Islander

The West is notorious for producing highly idealistic philosophical social constructs. They keep ignoring the human element and the very tangible and overwhelming reality that 80% of the world population DOES NOT live in the West and that all this theoretical societies might as well be science fiction to them. For 100 years we have tried to export Western values like non-violent conflict resolution, social civility, religious tolerance, gender equality, charity, democratic expressions, tolerance for ideological diversity. It has not worked and it will never worked. Social philosophies without real foundation are just fads to be swept away by the next wave of thinking. They are by definition not sustainable since it requires the kind of uniformity of thought that is unheard of in human existence. The last 10,000 years prove that man-made social systems are ALL flawed. Since non-violent mind control/cloning is still in the works, I expect this Venus Project and Zeitgeist movement to be just another waste of print paper and a dot in the internet traffic. I am not holding my breath.

You should pray for the Spirit to touch your heart and to feel God's presence and His influence in your life before you can expect to have a spiritual experience. You will not get one just because you want one. You should seek to develop the faith it takes to gain a spiritual witness of the Gospel and and the Restoration.

Right....he occupies the top floor in hell....you know he's got to keep up with appearances....and impress his guests....hehehehe that's what grandma just to say.

I think the statement from Guy is too bold to be polite. But, harsh as it may seem there is significant truth in it. I have a dozen friends that got in trouble and lost their homes. Now, with cool heads and in the midst of a humbling experience, they all recognized they got well over their heads. They bought into the exuberance and the scheme that you could buy a million dollar home, make minuscule payments on an exotic loan for 3-4 years, gain 20% appreciation value, sell and cash out into another home. Yeah, they see it now. Be it greed, foolish hope or sheer ignorance but they fell for it. I am having trouble being sympathetic with the investors that funded those loans. It is called risk capital. So, yeah, stupid may be a strong word and perhaps not PC but we can play semantics till the devil's penthouse freezes over. PS: By the way, where is our friend PC the Mod these days?

Soul: Most of the Archeologists and other researchers that spend their lives digging around in Israel are secular people. No amount of evidence is ever going to give you a testimony of the reality of God and the Gospel. We know about Genesis from Moses. Guess what, it happen an ion before he was born and non of us were there. Do you question Genesis? In fact, other than the biblical accounts, we have no evidence of any kind for most of the events described there. It seems you are experiencing a spiritual crisis of sorts. As I suspected, your current struggles are not the problem but symptoms of the problem you are currently facing. The fork in the road before you is simple. Are you seeking evidence to believe or not to believe? You seem already biased on the side of denial by your statements that "it all seems too convenient.". Food for thought. On a tangent and given that I think I have a slightly better view of you situation, I would like to answer a question you posed before about being yourself. We are useless to God's purposes and incapable of fulfilling our eternal destiny "just as we are." We must become a new creature in Christ. We have to live, in thought and in deed, with every intent to be like Him, to think like Him. We must give up the desire to please ourselves and develop a burning desire to please our Heavenly Father. Long ago I pondered standing before a very sophisticated electronic component. It was deemed to be scrapped. Several months of work and hundreds of thousands in cost. But it failed the crucial tests. It was not viable for the purposes it was designed and created and it could not be fixed. The reality of the event stayed with me for years. Will you seek God with all you heart and mind as to uncover His plan for you, or will you insist on your own course, your own ideas and life plan for yourself running the risk that it will not match His?

And you are how old?

The article is solid on facts. Media and academia long ago stopped reporting and researching. They moved on to opinion shaping and ideologically driven event showcasing. It is a sad tale when the public no longer takes the time to research and inquire. Most seem content to hope for a handout.

There is no correlation between the financial crisis and wanting to redesign health care in this country. There is no relationship between the credit crunch and wanting to throw away free trade agreements, killing efficiency measures like outsourcing or increasing taxes on the top 5 percent earners in the country. It has nothing to do with nationalizing mortgage insurance, commercial insurance and forcing organized labor on every employer in the country. It is called position assertion thru crisis. You seize on a crisis situation to change everything you want although not even remotely related to the crisis. I happen to know a thing or two about artificially created political change.

hahahahaha!!!! Oh that was just funny!!! yeah...the blond stereotypes are alive and well...there goes a contributor.

Greed, unreasonable and unsustainable lending/borrowing, unrealistic exuberance and arrogance is what precipitated this crisis. There is enough blaming to go around in every quarter.

Thank you Faded: You are absolutely right in your assessment of the situation. I just suggested to Jim10 that his opinions do not equate to facts. This is an issue I had studied in great detail years ago, me being black and this issue of race a significant point offered by the critics. I spent quite a few hours researching this issue and later pondering and praying about it. His opinion based on a couple of bi-liners from anti-Mormon sites is voided of the facts. His refusal to discuss the fact is what I found annoying and frustrating. Again, I acknowledged that he is entitled to his own opinion but to present those as facts for a characterization of LDS history is just contention for the sake of it.

You are being so kind. I take my hat off to you for these kind, conciliatory words. It is a skill that I am sorely lacking. But even children MUST learn that feelings do not equate to facts. Magical thinking can not be a substitute for rational analysis. Some people refuse to be confused by the facts because they already made up their minds. These forums are the wrong place for that mindset.

Do you notice that people have asked you to respond to a number of questions and offered you scriptures for you to comment and you just refused to do so? I would agree that it is racism if you also agree then that the Savior was racist because He discriminated against Samaritans and others. Your statement denotes gross ignorance of the facts as demonstrated by LDS history. Beyond that, what you share is just your opinion. If all you have to offer in the exchange is your opinion then I guess we should agree to disagree.

The Gospel requires us to do certain things that are totally counter intuitive according to the "wisdom" of the world. Many times you will not understand a principle until you live by it. Theorizing, theologizing or any other kind of philosophical exercise will not get you any closer to understanding doctrine and the mind of God. And, of course, difficult as it may be to accept, your own opinions are not very relevant when it comes to the things of God.

This would be funny if it was not so annoying...Jim, you have come to preach to the choroid. Pal, there are people in this forum (members of the Church and non-members) that have been studying the scriptures longer than you, with a witness of the Savior that would take you a lifetime to acquire and folks that know history by an order of magnitude more than you. You are entitled to your opinion but when you try to offer it as fact you are walking on quick sand. Not everything is offered or available to ALL people at all times. Out of the billion humans living on the earth on 33 AD, only 2 million knew about the one TRUE God. The rest died without any knowledge of such, they were prohibited from worshiping in the Temple even if they would have made it to Jerusalem. Last night 20,000 people died without knowing that Jesus is Lord and Savior of mankind. Today, 2 billion people have NEVER heard the name of Jesus Christ. Your generalizations apply to any other Church you like, but not the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints for He directs its affairs and guides by revelation thru His prophet and those are the facts whether you agree with them or not. "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you." Mat 7:6 "And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to adogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table." Mat 15:22-27 Yes, pray, pray my brother that the Spirit may reveal to you the truth, that you may seek to know the things of God as revealed by Him and not by the opinions of men and the wisdom of men.

I think it varies from person to person. I am a convert of ten years and I have kept in touch with a dozen or so missionaries that I worked with in my first 2-3 years. We were involved in such an exciting work in my area that the experience was just unforgettable. I was the ward mission leader for about a year and later the stake mission president and went on hundreds of appointments with the elders. We baptized 300 new members in 2 years in my ward alone and split by the end of the second year. It was just a true wonder in an area that for 30 years had only 40 families in a small branch. I have gone to a dozen weddings in CA, UT, NV, just to name a few in the last 10 years, of those same elders that served in my area. We have an album in our home with pictures and notes about the elders that served in our ward and I have written extensively about some of the experiences I have working with the missionaries. I currently serve in the bishopric in my ward but my true passion is missionary work. And you can't avoid becoming friends with some of the brethren with whom you serve.

With all due respect and with no intent or desire for contention, you are sorely mistaken and as you are not a member of the church you are ill equipped to discuss this issue with any meaninful insight. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion but in this case it does not amount to much.

Soul: Another item for reflection is that YOU have focused on those issues. Your MIL has never had Coke. Why would you antagonize with this her decision (let's ignore for a sec whether she is right or wrong) and make this a point of contention. Why would you wear a dress that is too revealing/distracting/less-than-holy-thoughts-provoking to go to Sacrament...knowing full well it will elicit the "dirty looks" from some (again, ignore the quality of the membership) in the congregation? I totally get where you are coming from. However, rather than focusing on these issues, which keep you from experiencing worship and fellowship to the fullest, find a different way, time, avenue and vehicle to express your individuality. I suspect you have a rebel streak, but I will not hold it against you.....just this time.:):):)

It will serve well to some to READ the OP and early responses. The argument here is two fold; one the right to do whatever they desire as long as it has not been deemed illegal by the law of the land. That is a no-brainier. GOD in the other hand, we believe, has dictated HIS own law and commanded us to behave in a certain way regardless of the man-made laws. The moral and religious objection to suicide comes from those who hold that God's law is supreme. Getting into the humanistic aspect of the debate is kind of a useless exercise since some people can and do believe what they will and claim whatsoever right suits them to satisfy their needs. What is a fact of social history is that morality as a concept has been eroded, ethics as a concept has been eroded, life as sacred is no longer, the definition of family has been convoluted to fit a man made "modern" construct and the basic rights afforded in the constitution (as granted by God, by the way) have become whatever rights I happen to claim in order to accommodate my social agenda, even to the exclusion of God from the public conversation.

I appreciate the sentiment. The intent is good, the means naive and the outcome unsustainable. The US contributes 5 billion dollars to FAO every year and most of the food ends up in the black market in sub-Saharan Africa and Southeast Asia. We are the single largest donor of retro-viral medication for the treatment of HIV/AIDS to the tune of 1 billion a year, the largest UN contributor to agricultural development and small enterprise and micro-credits for business development in the third world. In sum, more of the US GDP ends up in the third world than is alocated for adult literacy programs in the US, for example. And, in the large scheme of things, it does very little good. Although CNN and CNBC do not report this, 40-60,000 people a day die in high conflict regions, another 20,000 will die of starvation before sundown and weapons fetch a better price per ounce of weight than weat. We can not export or teach our values and philosophical (government methodologies) world view to the poor of the world. It has not worked and it will never work. We have tried for a century. Without the Judeo-Christian foundation that led to a constitutional bedrock and frame of our nation; without the rule of law and the intrinsic awareness of it, and respect for it, without reasons and purpose that transcend mere purported man-made altruism; there is no system of governmen that will heal and save the world from its crude and base element; the natural man.

Got it. Not sure how to help but keep trying. Practice does make perfect.

I read these threads because they are so much fun!!! I just can not imagine the scenario, though. I have tried to visualize it but I just can't. I am a convert of 10 years and I was 28 when I was baptized. I am nowhere on earth a good looking guy by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I could walk into any place and people rarely noticed. However, within 3 months of my baptism I could have married half a dozen girls in the church. Dating and courtship is the most common and simple process in history. Have we grown so socially inept and unskilled that the traditional adage of "boy meets/likes girl, dates, proposes, marries girl" is a thing of the past?

God does punishes the wicked and the rebellious, no doubt about it. "And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not, neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away." 2 Ne 2:13 "The Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, saith; Behold, I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods, and their kings; even Pharaoh, and all them that trust in him:" Jer 46:25 "Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria." Jer 50:18 "The Lord spake also unto me again, saying, Forasmuch as this people refuseth the waters of Shiloah that go softly, and rejoice in Rezin and Remaliah’s son; Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces." Isa 8 5 thru 9. If this is not punishment I don't know what would qualify in your book. A little bit later, in the passage in Isaiah, the Lord brings the Assyrians into the land of Israel and just about destroyed everything. They took the the northern tribes as and dispersed them across the earth. Only Juda and Benjamin in the south survived because of the protection of the Lord as they did herken to the counsel of His prophet. There are other references and examples where the Lord did punish for sin and rebellion.

For all the idealism and theorizing in the West, MOST of the world remains in object poverty where death by violence and disease is the norm rather then the exception. The notion of "equality" is a Christian concept. The notions of charity, brotherly kindness, sharing and concerns fo the fellow man are ALL Christian constructs. Appropriating such values while "surgically" excising the religious root is just plain silly. It would be like discussing fine furniture and avoiding the word wood or tree during the conversation. We may mimic and even aspire to model cetain behavior (charity, for example) but without God at the center it is just another tool to feed our ego and gorge on the adulation of the droid populace. Without God at the center, no system of government designed by man will ever be successful in addressing the realities of life across the whole world.

For my life, I can not understand why they have to push the sexual innuendo in movie for children!!!