bytor2112

Alleluia.......you really don't understand what we believe. You may think you do...but you don't.....and that is the problem. Perhaps talking to some missionaries or reading through some related threads would clarify your understanding of our beliefs. May I suggest being polite and respectful? Calling the Prophet Joseph Smith a liar might ruffle some feathers and this is after all an LDS site. The truth about the "Mormons" is available...but you don't have it.

She must have just graduated from " how to witness to the Mormons and save their souls from damnation" class and decided to get right to work. I must say....she has given me some things to ponder.....:lol:

The Godhead is.......God the Father......Jesus Christ his only begotten and the Holy Ghost...and they are One God. One in prupose.....not substance. There purpose? "To bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man."

Hello Ceeboo...AKA the Catholic agitator:):) The term fulness of the Gospel is confusing to many.......it doesn't mean that the Book of Mormon contains all doctrine. As you know, we believe in revelation and have other volumes of scripture that also contain our doctrinal beliefs. This is from the introduction page in the Book of Mormon. "The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fulness of the everlasting gospel." As you can see, we believe that the fulness of the gospel is found in the Bible as well. So what is the Gospel? "Gospel means “good news”—the good news that Jesus Christ has made it possible for us to return to the presence of our Heavenly Father. Through his perfect, sinless life and his suffering in Gethsemane and on the cross, Jesus Christ atoned for the original transgression of Adam and Eve and made it possible for us to be redeemed from spiritual death, which is the consequence of sin. Also through his atonement, including his crucifixion and resurrection, he has saved us from the permanent effects of physical death."- Ensign Often times people confuse the term fulness of the gospel as meaning the whole body of truths as taught by the church. Truly, the fulness of the gospel is best defined by Christ himself: Behold I have given unto you my gospel, and this is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me. And my Father sent me that I might be lifted up upon the cross; and after that I had been lifted up upon the cross, that I might draw all men unto me, that as I have been lifted up by men even so should men be lifted up by the Father, to stand before me, to be judged of their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil— And for this cause have I been lifted up; therefore, according to the power of the Father I will draw all men unto me, that they may be judged according to their works. And it shall come to pass, that whoso repenteth and is baptized in my name shall be filled; and if he endureth to the end, behold, him will I hold guiltless before my Father at that day when I shall stand to judge the world. And he that endureth not unto the end, the same is he that is also hewn down and cast into the fire, from whence they can no more return, because of the justice of the Father. And this is the word which he hath given unto the children of men. And for this cause he fulfilleth the words which he hath given, and he lieth not, but fulfilleth all his words. And no unclean thing can enter into his kingdom; therefore nothing entereth into his rest save it be those who have washed their garments in my blood, because of their faith, and the repentance of all their sins, and their faithfulness unto the end.

Very interesting........how do they know the thief wasn't ready for Paradise? Just as Christ frankly forgave sins...could he not have meant literally that this man would be in Paradise? I tend to think so......

I don't think Mohammed was a Prophet of God....anymore than David Koresh or Jim Jones. By their fruits ye will know them. Sorry...just my opinion.

The spirits are classified according to the purity of their lives and their obedience to the will of the Lord while on earth. The righteous and the wicked are separated (see 1 Nephi 15:28–30), but the spirits may progress from one level to another as they learn gospel principles and live in accordance with them (see Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 762).

From Alma Ch. 40: 11 Now, concerning the state of the soul between death and the resurrection—Behold, it has been made known unto me by an angel, that the spirits of all men, as soon as they are departed from this mortal body, yea, the spirits of all men, whether they be good or evil, are taken home to that God who gave them life. 12 And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow. Sounds like they go to Paradise......:)

August....check out this site. Good stuff:cool: Book of Mormon Evidences - Are LDS Scriptures Supported by Science?

Not at all.......you will find that the most common answer from Latter Day Saints as to why the believe is the Holy Ghost. It is the way the Lord intended it.........check out my post a few posts back. Do I know where Bountiful was at? No. Do I know where Lehi and his family first landed at or where the Hill Cumorah is. No. Do I know where Noah's Ark is at. um..no. How about where the Garden of Eden was at.....again no. Holy Spirit.....that is the answer..... We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.) Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.

Your logic is deeply flawed........ how do you know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? Historical evidence suggests tha he lived......but how do you personally know he is the Son of God or that God exists at all...logic? Faith? I mean you haven't seen him....I am guessing here......Haas every historical location or event recored in the Bible been found and authenticated? I mean you have said that you don't beleive that Adam and Eve are real.....which tells me that you really have no understanding of salvation...no understanding of the importance of the creation, the fall and tha atonement and there relationship to one another. Consensus of experts??? Name them. Cite your evidences. Don't just bloviate. Doesn't historical evidence prove that the RCC church was deeply heretical and a tool of the state and if so cast doubt on the Catholic faith as a whole? I mean if this evidence exists, doesn't it cast serious doubt about the Catholic church and their claims? Do you apply this same test with regard to your belief in the RCC or just attempt to apply it to the LDS faith?

The Atonement occured in the Garden of Gethsemene..........Christ was crucified at Golgotha. The arrest of Jesus could have been accomplished without Judas's betrayal.

None taken......... You should read Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon.....you might find it interesting. It doesn't make sense to you and others mainly because you have never received a Spiritual witness of the truth. You speak of the Holy Spirit...but really you don't understand how the Holy Spirit works. The "feelings" are not like intuition...though sometimes it can be. It is not like getting a good vibe...though that may be as well. It is literally the presense of a member of the Godhead communing with your spirit. It is a tangible feeling....as tangible as someone touching you. It is so sacred and Holy and warm and comforting that it evokes tearful emotions. It is an experience that once felt....can never be denied or forgotten. Faithful Latterday Saints have the companionship of the Spirit and these "feelings".......this tangible, holy presense teaches our spirits sacred truths. Truths.....things of God....that can only be understood or made sense of by the power of the Holy Spirit. It is why people join the church.....even though they have been lifelong members of other faiths. I am formerly a Baptist. Faithful members of the Catholic church are the largest group of converts.......especially in South America. I will tell you....that I thought and felt that the Mormons were wacky and just plain wrong. I asked many of the same questions and others as you have and others have asked....and I didn't think it made sense and still did not believe. It was when I had this "feeling".......that everything changed. We are all children of God and all here on the same mission. He has provided away for our return.........

GO 'NOLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think Brother McConkie passed judgement on King David in the Premortal Messiah.....

You mean the "eating of the forbidden fruit story" or Adam and Eve in general?

When the gospel sun went down almost two millennia ago, when the priesthood was taken away and a dreary dusk descended in the congregations that once had known light, when light and truth no longer shone forth from heaven, and when those on earth no longer were taught and directed by apostles and prophets, then spiritual darkness reigned. Darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. (See Isa. 60:2.) The dark ages had their beginning, and the light of heaven no longer dwelt in the hearts of those who professed to worship Him whose we are. The vision of all became as the words of a book that is sealed. (See Isa. 29:11.) The prophets and seers were silenced; the holy scriptures were no longer made available to the masses of men; none could see the way to perfection; none knew the way back to the Eternal Presence. Earth’s pilgrims, walking in and by forbidden paths, were lost in the blackness of the night. True, the heaven still teemed with stars, an uncounted host of them, for there were many wise and good people who reflected forth to others such light and truth and goodness as they had. And month after month a new moon arose to reflect such of heaven’s truths as came by instinct and from reason. There was a St. Augustine, a Maimonides, a Joan of Arc, a Thomas More, a Michelangelo, a Galileo, a host of others—each for the month when their moon shone—who reflected such borrowed light as in their power lay. But the light of heaven no longer shed its rays on the strait and narrow path which leads to eternal life. And there were deep shadows in which the beasts of hell lurked. Lucifer did not sleep. At Nicaea and later by the pen of Athanasius he aided in the writing of creeds which debased the true gods of heaven and defined them as an incomprehensible spirit essence which fills the immensity of space. By the word of Constantine he placed the subjects of a pagan empire into what men have since called the universal church. With the sword of Cortez he placed a cross in the hands of pagan people and named them Christians. By the mouth of Tetzel he sold indulgences so that men’s sins could be forgiven for money, as they supposed. In Spain, in Mexico, and in Peru, he caused the evils of the Inquisition to flourish, and tens of thousands of earth’s inhabitants were slain to keep down heresy, as they chose to call it. The Huguenots and other dissenters from the established order were murdered by the scores of thousands. The dominant religion of the day was one of fear, ignorance, and superstition; it was a religion, imposed by the sword, which denied the agency of man. It was a long, dark night. There were jackals in the shadows, wolves in the forests, coyotes everywhere. Lions roared and the fangs of the serpent sank again and again into human flesh. The black plague swept Europe. Wars were everywhere. Morality and decency had few supporters. The terrors of the night were real and the night was long—long and dark and black. But finally the heralds of a distant dawn came forth. There was a Calvin, a Zwingli, a Luther, a Wesley; there were wise and good men—morning stars who shone more brightly than their fellows—who arose in every nation. There were men of insight and courage who were sickened by the sins and evils of the night. These great souls hacked and sawed at the chains with which the masses were bound. They sought to do good and to help their fellowmen—all according to the best light and knowledge they had. In Germany and France and England and Switzerland and elsewhere groups began to break away from the religion of centuries past. A few rays of light were parting the darkness of the eastern sky. Many who sought freedom to worship God according to the dictates of their conscience migrated to America. And in due course, by the power of the Father, a new nation was created, a nation “conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.” (Abraham Lincoln, Gettysburg Address.) The United States of America came into being. Beyond the mountains, now not many leagues away, a new day was gestating in the womb of nature. As the earth continued to turn slowly and steadily on its decreed course, as the dawn brightened and the morning light increased, as the Constitution of the United States guaranteed religious freedom, as men were tempered in their feelings and began to view each other with more equity and fairness, as the Bible was published and read by more people, as darkness fled and light increased, the time for the rising of the gospel sun was at hand. When the set time had fully come—when the day for the promised restoration of all things was at hand—the Lord in heaven, in his infinite wisdom, mercy, and goodness, sent from the courts of glory that eternal spirit whose foreordained mission it was to usher in the dispensation of the fulness of times. Joseph Smith began his mortal life. It was December 23, 1805. The sun was then just hidden by the mountain peaks. Then one glorious day in the spring of 1820—our tradition says that it was on April 6—the sun arose to view. The great God with the Lord Jesus at his right hand came down from heaven; stood personally in a grove of trees in western New York; called young Joseph by name; commanded him to join none of the churches of the day, for they were all wrong; told him that all their creeds were an abomination in the sight of heaven; and said that the professors of religion were all corrupt, that they drew near to the Lord with their lips, but their hearts were far from him, that they taught for commandments the doctrines of men, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof. (JS—H 1:19.) From that moment the stars no longer shone; the moon hid her face. Their reflected glimmerings were no longer needed to pierce the blackness of the night. The dispensation of the fulness of times was about to be given from God in heaven to man on earth. Almost immediately angels came from the Divine Presence to teach doctrine, to confer power and authority and priesthood, and to give again the keys of the kingdom, which are part of the holy apostleship, so that mortal men can bind on earth and have it sealed eternally in the heavens. Within a single decade the Book of Mormon came forth; the Church and kingdom of God on earth was reestablished; revelation and prophecy became the order of the day; and the gifts of the Spirit—all those ancient signs and wonders and miracles—were poured out upon the faithful. Once more there were visions and tongues and prophecies; the sick were healed, the lame walked, the blind saw, and the dead were raised. It was with the Latter-day Saints as it had been with the former-day saints. Line upon line the ancient truths were restored; one after another the ancient rites and ordinances were revealed anew. Soon the gospel, the fulness of the everlasting gospel—the very power of God which saves and exalts men—was shining forth in all its glory, beauty, and perfection. The gospel sun, which had its setting in the day when darkness covered the earth—that same gospel sun had its rising in the new day of restoration. And with the gospel dawn and the spread of truth over all the earth, the terrors of the night are vanishing away. Where there was fear and ignorance and superstition, now there is love and light and pure religion. Fear has become courage; ignorance is transformed into wisdom; superstition and tradition are replaced by the light and truth of heaven. Soon the wolves of wickedness will no longer howl and the jackals of sin no longer snivel and snipe at the ongoing kingdom, and the great millennial day will be upon us. -Elder Bruce R McConkie

The RCC taught and practiced much that was error........the Holy Spirit leads and guides and speaks to those who listen.

The RCC taught and practiced much that was error........the Holy Spirit leads and guide and speaks to those who listen.

My pleasure Ceeboo!! You know...we are all in the same boat together....we just need to all row at the same time.... This is one of my favorite LDS hymns.....very thought provoking...hope you enjoy!! 1. If you could hie to Kolob In the twinkling of an eye, And then continue onward With that same speed to fly, Do you think that you could ever, Through all eternity, Find out the generation Where Gods began to be? 2. Or see the grand beginning, Where space did not extend? Or view the last creation, Where Gods and matter end? Methinks the Spirit whispers, “No man has found ‘pure space,’ Nor seen the outside curtains, Where nothing has a place.” 3. The works of God continue, And worlds and lives abound; Improvement and progression Have one eternal round. There is no end to matter; There is no end to space; There is no end to spirit; There is no end to race. 4. There is no end to virtue; There is no end to might; There is no end to wisdom; There is no end to light. There is no end to union; There is no end to youth; There is no end to priesthood; There is no end to truth. 5. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love; There is no end to being; There is no death above. There is no end to glory; There is no end to love; There is no end to being; There is no death above.

Hello again Ceeboo.......what basis would I have for not agreeing with Prophets of God? I don't see where I disagree with their statements or others on this board. Very true....I have stated plainly......God the Father...Jesus Christ ......Holy Ghost....the Godhead....and they are one God....one in purpose. Maybe so........not much has been revealed on these issues. For my purposes....there is only one God....as I described him above. Did God have a Father? And his Father have a Father....makes sense to me. But for me and for you and the rest of humankind living on this fallen sphere......their is only one God. He is it .......the Almighty. I believe that I can have eternal increase if I receive exaltation. Does that mean I will create and populate worlds...I hope I get to find out. Maybe I'll just play a lot of golf:cool: God bless you too- Bytor

Well, my point is that the Protestant reformation occurred because the Catholic Church was viewed as being in error. The need for the Council is evidence of further errosion....which began to occur shortly after the death of the Apostles and was well into full swing by the time Constantine the great came to power. The Emperor made the so-called Christianity of the time the religion of his realm. Whatever vestiges of true Christianity that may have possibly survived were lost by the abuses that followed the elevation of the church organization to secular favor through the decree of Constantine. Constantine made himelf the head of the church.....Priesthood authority??? I think not. It wasn't just "some" people fell away...the church became a tool for the state. The church divided when the emperor made Byzantium his capital and renamed it Constantinople and the Bishop of that city claimed equality with the Roman pontiff. That's why the differences between the RCC and Greek Catholic churches. There are countless, historically verifable souces of early church corruption........definitely not the works of God, his authorized servants or the Church that he established. Indeed there was a falling away.....if the early church fell by way of corruption and was bereft of divine authority....as with Constantine setting himself up as the head of the church....the off-shoots....Protestants....who were protesting the coruption of the church.....are wrong as well and have no claim to authority either. There needed to be a restoration of things......and thanks be to the Almighty there has been.

We invite all men everywhere to read the Book of Mormon, to ponder in their hearts the message it contains, and then to ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if the book is true. Those who pursue this course and ask in faith will gain a testimony of its truth and divinity by the power of the Holy Ghost. (See Moroni 10: 3-5.) Those who gain this divine witness from the Holy Spirit will also come to know by the same power that Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world, that Joseph Smith is his revelator and prophet in these last days, and that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord’s kingdom once again established on the earth, preparatory to the second coming of the Messiah.-Book of Mormon Introduction

Who defined Christian beliefs? Was it Christ during his ministry or Constantine at Nicea? If there was not a falling away from the truth, from the original undertanding of the Gospel as taught by Christ and his Apostles, then why was there a need for the Council of Nicea? Confusion still prevails among Protestant Christendom today.....if not there would be only one Protestant denomination teaching exactly the same doctrines of salvation and believing in the same ordinances and claiming the same authority to practice and teach their beliefs. Much like the Roman Catholic Church or The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. If the Protestant Reformation was necessary, if the Catholic church did not have Apostolic succession as it claims, if it was bereft of divine authority and itself had fallen into apostacy or away from the teachings of Christ, or in the words of James Talmadge, "if the "mother church" be without a valid Priesthood, and devoid of spiritual power, how can her offspring derive from her the right to officiate in the things of God?", why then so many differing views among Protestants? And finally, maybe a better question about the Trinity and Godhead issue is,.........do we accept the Council of Nicea's view of the Trinity which is not supported biblically or do we declare what should be obvious in the reading of the scripture and confirmed by the Holy Spirit and witnessed by a 14 year old boy who by his humble prayer opened Heaven once again, that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two distinct and seperate personages of flesh and bone and that the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit and together they are one in purpose and not one in substance and form the Godhead. Truly, the things of God can only be understood by the power of the Holy Spirit....and coming to the knowledge that indeed there was a prophesied falling away and a restoration of all things in the last days in preparation for the return of the Savior can be revealed as sacred truth to the humble, contrite seeker by sincere prayer and confirmed by the source given to us to reveal truth and testify of Christ...the Holy Ghost.

Hello Ceeboo, No...there is only one God and he is the Father of us all. Are there gods in other realms beyond my understanding...perhaps. But my God is all that concerns me and my salvation...... the KFD and other teachings of Joseph Smith are great. But as pertaining to salvation and our mission here on earth ....it is really very simple. Faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion by one having authority, recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost again by those in authority, entering into the new and everlasting covenant and faithful adherence to the laws of the gospel are all that matters and all that is required to find out these great mysteries. From Doctrine and Covenants Section 20 verse 17 By these things we know that there is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things which are in them;