Bruce R. McConkie & Apostasy

[WANDERER]

I'm assuming that Bruce R. McConkie's audience is not full of apostates....therefore he must be talking to members. Who is without sin? Therefore who has not rebelled? Who is making excuses? And lusts and desires of the flesh include pride,envy, greed and all the other things that are not fruits of the spirit. And the cause of apostacy is sin.

[skalenfehl]

I am still a member but teetering on resignation but I can guarantee it has absolutely nothing at all to do with sin and everything to do with doctrine and history.

I suppose in your case as in others' who have replied with your shared concern is the fact that you admittedly aren't footed on a solid foundation. The rains are coming and you are being washed away.

Matt. 7: 24-27

24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Chirst told Peter that the reason he knew of Christ's divinity was because His Father in Heaven had told him. This entire thread hinges on this rock which is Revelation.

Matt. 16:13-17

13 ¶ When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

It is through personal revelation by the power of the Holy Ghost that we know of a surety the church is true just as Peter knew that Christ was the Son of God. Those who have built upon this rock and then fall is due to sin. Those who have not fully built upon a rock (rely on anything other than God for truth) don't truly have a testimony.

We have never claimed that we are perfect or that our leaders are perfect. If Christ waited to find perfect men to call to the work of apostleship He would still be looking and Peter would have missed his calling. If God had waited until Joseph Smith or Gordon B. Hinckley or Thomas S. Monson to be perfect before calling them as prophets, they would never have been called. If our bishops wait for us to become perfect to ask us to pass the sacrament or to teach a Sunday School class or even attend the temple, the churches and temples would be empty. We aren't perfect and so the church's history isn't perfect. But God is perfect and His organization is. That is the rock upon which one needs to build. Those who are solidly planted upon this rock don't fall and when they do it is because of sin as Bruce R. McConkie explains. Plain and simple.

Respectfully.

[Hemidakota]

When a person questions the doctrines of the church, it is sorely do to his/her testimony foundation. When a person's testimony is based on a 'rock', he/she will look past the human errors and seek the everlasting Christ.

[KosherXMorg]

I am still a member but teetering on resignation but I can guarantee it has absolutely nothing at all to do with sin and everything to do with doctrine and history.

I'll tell you what I tell everybody I speak to in your situation... Don't give up on the Book of Mormon, there are other churches out there that believe in the Book of Mormon that are honest about history and acknowledge man's fingerprints on a lot of things, and despite ingrained thinking to the contrary it is very easy to be a Book of Mormon believer but not a "Mormon". God bless, write me anytime.

[KosherXMorg]

When a person questions the doctrines of the church, it is sorely do to his/her testimony foundation. When a person's testimony is based on a 'rock', he/she will look past the human errors and seek the everlasting Christ.

Well, the Catholic churches started out on the right foundation, perhaps I should look past the human errors in intervening years and join up with them?

[mike_uk]

I am sorry and I really dont want to hurt anyones feelings but the Book of Morman to me is just an immense hoax. There is absolutely nothing at all to back up its validity. Where is Zarahamla for instance? Why have they not found millions of bodies at Camorah. Where are all the weapons of war?

Massive poulations have been wiped out and not a single trace of them have been left behind. Please dont bring up the Mayan ruins etc.

There are a lot of huge problems in the Book of Mormon and if it is "the most correct book on earth" as Joseph said it was then something is seriously wrong here.

[KosherXMorg]

I am sorry and I really dont want to hurt anyones feelings but the Book of Morman to me is just an immense hoax. There is absolutely nothing at all to back up its validity. Where is Zarahamla for instance? Why have they not found millions of bodies at Camorah. Where are all the weapons of war?

Massive poulations have been wiped out and not a single trace of them have been left behind. Please dont bring up the Mayan ruins etc.

There are a lot of huge problems in the Book of Mormon and if it is "the most correct book on earth" as Joseph said it was then something is seriously wrong here.

Are you willing to look at things that support it or have you already made up your mind?

Cumorah? Do you think the final battle took place in upstate New York?

If you have already made up you mind just let me know I won't bother you again.

[WANDERER]

You can't base a testimony of faith on sin...in my opinion or understanding of things...it has to be on what is true. I don't know what is useful about listing what not to believe in aka I know that this church is not true because......this is why rejecting gospel doctrine doesn't cut it. What do you believe is true and why? What truth have you found?

[skalenfehl]

Well, the Catholic churches started out on the right foundation, perhaps I should look past the human errors in intervening years and join up with them?

Indeed the Catholic Church also claims to be built upon a rock. They claim it's Peter, himself. We claim it is revelation, which is how Peter knew that Christ was the Son of the Living God. We're going by semantics now, but Christ didn't say "you, Peter are the rock". He said upon this rock...

So was Christ referring to revelation or to something else, maybe Peter? And how do you know other than if God made it known to you. In other words for someone to say that something else is not true, for example to say that receiving revelation is untrue or that we don't need prophets is false, would essentially need to know this through revelation as well. Otherwise you're making assumptions.

I am sorry and I really dont want to hurt anyones feelings but the Book of Morman to me is just an immense hoax. There is absolutely nothing at all to back up its validity. Where is Zarahamla for instance? Why have they not found millions of bodies at Camorah. Where are all the weapons of war?

Massive poulations have been wiped out and not a single trace of them have been left behind. Please dont bring up the Mayan ruins etc.

There are a lot of huge problems in the Book of Mormon and if it is "the most correct book on earth" as Joseph said it was then something is seriously wrong here.

Mike, you're not hurting my feelings. The only thing that is absolutely wrong is that you don't have the whole picture. You're selling yourself short by assuming you have all the data. We have enough witnesses and it is the Law of Witnesses that God uses to reveal his truths not archaeological or anthropological evidences.

Christ did not tell Peter, blessed are thou Peter for finding all these evidences that God lives, or that Noah left an ark behind, etc. The Jews saw Christ and his miracles with their own eyes and still didn't believe. What greater witness than the Son of God can one have?? This is why Christ was pleased with Peter, because it wasn't Christ's own presence that solidified Peter's testimony. It was revelation and the witness of the Holy Ghost just as Moroni indicates in chapter 10 v. 3-5.

[mike_uk]

Glad to hear my opinion does not hurt your feelings. Im not here to cause trouble. I just have my own opinions as do you and I respect everyone beliefs.

My research and my conclusion has not happened over night. My study has been relentlless, almost hobby like. I have read the remarks to the common issues on fairlds etc but they are not convincing.

Even when it comes down to the witness's I have information from good sources which puts serious doubt on that being as we understand it. Just go out and research it, its there to be found and to ponder.

Now, I have been told time and time again by friends and family and the likes of online communities that they had a spiritual witness about the truthfulness of the church and the BoM, I once would have said the same thing. But what about the millions upon millions of catholics, baptists, protestants, Jehovas Wtness's, budhists, Sikhs, Moslims that claim to have a witness of the truthfulness of their own faith? What makes us any different?

What about the people that have earnestly prayed and asked if the church is true only to be told no and lead away? Specifically investigators?

About my own beliefs...well at the moment I just dont know. I will say I am not atheist. I cannot truly answer that yet.

I just cannot see how I can believe in a so called prophet that clearly got the translation of the papyrus wrong and gave us the Book of Abraham which is now scripture to us. The papyrus wa a funeral document about a priest called Hor. Absolutely nothing to do with Abraham whatsoever. A lot of our doctrine comes from there.

[Guest HEthePrimate]

In that case John Doe I guess my sin was in not feeling like I belonged and not being able to cope with some members of the Ward when I was comparatively new.

WillowTheWhisp,

Please don't take to heart all of the comments that have been made in this thread. Only you and God know if you have sinned, and it is not for other people to tell you or to judge you. The gospel is about relationships and about people, and the members of the Church are supposed to fellowship each other and become good, supportive friends. Sometimes Church members don't take the gospel seriously, though, and fail to welcome new people into their midst the way they ought to. Who can be blamed for not continuing to attend a church where they don't feel welcome?

Like other Church members, I sometimes fail to fellowship people properly, sometimes because I'm tired, or depressed, shy, or whatever. I hope I can be forgiven for that, and to do better in the future.

(((care)))

DH

[rameumptom]

Glad to hear my opinion does not hurt your feelings. Im not here to cause trouble. I just have my own opinions as do you and I respect everyone beliefs.

About my own beliefs...well at the moment I just dont know. I will say I am not atheist. I cannot truly answer that yet.

I just cannot see how I can believe in a so called prophet that clearly got the translation of the papyrus wrong and gave us the Book of Abraham which is now scripture to us. The papyrus wa a funeral document about a priest called Hor. Absolutely nothing to do with Abraham whatsoever. A lot of our doctrine comes from there.

I've spent decades on research, and I have to say I think the research on FAIR-LDS is rather good. In fact, there was an article written by two evangelical scholars once about "losing the battle and not realizing it", because the common anti/non-LDS level of research was overall very poor compared to the LDS studies.

There are many issues that have not been explained, except as "coincidences". When you have two or three things, then it is coincidence. However, when there are 40+ names in the BoM that Joseph hit correctly (unknown in his day), then it is no longer statistically a coincidence.

As for the Book of Abraham, it is because you do not understand Joseph's form of "translation." The gold plates were "translated" while usually closed. A letter that the apostle John wrote on parchment and hid under a rock, is "translated" into the D&C. The Bible is "translated", adding new chapters and sections that are not found in any Bible in Joseph's day.

IOW, his "translations" were not what we would call a translation, but more of a revelation based upon something he has to ponder. The papyri were a catalyst for a revelation on Abraham, just as the Bible was a catalyst to receive a revelation about Moses and Enoch.

As it is, the internal evidence of the BoA shows a knowledge of Abraham's day that at best only a few scholars knew in Joseph's day. No one else knew that there would later be found Egyptian papyri that have Abraham's name on them, for instance. Or that there are ancient legends of Abraham being sacrificed and teaching astronomy to the Egyptians.

BTW, Kerry Shirts has some great information on the Book of Abraham and evidences on his website and 3 DVDs available (sold at FAIR). Try watching his DVDs and then state that Joseph was entirely off. You'll be amazed at how correct Joseph really was.

It is like trying to explain how the Book of Moses talks of Enoch meeting up with a man named Mahijah in a land called Mahujah. Only in the Dead Sea Scrolls' version of Enoch do we find a man named Mahujah asking questions of Enoch! No where else is this available. Just where did Joseph get such information, when no one else until after 1947 had access to this?

To ignore such evidences, or to waive them off, is to suggest that a person really has not done much serious research on these topics, except to justify an already held point of view.

[Guest HEthePrimate]

I hope nobody comes away from this thread thinking Elder McConkie was some kind of judgemental guy. He was a good man who served the Church well. He also had strong opinions that were not necessarily in line with official Church doctrine. That's ok--everybody's entitled to their opinions. What we need to keep in mind is that just because Elder McConkie (or any other General Authority) said something, doesn't mean it's Church doctrine or policy.

One thing that Elder McConkie was wrong about was blacks and the priesthood. He believed that blacks would never receive the priesthood in this mortal life. There was a BYU professor who privately disagreed and wrote a letter to Elder McConkie saying so. Later, after the priesthood had been extended to the blacks, Elder McConkie wrote a letter back to the professor saying (I paraphrase) "You were right, I was wrong. Don't rub it in!"

So, I'm making two points here: 1. Even GAs have personal opinions, and 2. Elder McConkie was a good man.

DH

[Guest User-Removed]

I hope nobody comes away from this thread thinking Elder McConkie was some kind of judgemental bastard. He was a good man who served the Church well. He also had strong opinions that were not necessarily in line with official Church doctrine. That's ok--everybody's entitled to their opinions. What we need to keep in mind is that just because Elder McConkie (or any other General Authority) said something, doesn't mean it's Church doctrine or policy.

One thing that Elder McConkie was wrong about was blacks and the priesthood. He believed that blacks would never receive the priesthood in this mortal life. There was a BYU professor who privately disagreed and wrote a letter to Elder McConkie saying so. Later, after the priesthood had been extended to the blacks, Elder McConkie wrote a letter back to the professor saying (I paraphrase) "You were right, I was wrong. Don't rub it in!"

So, I'm making two points here: 1. Even GAs have personal opinions, and 2. Elder McConkie was a good man.

DH

First off your post is insulting to both the memory of Elder McConkie and to the subject at hand...

If you read my original post, you'll see that the quote printed came from "Doctrinal New Testiment Commentary"...Elder McConkie to the day he crossed the veil, always took full responsibility for everything he published...NEVER ...in anyone of his many works...did he ever claim that what he writing was anything other than his views on the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as he saw them.

Now, when he spoke during Conference or at BYU Devotionals...he took a different tact.

I have heard that when he was "asked" concerning a section in Mormon Dcotrine concerning this issue...he simply replied that based on the recent Revelation..."I was wrong"...

Today is the first time I've heard it put like you've put it...Might you have a link for that? or could you possibly be related to the late Paul H. Dunn <offered in jest>

[gwozz]

I am sorry and I really dont want to hurt anyones feelings but the Book of Morman to me is just an immense hoax. There is absolutely nothing at all to back up its validity. Where is Zarahamla for instance? Why have they not found millions of bodies at Camorah. Where are all the weapons of war?

Massive poulations have been wiped out and not a single trace of them have been left behind. Please dont bring up the Mayan ruins etc.

There are a lot of huge problems in the Book of Mormon and if it is "the most correct book on earth" as Joseph said it was then something is seriously wrong here.

If your basing all your belief in God on scientific findings, you'll never find him...

[WillowTheWhisp]

First off your post is insulting to both the memory of Elder McConkie and to the subject at hand...

Actually I found it to be quite the opposite. I have fond memories of Elder McConkie and his own admission that he could occasionally be wrong shows strength of character in my opinion.

[Snow]

I just cannot see how I can believe in a so called prophet that clearly got the translation of the papyrus wrong and gave us the Book of Abraham which is now scripture to us. The papyrus wa a funeral document about a priest called Hor. Absolutely nothing to do with Abraham whatsoever. A lot of our doctrine comes from there.

You said that you teetering on the brink of resignation comes from doctrine... but I don't hear you complaining about doctrine; rather you seemed bothered about either Joseph Smith's dishonesty or delusions or inabilities as a translator - not that I think those things apply to JS but that is the implication of your post.

A couple of questions then:

1. Do you have any doctrinal complaint with the Book of Abraham> What is it? Why?

2. You seem convinced that we are in possession of the specific papyri from which JS translated the BoA. Why are you so certain?

[Snow]

First off your post is insulting to both the memory of Elder McConkie and to the subject at hand...

If you read my original post, you'll see that the quote printed came from "Doctrinal New Testiment Commentary"...Elder McConkie to the day he crossed the veil, always took full responsibility for everything he published...NEVER ...in anyone of his many works...did he ever claim that what he writing was anything other than his views on the Gospel of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ as he saw them.

Huh? What did the poster say that was insulting (besides a poor choice of language). The post seemed perfectly reasonable.

I have heard that when he was "asked" concerning a section in Mormon Dcotrine concerning this issue...he simply replied that based on the recent Revelation..."I was wrong"...

What he said was:

“There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.”

“We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.”

“It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.”

- Bruce R. McConkie, 1978 (All Are Alike Unto God, A SYMPOSIUM ON THE BOOK OF MORMON, The Second Annual Church Educational System Religious Educator’s Symposium, August 17-19, 197

[Guest User-Removed]

Actually I found it to be quite the opposite. I have fond memories of Elder McConkie and his own admission that he could occasionally be wrong shows strength of character in my opinion.

The use of a derogatory swear word in the same breath as the name of an Apostle is certainly "declasse" at best....I won't even fathom a comment beyond that...

[Guest User-Removed]

“There are statements in our literature by the early brethren which we have interpreted to mean that the Negroes would not receive the priesthood in mortality. I have said the same things, and people write me letters and say, “You said such and such, and how is it now that we do such and such?” And all I can say to that is that it is time disbelieving people repented and got in line and believed in a living, modern prophet. Forget everything that I have said, or what President Brigham Young or President George Q. Cannon or whomsoever has said in days past that is contrary to the present revelation. We spoke with a limited understanding and without the light and knowledge that now has come into the world.”

“We get our truth and our light line upon line and precept upon precept. We have now had added a new flood of intelligence and light on this particular subject, and it erases all the darkness and all the views and all the thoughts of the past. They don’t matter any more.”

“It doesn’t make a particle of difference what anybody ever said about the Negro matter before the first day of June of this year.”

- Bruce R. McConkie, 1978 (All Are Alike Unto God, A SYMPOSIUM ON THE BOOK OF MORMON, The Second Annual Church Educational System Religious Educator’s Symposium, August 17-19, 197

Thanks, Snow that was the quote...Good Job...

[VisionOfLehi]

The use of a derogatory swear word in the same breath as the name of an Apostle is certainly "declasse" at best....I won't even fathom a comment beyond that...

The fact that you don't realize he was saying that the Apostle WASN'T that, and that you're so easily offended, is a little beyond me.

Motes, beams, right hands, etc.

[Guest User-Removed]

The fact that you don't realize he was saying that the Apostle WASN'T that, and that you're so easily offended, is a little beyond me.

Motes, beams, right hands, etc.

You got the "Out of the mouths of Babes" Award for the R rated movie comment...

Lemme call the Big Kahuna...and see if we can share the "Straining at Gnats" Award????

[VisionOfLehi]

You got the "Out of the mouths of Babes" Award for the R rated movie comment...

Lemme call the Big Kahuna...and see if we can share the "Straining at Gnats" Award????

Sounds good.

While we're exchanging awards, I'd like to hand you your "Most likely to annoy the collective Mod Squad enough with perpetual slight- and borderline-rule breaking to earn a ban."

Enjoy! :)

[Guest User-Removed]

Sounds good.

While we're exchanging awards, I'd like to hand you your "Most likely to annoy the collective Mod Squad enough with perpetual slight- and borderline-rule breaking to earn a ban."

Enjoy! :)

Ya know...There's a special place in Heaven for folks who keep you folks on your toes...One day, when you've received your Endowment...I might 'splain it to ya...

[WillowTheWhisp]

The use of a derogatory swear word in the same breath as the name of an Apostle is certainly "declasse" at best....I won't even fathom a comment beyond that...

But his comment was in response to people who may have drawn that conclusion and pointing out that it was an erroneous one.