Islander

AJ: You just discredited yourself. You just got to the site under the claim of trying to sincerely inquire and learn. And you come out guns blazing quoting 2 Ne, D&C and the Journal of Discourses? Dude, I am a convert, I was an investigator, I spent years looking for a church, reading, researching in 4 languages and it took me a very long time to get to the details. Your story is just not credible. I sincerely wish you well but I am done.

Amen: In my years of searching for a church, many times I felt that certain "brands" of Christianity were "barely Christian." To call oneself a disciple, a follower of the way and true believer in Christ we MUST follow in His footsteps and do as He did. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Matt 5:48

AJ: Rather than this endless and pointless argument, why don't you read the Book of Mormon and when you get to a scripture that you do not understand come and ask a specific question.

Using the bible as your ONLY point of reference will take you nowhere, as demonstrated by the hundreds of garden variety religious sects currently in the world. More over, the bible does have internal contradictions. It was compiled by men, replicated by men and translated by men. Again, variances across translations and interpretations by congregations (Eastern Orthodox vs Roman order). Archaeological scholarship, linguistics, among other disciplines have shed light into the texts and revisions have been made over the years. The selection of the very cannon of scripture that we hold to be the inspired word of God and revere by Christians suffered changes over the years and some books were removed and others added. To this day some books used in the Roman Church which are not used by the evangelical churches. As Justice pointed above, if you think you already know the answer then the exercise (studying LDS scriptures) is futile. Those who knew the most in Israel accuse the very Law Giver of breaking the Law and suggested He was of the devil. What more can we say.

Thank you

Tyler above was very eloquent. I just wanted to ad that your questions denote the fact that you have a very limited understanding of Christianity in particular and or religion in general. I suggest that without a clear insight into who God is and why we seek to understand His purposes for us you will not get very far. Your assertion that it would be "good for him" (your husband) but not for you could not be further from the truth. but again, it is clear that you do not understand, your are not there yet. As far as joining the Church just to be supportive, I agree with the post above. It makes no sense at all. It is not a fraternal organization or a social group. You do not owe allegiance to a group of people but membership means you are seeking a covennant with God Himself and desire to join His people.

My point exactly. After 30 pages of posts, some clarity emerged on your part as to what we actually believe about faith and works. It would have taken you about 1 hour of reading and you would have arrived at the same place minus the contention and animosity. I suggest it is important for you to really question your motivations and the true intent of your heart for being here. We know what you have been taught, we know what you believe and your contribution by way of posting has been plentiful. Our witness is simple: We hold, as you do, that the bible is inspired of God and it is an intrinsic part of our cannon as well. What we have, share and invite all men to do is to study and ponder, to pray and to ask God in regards to the witness and revelation that has come to us in the latter days, namely The Book of Mormon. It does not negate or deride existing scripture but clarifies. It offer another witness of the divinity of Christ, of his ministry, mission, mercy towards the children of God and unequivocal assertion that Salvation is of Him, by Him and thru Him. It is Him whom we worship and who directs the affairs of His Church thru His appointed servants today, for He lives and reveals His will and order to those who desire to listen to His voice. And we strive to live our lives according His commandments in humility for we all sin and fall short of His glory but His mercy and redemption is our bright hope for salvation and exaltation. And we labor to spread the Gospel, the good news of which you also spoke, to the whole world. So ALL come to know the Lord and Redeemer of mankind and be saved. I sincerely pray you will consider the above. I also pray that you would ponder in your heart what questions you may have and seek to first research in detail. And once you have exhausted the material then come back and ask but not in the spirit of contention, but to sincerely attempt to understand.

To ALL of us as well. The issue here is according to what I have seen thus far, that it is unclear what you are seeking here in the forum. Realize that nothing you have said so far is novel or different from what every other non-LDS poster have shared in the past. There are 1000's of posts carbon copy, almost with what you have shared. See, you just got here but we have been around for years. So, the skepticism is about your desire to contend before you have taken the time to research the wealth of information already here. It is a well traveled road, I promise you. You are entitled to your beliefs and we only claim the same privileged. The argument is as old as the hills and the life of the Savior is a testimony to the fact that the truth and facts about God often time escape the learned and the erudite for no reason other than the fact that they closed their ears to it; for they supposed they already knew.

none!!!

I was in UT this past weekend, Mother's day, and I have to admit was troubled by the references to "Heavenly Mother" during a couple of the meetings. What troubles me is that, as mentioned above, there is no doctrine or specific revelation/teaching shared by the prophets in that regard. We should not confuse mention with declaration. There are many things that are real but that we should not be concerned with in general. I suggest this is one of them.

THere are additional crisis brewing in the horizong that will come to a boil in the next 18 months or so. This administration will be tasked with making a decision about wha to do. It will be interesting to see the argument they will use. Like I mentioned before, it is not situational ethics or cost/benefit analysis. But we can not interfere in every conflict and even if we do, most times nothing really will change. Some of the most embarrassing moments for the country happened right after the Tsunami in South East Asia. The US sent billions in humanitarian aid, being the first to arrive in the region to help with rescue and disasters relief. We were told to drop off the relief and leave. You heard nothing on CNN about it. Almost 500,000 people died and the new coverage evaporated quite quickly. One of the largest relief operations in modern history and we never received a public acknowledgment of the aid rendered. What most people missed was the fact that Indonesia is the largest Islamic country in the world, percentage wise. American history, values, laws and government are significantly different from the rest of the world. We keep forgetting that nobody else in the planet understands our social experiment. Any attempt we make to share and replicate it is met with resistance and rejection. We should ONLY offer the Gospel for what it is; the absolute truth about God's plan for his children and leave the government (to Caesar) to itself.

Well, here are my two cents on this issue. If you've been to public school, you know that even if you try to hide and avoid EVERYBODY the day will come when you are going to have to fight somebody over your lunch money, snacks or just to be left alone. What happens during that fight determines if you are going to have to fight just that time, everyday or once a year, or maybe never again. I am glad I am neither a politician not a commanding officer in the US army. We have gone about this conflict in the ME the wrong way. Primarily because we have ignored history, experience and factual intelligence in favor of State Department driven policies and strategy generated by Ivy-League people whose only experience in geopolitics is the foreign film festival week at Baltimore's Grand theater and late nights at the Yale library. I truly believe that during the last decade the administration tried but failed because of lack of true insight into the geopolitics involved in the conflicts around the world, the politicization of the intelligence organization and the hesitation inside the intelligence community on account of past punishment dispensed by past administrations. We have not executed as it should and thus here we are almost 10 years later. And last, I would quote and paraphrase a hero of mine: "Now ye [all of you enemies of democracy and freedom] see that this is the true faith of God; yea, ye see that God will support, and keep, and preserve us, so long as we are faithful unto him, and unto our faith, and our religion; and never will the Lord suffer that we shall be destroyed except we should fall into transgression and deny our faith. And now, [you that lie to the meek and ignorant pretending to speak and stand for the word of God] , I command you, in the name of that all-powerful God, who has strengthened our arms that we have gained power over you, by our faith, by our religion, and by our rites of worship, and by our church, and by the sacred support which we owe to our wives and our children, by that liberty which binds us to our lands and our country; yea, and also by the maintenance of the sacred word of God, to which we owe all our happiness; and by all that is most dear unto us— Yea, and this is not all; I command you by all the desires which ye [should] have for [the] life [of your children and families], that ye deliver up your weapons of war unto us, and we will seek not your blood, but we will spare your lives, if ye will go your way [and stop trying to use terror, fear and intimidation as a way to subdue the world and those that do not share your distorted ways and means of worship] and come not again to war against us. And now, if ye do not this, behold, ye are in our hands, and I will command my men that they shall fall upon you, and [and seek after you across the sea, in every land and in the hole of the rocks wherever you may seek to hide] inflict the wounds of death in your bodies, that ye may become extinct [for good and never come to war against us again]; and then we will see who shall [bring freedom and liberty] have [and give] power over [to] this people. Alma 44

hahaahaha!!! You are right!!!

Yep, I have been to Congo, Guinea, Cabo Verde, Angola, Ethiopia, Somalia, Syria...among others. Really unpleasant neighborhoods, I tell you.

Yep, my question exactly...

Well, my friend, it so happens that somebody HAS to be in charge and take the initiative. Government by consensus has never worked. Beyond that, the inter dependencies in the planet run deep. We are discussing global geopolitics on a forum hosted in the US, on a server with parts made in Taiwan, Malaysia and Singapore, assembled in the US by Mexican workers, with an OS loaded by Indian programmers so that members in 40 countries can share their thoughts in their Chinese assembled computers powered by electricity generated by turbines made in Germany and fueled by oil from the Middle East. Got that? Yeah, they are not ulterior motives but operating realities that can not be avoided in today's globalized environment.

Compassion fatigue. What the American people are realizing is that war, death, disease, hunger, conflict and strife are the norm in the world and has been from the beginning of mankind. Global sources of information and access to it on demand has created greater awareness of current conditions rather. We can not possibly interfere in every conflict currently taking place in the world. We have to be pragmatic and exert influence where we believe it will do the most good, benefit the most and we are able to develop prospects for long lasting solutions/peace. Some of these conflicts are ancestral strugles that will never be resolved. Not in this lifetime, anyhow. The level of insight, thinking and philosophical frame of reference of the people MUST increase as to be able to develop high level analysis and solutions for their problems, such well above the mental stage at which they were created. History is a good teacher. we happen to be very bad students.

Thank you much for sharing this concept so clearly. Often times I skip the subject with others since they seem to be fixed into what they have been taught that they are unwilling to scrutinize the scriptures or open their mind to new insights thru the Spirit.

:):):)...:rolleyes:

If they make me a MOD, you will see the announcement in the forum, and you should stay in for as long as can. Because that could be the last time you may be able to log in. You will see your avatar hanging on a fisherman's hook and the letters across the screen: YOU HAVE BEEN BANNED!!! HAHAHA!!! I tried bribing Pam, I even sent her some money via Western Union but no takers....I'm still plotting.

Jim, show me a scientific journal entry, a research paper. There are some references here and there but not thousands. But again, I guess you made up your mind so we should agree to have a difference on this one.

Gooooosh, chillax man. It was just an expression. I showed you that yes, it does snow in Israel every year. So now you do know that Nephi was talking about something he had witnessed. We also know that it snows in the north, not in the south. That should give you an idea of where Lehi would have lived with his family, which makes sense given their tribal affiliations. Of course we do not know for sure, and there are a million other things we do not know with certainty but with three out of four you can triangulate. Keep it simple; the OP asked about snow and that issue was settled.

True. But even in Israel which a very tiny country, there is controversy today about where certain cities were located. It takes time, a long time to assemble a more or less coherent picture of a place or event that transpired thousands of years ago. For a hundred years archeologist and historians said there was no such things as writing in metal plates. Now we know that in fact the Hebrews did write in copper plates. Other gold and silver plates have appeared since. Compare 20 million miles of landmass in the American continent to a bit over 20,000 square miles in Israel and 2000 years of documented history by Christianity. The BoM is a record of a very small group of people that became extinct. We have no reference points or extant sources as of yet. It will take time but not that it matters. For 2000 years Christianity survived without archaeological evidence.

Hey, hold your horses Paco!!! It is true we do not have any specifics about where Lehi lived. But we know that Lehi did not live in the city of Jerusalem. They probably lived north of Jerusalem in the plains that surround the Jordan River. Remember, they are descendants of Manasseh and that is the geographical area/land of their inheritance. Beyond that and although the weather may have changed in the last 2500 years somewhat, it snows pretty much exclusively north of Jerusalem. This is what I speak of when I said that the BoM lays out facts that unless you have been there or studied the region they may escape casual reading. Nephi points to that fact: 2 Nephi 25 Feel better now?

I suggest modern English is to blame for the semantic upheaval. Until just recently faith was utilized almost exclusively in reference to deity, when God was involved. We tend to interchange the words now but when we speak of "matters of faith" everybody recognizes we are speaking about religion. We can hope for many things, but our faith is in Christ. After our faith has been strengthen by the many miracles our Lord has done for us our hope becomes unstoppable. For then we know that we can hope to reach new highs and do all things by the hand of God. Just my take on the subject.