nature, we are also gods ourselves--sons and daughters of the Almighty and redeemable! Let's get over ourselves, become humble and easily entreated.

This is an excellent article:

LDS.org - Ensign Article - Put Off the Natural Man, and Come Off Conqueror

Bruce R. McConkie was called of God by prophecy and by the laying on of hands. He was an apostle of the Lord and His messenger. He was a witness of Christ. He made no apology for his contributions, which are many and good. It's time we look at ourselves deeper and become who we were meant to be.

I think you are misunderstanding the tone of the conversation. Nobody here is mad or angry that they need to "take a breath", and no one here has said they aren't sinners. I'm just gently objecting to the broad generalization about people who leave the LDS fold. Again, I'm not saying I don't have sin in my life (we all do), but sin or the desire for looser standards of behavior is not the reason I walked away from the LDS church. My decision was purely theological in nature.

[skalenfehl]

It seems early on some have. I just want to shout it from the rooftops, sometimes. I guess I got carried away, sorry. By the way, I edited my post and added more info. Your quote is incomplete.

[Guest lauracooke78]

I have already explained why I left. I felt that I couldn't live up to the demands of doing everything. There weren't enough hours in the day and I couldn't get by on less than 8 hours sleep. I felt I didn't belong and would never make it. I felt I hadn't been chosen by Heavenly Father to receive the Gospel and I had gone looking for it as opposed to missionaries seeking me out. I felt alien. I didn't dispute the doctrine or disbelieve it. I just didn't believe in me, us because it applied to my husband too. This was emphasised many times when we were shunned by the church members such as being sent off to the temple on our own for the first time with no escort. To my mind it was yet further confirmation that we we trying to be part of something where we didn't belong. We'd been in the church a little over a year so we didn't give up at the first hurdle. It was about the hundredth, but we were still fairly new.

My heart goes out to you Willow. That does not seem like a nice feeling to have, and shame on members for shunning you like that, that is unbecoming behaviour of members of the church. I had the feeling of being shunned as a youth, but I don't know what it would feel like to feel shunned by the adult population of a ward (it seems so childish that type of behaviour).

I hope you have healed from this??

[Guest HEthePrimate]

I thought I'd throw this quote out from the late Bruce R. McConkie to stimulate discussion on the topic.

This post is not being directed at anyone here or elsewhere.

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal. It is not a matter of rejecting gospel doctrine, or preferring a more liberal interpretation, these are excuses. The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.” (DNTC 3:426-427)

Interesting topic. While on the one hand I agree with Brother McConkie that one reason people leave the Church is because of sin/lusts of the flesh, I have to disagree that that is the only reason people do so. I know one fellow who's an RM and used to be active in the Church, but then stopped believing in the doctrine for various reasons and no longer attends Church regularly. And I'm pretty sure that he has not committed any major transgressions. In fact, it is my opinion that he's a better Christian than some active LDS.

Elder McConkie's quote, while containing some truth, is simply too absolute to be completely true in this matter. IMO.

DH

[skalenfehl]

As mentioned earlier, this is probably why McConkie didn't say it was the only reason. He only said it was the basic reason (cause).

[KosherXMorg]

As mentioned earlier, this is probably why McConkie didn't say it was the only reason. He only said it was the basic reason (cause).

ba·sic Audio Help /ˈbeɪsɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bey-sik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or forming a base; fundamental: a basic principle; the basic ingredient.

Your not making it any better by saying it's the basic reason. What you are saying is the fundamental reason or the basis for people leaving is desire to follow the world and indulge in the lusts of the flesh.

[lilered]

It seems to me that everyone who has posted has agreed that there are many reasons members quit attending church and/or leave the church. I doubt there is anyone posting who can definetly attest to a "basic" reason and do so with any type of evidence to support that conclusion.

Likewise, I doubt any of us have enough information to take serious issue with BM statement and I for one do not know what caused him reach his conclusion.

[skalenfehl]

ba·sic Audio Help /ˈbeɪsɪk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bey-sik] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation

–adjective 1. of, pertaining to, or forming a base; fundamental: a basic principle; the basic ingredient.

Your not making it any better by saying it's the basic reason. What you are saying is the fundamental reason or the basis for people leaving is desire to follow the world and indulge in the lusts of the flesh.

I'm not sure if this perspective has been shared but I'll offer it anyway using my initial analogy of Lucifer's rebellion in the war in heaven where he was cast out along with a third of the hosts of heaven.

Lucifer, the son of morning, knew the plan of salvation. He knew who God is and what truth is. He opposed it. He rebelled. The basic, fundamental ingredient causing this was pride. He wanted all of God's glory. He apostatized.

Now fast forward thousands of years to Bruce R. McConkie and let us say for argument's sake that the absolute God's truth is found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. People who have gained a testimony of truth and lose it is because of sin, whether sin of commission or sin of omission. Anytime we do anything contrary to the Lord's will is a sin. Consider the brother of Jared. Although he had a relationship with the Lord and spoke to him, he still neglected to pray daily, regularly and the Lord chastised him for it. Such a simple act is a sin. Slothfulness is a sin of the flesh.

I believe that some sins are much more grievous than others, but nonetheless they are sins, small as they may be. Consider the witnesses of the gold plates who fell away. Most never came back but some did. But none ever, and I emphasize, never denied their testimony of having seen the gold plates. They fell away due to weakness of the flesh, unable to abide God's laws, of which they once had a testimony.

I personally see no problem with McConkie's quote. Respectfully.

[Guest lauracooke78]

Now this one will get me in trouble, oh well...

IF BRM was the one recieving revelation to valuable to be presented to the unprepared masses of the LDS church, why did YHWH take him at a relatively young age for an apostles. Seems YHWH moved him out of his place so he couldn't become church president, which the LDS normally reserve for those men who could potentially "lead the church astray". Are you saying he would've led the church astray with true principles?

LOL, come-on now Kosher, that was taking my words out of context. There is a difference between truth that is not yet going to be conceivable to the general church population, and false doctrine which would lead them away. Thanks for you try though.

[Guest User-Removed]

I'm not sure if this perspective has been shared but I'll offer it anyway using my initial analogy of Lucifer's rebellion in the war in heaven where he was cast out along with a third of the hosts of heaven.

Lucifer, the son of morning, knew the plan of salvation. He knew who God is and what truth is. He opposed it. He rebelled. The basic, fundamental ingredient causing this was pride. He wanted all of God's glory. He apostatized.

Now fast forward thousands of years to Bruce R. McConkie and let us say for argument's sake that the absolute God's truth is found in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. People who have gained a testimony of truth and lose it is because of sin, whether sin of commission or sin of omission. Anytime we do anything contrary to the Lord's will is a sin. Consider the brother of Jared. Although he had a relationship with the Lord and spoke to him, he still neglected to pray daily, regularly and the Lord chastised him for it. Such a simple act is a sin. Slothfulness is a sin of the flesh.

I believe that some sins are much more grievous than others, but nonetheless they are sins, small as they may be. Consider the witnesses of the gold plates who fell away. Most never came back but some did. But none ever, and I emphasize, never denied their testimony of having seen the gold plates. They fell away due to weakness of the flesh, unable to abide God's laws, of which they once had a testimony.

I personally see no problem with McConkie's quote. Respectfully.

Professor Matthews had this to say about the War in Heaven:

"The war was severe, and it had eternal consequences. Evet}rkind

of sin (with the possible exception of sins involving death) was.

present in that premortal state, and there were many casualties. Repentance

was in order for all who sinned; and forgiveness in that

premortal life .was available through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience

to the plan of salvation. (D&C 93:38.) This was not a war just

of words and debate and forensics. It was a war of misdeeds, lies,

hatred, pride, jealousy, remorse, envy, cursing, blasphemy, deception,

theft, cajoling, slander, anger, and sins of almost every kind that are

also known in mortality. The issues were so well defined that coexistence

was not possible."

[skalenfehl]

Professor Matthews had this to say about the War in Heaven:

"The war was severe, and it had eternal consequences. Evet}rkind

of sin (with the possible exception of sins involving death) was.

present in that premortal state, and there were many casualties. Repentance

was in order for all who sinned; and forgiveness in that

premortal life .was available through faith in Jesus Christ and obedience

to the plan of salvation. (D&C 93:38.) This was not a war just

of words and debate and forensics. It was a war of misdeeds, lies,

hatred, pride, jealousy, remorse, envy, cursing, blasphemy, deception,

theft, cajoling, slander, anger, and sins of almost every kind that are

also known in mortality. The issues were so well defined that coexistence

was not possible."

Intriguing. Who exactly is Professor Matthews?

[Guest User-Removed]

Intriguing. Who exactly is Professor Matthews?

Robert J. Matthews is professor emeritus of ancient scripture and dean emeritus of religious education at Brigham Young University.

Robert J. Matthews

Robert J. Matthews - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Snow]

I thought I'd throw this quote out from the late Bruce R. McConkie to stimulate discussion on the topic.

This post is not being directed at anyone here or elsewhere.

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal. It is not a matter of rejecting gospel doctrine, or preferring a more liberal interpretation, these are excuses. The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.” (DNTC 3:426-427)

Based on my experiences - those I known and met - I'd say that applies to about 7 or 8 of every 10 that leave the Church, but that of those that leave the Church due to sin, only about 2 per 10 (or less) will admit it as the reason.

[gwozz]

While I enjoy the fellowship with the saints, that is not the reason I joined. For most of the 32 years of membership, I have not had a home teacher. With few exceptions, most members have not invited my family and me over to their homes, but on few occasions. I've constantly had busy callings in the Church, but most of my "friendships" only go so far as the connections that occur in the calling I'm in.

I can't count the thousands of miles I've driven, the number of times people have dropped the ball for me to pick up, etc. Yet I continue on, not because I'm something wonderful, but because I know it is true.

I don't go to Church for fellowship. If I make a friend, that's great. If I don't, I still continue on, because the true fellowship I seek is with God. And there's only one way to obtain it that I'm aware of.

I'm genuinely sorry that you both describe a non-friendly environment within the church! You both can come over to my house for dinner. That is really unfortunate that you don't feel that your hearts' are woven together in love and unity with the saints. Every member covenants to do that in baptism (msh18). The saints aren't perfect, thats for sure, and neither am I. One day, perhaps.

[mike_uk]

I am still a member but teetering on resignation but I can guarantee it has absolutely nothing at all to do with sin and everything to do with doctrine and history.

[WANDERER]

“The basic cause of apostasy is sin. Men leave the church because they are sensual and carnal. It is not a matter of rejecting gospel doctrine, or preferring a more liberal interpretation, these are excuses. The basic reason for rebellion is a desire to enjoy the lusts of the flesh.”

Do people leave a church in order to commit sin... or because they are not winning the battle against that desire to sin even though they are a member of a church.

It still makes Bruce R. McConkie's statement true though whether the coin is heads (I desire not to desire sin and church is not helping) or tails (I desire not to desire not to sin and church is not helping) .

[Guest User-Removed]

I am still a member but teetering on resignation but I can guarantee it has absolutely nothing at all to do with sin and everything to do with doctrine and history.

Would you mind sharing with us the "Doctrine" and "History" at the root of your contemplating leaving?

[Hemidakota]

Never matter the term we use or excuses to leave the church, it is still a sin of omission when a person leaves the faith.