Fiannan

I don't live in Utah -- my roots are in the Pacific Northwest. Maybe that's why LDS people I know are more esoteric and willing to explore ideas that aren't exactly part of the prevailing paradigm of the USA.

You mean God isn't a combination of Saddam and a cranky old schoolteacher nun in a Parochial school armed with a ruler to hit us with for everything we do?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/afplifestylearabegypt You know, I tried to keep my daughters away from Barbie for the longest time but eventually the wife gave in. I am pleased that they still prefer dolls that resemble babies or the fully dressed Russian dolls I have bought for them. It might be interesting to add this doll to my daughter's collection.

I've heard that US soldiers and their families have REALLY had to control themselves over his antics as well as his site http://wwwgodhatesamerica.com

Where do you hang out???

I DO know a few LDS women who have expressed in my company that they wish their husbands could practice poygamy. One gal I think has a private agenda of her own, but the rest seem to think that it would be a good way to raise kids and ease the individual duties of each wife. Also, Serg, what is it with many LDS that if something goes wrong then it must be because God is displeased with them? I gained several pounds over the holidays -- God must have been ticked at me for something. I was sick the other day, must be the wicked way I am living. I consider myself pretty conservative and traditional LDS on most matters but I really, really hate it when people interpret any event they have control over, or no control over, that God is mad at them. Does God really look like Saddam?

How dare this guy? I mean, hey, wait a minute...I thought you were talking about Gene Simmons of KISS.

Oh please, Phelp's is crazy. Looking at his websites one wonders if he is actually an agent provateur (trying to make Christians look bad). The guy even has a site called http://www.godhatessweden.com . Other actions are too many to go into but he is not even representative of hard-core fundamentalist conservative Christians. It's a hate crime when someone makes a derrogatory comment to a gay rights organization -- like leaving a nasty message on their answering machine. You had better believe each of these mean pranks will be reported and recorded to prove oppression. Yet most people leading up defense of marriage efforts or ministers who are conservative who get calls from the other position's supporters will generally not report them as hate crimes even IF local authorities would deal with them. What many gay rights groups want is to build a concensus that they are persecuted so laws will be passed against any opposition -- like the ones in Sweden that the Swedish socialist government tried to use to jail a Pentecostal minister. This is not representative of Christianity in the least: http://www.godhatessweden.com/html/royalfamily.html Warning -- graphic hate displayed here. Do not open if easily offended.

Outshined, are you seriously questioning if people are subject to intimidation, threats and vandalization for their political stands? In fairness it happens on all issues and all sides. I knew a guy in college who was riding his moped back to the dorms after working out. He also had a Reagan sticker on his backpack. A couple of women driving a car yelled some nasty comments at him and then tried to run him off the road -- almost succeeding. The light turned red on them and that gave this guy time to take out a bar he used to attach to weights (the smaller bars one uses for developing your bicepts) rode up to their car and smashed their back window in. Yes, that was extreme, but they never reported him since, to do so, would have subjected them to vehicular endangerment, attempted murder, assult and battery, and a few other things. I have heard of many people who have put stickers on their cars supporting Bush, or urging votes on issues that were unfavorable to gay rights. I know these people and can think of no other reason people would spraypaint their cars, slash their tires or break their windows.

Oh come on. If I repeat my version enough it will have to be accepted. Besides, the version that she chased women around the barn yeard topless, in high heels and holding a whip has an appeal that will make it more interesting to modern readers. Did I also mention she had heavy goth makeup on and a leather mini skirt? Wonder what would happen if I set up a blog and featured this updated rumor?

In defense of Aristotle: http://www.bpnews.net/bpfeature.asp?ID=1597 That took about 1 minute to find. This stuff is quite common.

Snow, how would you rate Tom Clancy? After all, wasn't he merely an insurance salesman before he started writing books? His books have gained him a reputation for being an expert researcher on the topics he presents in a fictional manner.

Ever read the original Thanksgiving Day Proclaimatin issued by Washington? Look it up -- the original.

The right to privacy is a good start -- it is not in the Constitution and was first introduced to repeal state laws against birth control in the 60s, then used to legalize abortion, then used to repeal all state laws against same-sex sodomy.

First you start with a thread about Russia and polygamy, then someone starts a cat fight over an alleged cat fight, then ya try to spice it up with some S & M thrown in to make the cat fight interesting, and then people can't let go of the cat fight thing. Question, after the alleged incident did Emma and the other gal kiss and make out, I mean up? Sorry, again I could not resist.

I'd rather make it into a movie.

In the USA? Is that where Elton got "married"? No he did not. All same sex marriage proposals have been rejected by voters. Maybe England has slid, but it was not a church wedding.

Did you guys ever see the Life of Brian? Your discussion reminds me of the debate scenes with the Jewish Liberation Front. Pointless. I couldn't care less if Emma Smith ripped her blouse off, put on spiked heels, grabed a whip and chased all Joseph Smith's wives around the farm house.

What nations? Dying nations such as Holland or Sweden? The Russian Orthodox Church recently broke all relations with the Swedish Lutheran Church over allowing same sex marriage. All 12 Lutherans left in Sweden were probably quite offended with Russia. I'm sure most Immams in Sweden would agree with what Russia did.

Read this on a bumpersticker- Sorry, just had to throw this in.

Wow, thanks sgallen -- you haven't been that positive since I suggested you might look into helping out women with, well, you know.

I guess it all depends on how you define "oppressed". I tend to reserve words like oppressed for people who have very little freedom, so I would agree that they are not oppressed. But what CAN be said is that people have prejudices against them, which apparantly makes them feel bad, especially when those people are their own parents, or their church. Some are told they will burn in a very real Hell. Some are told they will simply be unable to spend eternity with their families. At the very least, they are told they cannot have a legal marriage in most states. Taking that into consideration, I don't see why their income is relevant to their sense of happiness. Look at Pat Robertson. He is a millionaire and he thinks he is oppressed...what with the liberals trying to cancel Christmas, end school prayer, etc. Poor guy. Its really all about personal feelings, not money. Since you are so concerned about these people "sinning" (according to your church), I will give you some free advice: Don't become a homosexual. I do agree with you that they have all the freedoms that all US citizens have. Therefore they are not oppressed. There are not treated as second class citizens, their per capita income demonstrates that by and large they are not being economically challenged, and they can live where they want. I do not agree that they are subject to unfair practices as they cannot marry -- or maybe in some states cannot adopt. In many states two 1st. cousins who might love each other very much are not allowed to marry -- although they can get married in a state that allows it and then merely move back. Two siblings have no right to marry each other -- are they oppressed? Under these laws Abraham and Sarah would have been barred from marriage (although half-siblings can marry in some European nations from what I understand). Adoption? Nothing is preventing a lesbian couple from going to a sperm bank -- hey more power to them if that's what they desire. Two men? Sorry, no womb -- but they could hire a surrogate. Then you could say that polygamists in this country live in a state of fear that the government could go after them. Maybe that makes them feel bad. People in fundamentalist churches tell Mormons they are going to burn forever -- so what, I am not asking for any special hate crimes laws to punish them with. And speaking of hate crimes laws why should a person who assults a person get more punishment if he makes reference to the victim's race or sexual preferences?

There were those that were loyal to King George and Britain and felt the same way in the 1780s. They moved to Canada. Canada is underpopulated and I am sure it is not difficult to get a residency permit. Brutal and violent? Ever seen a British soccer match -- I mean the fans that is? The USA is not perfect, but we were originally colonized by people seeking non-conformity, innovation and freedom. Along with those traits may come more lawlessness.

Let's see. Been to a few places, which would be good for vacations... China is great. Great food, cheap prices, and everywhere you look looks like something from a travel documentary. Disadvantages? Ever see a pic of a Chinese bathroom? It's no wonder their country has great female gymnasts. Russia is awesome! Sometimes a hassel to get visas, etc. unless you have connections or go through a tourist agency. Lots of history, nice people, and Moscow is sort of like 1920s Chicago. Cheap prices but bland food. Venezuela is fun if you take a wildlife tour inland. Caracas is not a great place to be in -- sort of like east LA, just more violent. Turkey is interesting, I think it is still safe -- most Muslims there are not crazy. The Baltic nations (Sweden, Finland, Latvia and Estonia) are fascinating and most people know English better than the typical public school student of the USA. Nice people overall (Swedes are like The Borg but nice overall). Spain? It was okay, I should have visited in the summer. Heard that if you wear a top on the beach you are overdressed. Holland? Really interesting. Kind of has that San Francisco charm with the Oregon state plant -- you know, the one with five leaves? Glacier Park in Canada is one of my favorites -- the Great Lake region is also nice.

which was a response to my statement: Shanstress70, my label of DINKs as being virtual homosexuals is in the social and biological sense, not one of sexual orientation (which is more a psychological term). If someone chooses not to have children and just live for the present how is that all that different from what we generally see as the gay male lifestyle? No reason to get specific in terms of sexual organs -- you still wind up with no children, and still have a lifestyle that any two men or women could have. Now in fairness to lesbians, many are now turning to sperm banks to have children and in a Biblical sense I would assume that they are living the commandment given in Genesis to multiply and replenish the earth better than a couple that is heterosexual and chooses not to have kids. Sgallen, strange you should bring up religion as you claim not to have one -- as an atheist then why are you sitting in front of a computer and not out living what little time you have on the planet? I would encourage you to examine Romans 1 carefully, but alas, the Bible was written by psychotic would-be prophets and Jesus was just a man suffering from narcissistic personality disorder and delusions of grandure, isn't that right?