LegendadryPerc

I think that a lot of what people do that I and probably many on here, find offensive, has a lot to do with culture. Modern prophets have told us that some aspects of cultures are wrong, and need to be let go. I like to give people the benifit of the doubt, and have found that this is also the most effective way to get the response I want. If a teenager has only known a world where it is appropriate to speak a certain way, or dress a certain way, then someone attacking them is only going to encourage them to put up their defenses and see that person as some "hypocritical, self-righteous, busy-body", despite the fact that they are infringing on that persons desires to not have to be exposed to something they find disturbing. When it comes to swearing, very offensive clothing, smoking, etc., I have never had someone not at least try to honor my request to not do it around me. The scariest, foulest mouthed, offenders, will genuinely try to accomodate my requests if I'm careful to phrase it as "I" have a problem with it, not "you" are bad to be like that! They are human after all, and many are genuinely good people who put me to shame as far as unconditional love for all mankind.

Finnian, are your morals based soley on the bible, or do they include all LDS doctrine? What do you think of "universal morals"? Morals that are not based on a specific or any religion for that matter, but are believed by some (many?) to be felt or known to all humans. For instance, canibalism, even if you are raised in a canibalistic culture, is believed by some to be so "anti-universal morals" or naturally repulsive to humans, that people would shy away from it. Eating monkey fringes on this, though it is appropriate in some cultures, though this doesn't mean that even those raised in such, do not feal something is intrinsically wrong with it.

I'm new here, and maybe it is something this board is OK with. I'm not sure anybody has really crossed the line, and maybe I should read the guidelines better, but is there respect of religion here? I know there are (or seems to be) many people here whose beliefs are similar to the main LDS church, but who aren't members of it, or don't quite believe it all, etc. Given that most people on here understand the basic doctrine of the main LDS church, I can understand how explaining ones beliefs can be easier by just saying what about the main LDS church one doesn't believe. My concern is if this ever crosses the line, and becomes people saying what other people truly believe is "wrong". I love hearing testimonies of what people know is true, but find it offensive, whether I personally have a belief or not, when people tell others that their beliefs or part thereof, are wrong. For example (hope this is OK) someone on here said they believe we should rest on Saturday. I love hearing other's beliefs and ideas like this. However, if this person would have said, it is wrong to rest on Sunday, or worse, you guys are wrong to rest on Sunday, it would have felt worse than a pesonal attack, it would have been an attack on people's beliefs. This is not just about the mormon church's beliefs. But thought I would bring the subject up as such, as this is a "mormonish" board. But other's beliefs can be ridiculed as well. I apologize if this is part of the purpose of the board, to investigate how beliefs can be wrong. I love a good "discussion" about doctrine and how individuals define it, but I truly find it important how points are phrased. However, blantant attacks on beliefs are very offensive to me. If I want to know "why" a belief or "the church" or Any church is wrong - I am sure I can look up many anti-LDS or anti-(add belief here) websites. Just like if I want to see pornography, I can look that up. I don't need to accidentally come across it on a religious board. Like I said, I am new here, and am not sure this line has even been crossed. I guess I'm just curious before I end up reading something offensive, what the purpose of this board is. Thanks.

It has already been pointed out in various wonderfull ways how important it is to understand what your wife really does! So I won't adress that more - though it needed to be adressed. What I have found is that doing stuff with your family won't help unless you WANT to do it. If you are wishing you were having "me" time the whole time, or doing it grudgingly or out of obligation, it's not going to help anything. It's better that you just go have "me" time. Don't do what your wife says out of guilt or any other feeling of having to, do it out of love, or don't do it. You may even have to say no more often for a while, so you can figure out what YOU want to do. When I stopped nagging my H to spend time with the family, it took several months, maybe even a year, but then, he started spending more time with the family than he had even with my nagging. But this new time was because HE wanted to. Sometimes when we are coerced into doing something, we do the minimal, whereas if we really were left to follow our desires, and didn't feal obligated, we would actually do more - and actually mean it!

We only "get out" on a date about once a year (and half the time that "date" is to the maternity ward... ) What we like to do, though, is simple things, like sit on the front porch and look at the stars after all the kids are asleep, fix the kids bikes, sneek up in the middle of the night, like 3am, and play a good board game or just talk, go on a walk around our house, cook something, even fix something like the leaky faucet - it doesn't really matter so much what you do, but that you do it together. I love spending time with my husband! We also love taking our kids on dates. It's kind of become a tradition. Our second aniversary we were contemplating what to do with our kid, when someone suggested we take him with us. It was wonderfull, and much more fun and better than it would have been with just us two. So we have taken our kids with us to celebrate aniversaries etc. ever since. We plan on doing the Disney thing for our 10th! It wil be so much fun - we didn't do anything expensive like that for our honeymoon - but it will be so much more fun with our kids. But then our love for our kids holds us together. There's nothing we enjoy more than discussing how wonderfull they are, and on those rare ocasions when we go and do something without them, we end up talking about how much we miss them.

Make sure your husband knows that your relationship with him is more important than your relationship with your mother. Honoring your mother, and asking her advise is fine, but make sure you are making the final disicions with your husband. Especially if you and your mother are going to church, and he is not, it can be tempting to pair off with her and discuss things he won't discuss, and a wonderfull close relationship with her is desireable, but she is not who you are making a family with. She is not your husband.

From your post, you obviously don't have the same cultural prejudices against welfare as I have had. Thus I don't really know how to explain to you what I meant - why try to explain the need to overcome a prejudice, to someone who doesn't even have or seem to understand that prejudice? To attempt to clarify, I was philosophizing about my attitude towards the existance of welfare, not justifying "needing" it. "Need" is a very ambiguous comparitive term - also often based on culture...

but wasn't it the "culture and belief system" that was claimed to be the "abuse" they had to save all the children from? Yes, there was public outcry, but that didn't take hours, that took months! I heard more than one person comment (not necisarily on here) that some beliefs are so bad, they shouldn't be protected, and that what CPS did was OK - reminds me of CPS constantly saying that they didn't follow all the laws, but this was such a special case, that they couldn't, so it was OK. I can only hope that it was a misunderstanding and misinformation that made it take so long for an appeals court to say a belief in and of itself could not be classified as "abuse" by our laws. With all the rumors about force and abuse even to babies, Warren Jeffs conviction, etc., maybe people really thought that CPS had taken the kids away because of evidence pointing to those things - not evidence pointing to a belief. If it isn't still about a belief, and they aren't considered one household anymore, why are all the families still being investigated - legally forced to subject themselves to CPS involvement - what other "abuse" do they even have the slightest evidence that it might be going on?

Sometimes one must choose between being "responsible" and doing what they know is right in their hearts.

Hemidakota, did he say that talking as a mouthpiece for the Lord, or on his own? (from the pulpit in conference, etc?)

I know this sounds very "white - middle class) - I know I have been culturally ingrained with a "white - middle class" attitude - but hopefully my upbringing will be looked upon with as much mercy as I think we all deserve... Anyway, we live on the "wrong side of the tracks" and I have learned so much because of this situation. I assume that just where we live, makes us the target of "investigations" as somebody (like a policeman or CPS) shows up about once a year. Freaked me out at first, as I thought they only showed up on "questionable" people's doorsteps. Never thought it would happen to me. But we've gotten used to it. What does scare me, is that I say one sentence - one sentence out of my mouth, and they visibly relax, and often opologize for taking up my time. Why? because I speek "correct" english (probably a good thing they can't see my spelling, lol). I don't use "explicatives" and am polite, etc. Basically, with even just one sentence, they can tell, despite our financial cirucumatances and where we live, that we are "white - middle class" or rather - educated. I don't know which turns my stomach more, or its probably the combination of both. The horror that I really don't have any rights because of where we live, etc., or the horror that those who aren't from my culture, have no rights. If we accidentally overdraw our bank account, and write a bad check, we might get fined by the bank or the store, we might get a bad credit rating, but that's about it. If the guy down the street does, he's on probation for 6 months or policemen invading his life, because he committed "fraud". I used to think "they" must have done something else, or we weren't getting the whole story. But after living here, I think it has to do a whole lot more with not knowing how to relate to those who run the courts and make the laws. If you don't know the laws, nobody tells you. They walk all over you. I will see policemen verbally abuse somebody for doing something that I am getting away with (like homeschooling vs. truancy), and then turn around and talk to me like I'm a real person, expecting me to talk to them like they are a real person, like we are somehow different than the person they are unknowingly being prejudiced against. I honestly don't think they do it on purpose - they really think how you talk, dress, body language, where you live, matter. I know this is only one small location, and "perhaps" the only place these kind of injustices occur - but I do not doubt that your observation here about race, education, and economics, are true.

I like the word instictual parent. There are so many different things that work for different people, that all have the same "feel" to them. I think following the baby's cues is more important than if you use a sling, co-sleep, etc. For example, we got these baby toys from relatives when we had our first. I was convinced they were useless, as our first two simply wanted to be held. Our third, however, liked to be layed down and actually loved these baby toys. Blew us away. We didn't think they were any good, and here was our kid convinced they were the best. Or our baby who would cry for 2 hours straight every night, then finally dh convinced me to leave her alone in a dark room, and she cried for about 10 min., and then was asleep. This may technically be "crying it out", but in reality, holding her and trying to help her, was keeping her awake, and 10 min. was so much kinder to her than 2 hours. I'm glad you started this thread, though. I've been given the axe murderer lecture and everything. We also tend to unschool and don't have chores etc. This last year has been amazing, in that all the doubts and pressures of others have given away as I see my older kids help out through a desire to serve, the joy of doing the right thing, and a true understanding of what and why things need to be done. Hang in there, it can be really hard to follow our hearts, when even well meaning members corner us and tell us how wrong we are. I guess my parenting could easily be described in that my kids have a really hard time being left with another adult, yet at the same time, if everybody over 8 years were to suddenly dissappear, I wouldn't worry about my kids surviving. Glad you made this post!

I am one of those parents who can't leave a toddler with somebody else for hours without at least checking on them. I am also very aware how peeking in the door can disturb more than just my kid. I made the comment that they should have one way windows on the nursery doors, and lo and behold, the very next sunday they did! I have had several kids in nursery since then, with different nursery with different philosophies (like how long a kid can cry before parents are notified:eek:) and it has worked so well for me and many many other parents to be able to check on their kid without disturbing the class! oh, and sometimes I think we forget the goal of nursery and primary. It is not to get the kids to be ok away from parents, or to get the kids to sit still with their arms folded for a certain amount of time, it is to teach them about our saviour. Sadly is this not only sometimes overshadowed by the logistics of it all, but the logistics are so culturally not spiritually, based. I would much rather a kid not follow the cultural norm, and feal the spirit and love going to church, than to enforce the cultural norm, and have the kid go to church only grudgingly, or hate going to church. Sometimes I think we forget our goals. (I am not saying anyone on here does, just my biggest issue with primary)

lol, I haven't adressed the real topic of this thread yet! Yes, as I understand, the worst of it is over! If CPS comes up with some way to keep the kids, it will not be by calling their belief system abuse. That was the worst of the many disputed crimes committed here. (at least that is how I understand the ruling - bookmeister?)

I believe the churches stance on the current situation has been nothing more than miraculous. The church has a strong stance of not taking sides politically, but only teaching priciples. As much as almost all involved on either side were visiously drug through the mud, and much unhappiness has existed because of hatred and lack of forgiveness, it is a miracle the church has been able to stay out of it as much as they have, and not only remain neutral, but the media has not even been able to profit from trying to say otherwise. Considering it all, it is a miracle.

I think it isn't so much what happens to you, as much as how much that differs from what you're used to. This is another point that hits home with these kids. If they were as isolated as they say they were, if they were homeschooled with stay at home moms, (I realize they had a communal school, so maybe this part isn't so bad), then the shock of being away from mom for the first time would be tremendous. Whereas your average, been being babysat by "stangers" since they were 3 months old, kid, that is shipped off to public school every day, would probably adjust much better, or at least not be quite as completely hysterical at the whole idea. Perception of the world is based on past experiences, there is little else individuals have to base it on. It is hard to imagine the forced seperation of ones family for 2 years, to not have an effect on a person for the rest of their life. Also, one may not feel they are traumatized by something, untill they find themselves in a particular situation that makes the past relevent. Perhaps you have not experienced, or come to a point in your adult life where it is extremely relevent, forced seperation from your family.

I somehow must have skimmed over this part, and missed it when I read your post. When the lord inspires someone, and commands them to do something, it is difficult enough to do it in and of itself, it is hard enough to endure the ridicule and judgement of those who are ignorant of or oppose truth, let alone to have to deal with the judgement of those who claim to worship the same God.

Honestly this is my pet peeve, us falible humans judging others on whether they "should" do it on their own, etc. I know the church emphasises self reliance, but there is a difference between encouraging self reliance, and lack of compassion. In reality, this is not about that sister at all. It is about you. I say you, because you are the only one who you can control how this effects you. The Lord could make her well, he could take away all her trials, he could suddenly give her all the help she needs or seems to need. He could tell you that she has all the help she could possibly need, but he hasn't. He perfectly ochestrates our lives to our best benifit. She is in your ward, or you are in hers, for a reason. You are uncomfortable with the situation for a reason. You are given the opportunity to help for a reason. One time we had very little food, I was preg. with my 3rd, dh was in grad school, student loans had been held up for some reason - anyway, it was very hard for me to accept the fact that we needed help, but we went to the bishops storehouse anyway. This kind old man looked at me, and said, "Thankyou for blessing us with an opportunity to serve." I had been at the bottom of my self esteem, having to face my pride, and here was someone telling me I was a blessing. Years later, we were barely making it. We live in a small town that gets very cold in the winter, so we hardly ever see a bum. But as I was leaving the grocery store, after making hard decisions on what we needed most, I saw a bum. I took all the change we had, (which was a lot for us - not much for most, lol) and gave it to him. Over and over again he said, "God bless you." Thinking of all of our very real needs at the time, I was thankful for the blessing. Then it dawned on me. The Lord had already blessed me! With so many young kids that it was a miracle every day I made it, I had no time to volunteer to help others. With so little money, that it was a miracle that we made it, I had no money to help others with. I long so much to be able to feel usefull and help others, for the thrill of making one smile. The Lord had already given me the blessing this man evoked from heaven. He was the blessing. The opportunity I had to give him all that we had. That was the blessing itself. So, the Lord will not let something that isn't for the good of all, happen. His definition of good is eternal, not mortal, though. The Lord has blessed you with this opportunity. Will you take it?

Wow, I don't know if there is a standard proceedure or not. I would also feel more comfortable if I were in your shoes, if there was a standard proceedure... Not knowing of one, or simply going by my gut, I think it would be akward and a lot of unspoken issues would remain unadressed, if you didn't talk to them. I think it is right and very respectful of you to wait for the boy to get home and tell his parents himself. But it is not just their business anymore. It directly involves you. Talk to them. I would be carefull to simply get it all out in the open, adress it, etc., not acuse or make demands on them on how they should change, etc. Just a freindly, welcome to my life because you are now involved in it, approach. Good luck. Hopefully somebody who knows more can help you out.

Sorry, I'm not so good at reading between the lines sometimes... So is the death penalty only spiritually benificial for those who have sinned and seek it - or is it spiritually benificial for those who make the laws?

I wonder if "trying to get your child to eat" is a cultural trend, or if there is an underlying cause. Do people realy believe their kids need to be "gotten" to eat? Or is there something in our current society that makes our kids have a problem with this, a real problem, that parents notice, and thus try to fix by "getting" them to eat? I know if my kids eat candy, they will often go for a whole day without eating, before they will accept a food that isn't candy. Do you think this is it? Is it hereditary (my family is made up of very picky eaters, but the foods they each will eat, they eat way more than most kids seem to)? Is it snacks (especially "nutritious" snacks like those granola bars that are about the same thing as a rice crispy treat)? Or do you think it is just a cultural fear that our kids are going to starve to death if we don't push food on them? Or maybe not eat the "right" things? Do you think there is a link between a possible underlying factor that causes kids not to eat, and an underlying factor to how many obese kids there are? (not saying there is necisarily anything wrong with a kid being obese - or necisarily anything not wrong with it ) Just wondering how we as a society got to the point where we actually needed this advice. (though I think this advice is still a little on the "pushy" side - like not taking "no" for an answer, but introducing a said food over and over again - how about maybe trying a different food. Did you know watermellon has many of the same vit.s that make brocolli and other dark green veg. good for you?)

When dealing with personal revelation from the Lord, I think it's important to not make absolutes. There is no such thing as "never" or "can't" if the Lord commands it. I also find it odd that culture dictates what is "living off the state" and what one rightfully should recieve from it. Like public schools. Nobody ever mentions how irresponsible it would be to have several children if they all go to public school, (which incidentally, here, costs much more per kid than food stamps do). Or if you live in a country where medical care is paid for for everybody, it is your right, no matter how rich or poor you are, but if you don't, but laws that were voted on say that you can have help paying your medical bills because of your specific circumstances, why is that "taking advantage of the govt."? Everything belongs to God, and if He commands you through personal revelation to do something, then He will provide a way. I know I am not the one to say whether this should be through legal help from the govt. or not. It is all culture - and something I personally have had to deal with having that same cultural concept that it was evil, gently and lovingly reformed, to facilitate spiritual growth.

I find the news an extremely unrealiable source. This guy who claims he is an ex-flds member may be a complete hoax, but is about as realiable as the news. As Bookmeister said, what the media says or doesn't say doesn't have any affect on the court. I agree with him that at least it shouldn't (and hopefully doesn't) - so we are back down to the courts testifying that it was the beliefs (not just actions) that were abusive. A ruling that personally attacks me - for I too have unpopular beliefs.

So, you are saying that the death penalty doesn't necisarily help the person put to death, (unless that person submits to it willingly), but that it helps those who are answerable to God for the judgement they give on the case. Basically, you are saying, that the death penalty is for OUR (as we make the laws) redemption, as it shows whether we condone murder or not. (am I understanding that right?)

Thanks so much for posting that about the lost boys.