Vort

So as long as the people being photographed or filmed were engaging in sex for their own or each other's pleasure rather than for exhibitionist purposes or money, you're okay with it? No disgust in that case?

What can I say? You have me pegged.

I think that maybe I did not explain what it is I'm looking for. Several people seem to want to agree that pornography is "disgusting", but then go on to talk about how we should not judge other people's standards or whatever. That's all fine, and maybe they're even right, but it is not at all relevant to what I'm asking. I want to know, specifically: What is disgusting about pornography, however you choose to define it?What is disgusting about immodesty, whatever you believe that involves?Let me give a few examples so you can see what I mean: Pictures of animals, not sexually suggestive: I feel no sexual attraction to animals. I do not find pictures of animals disgusting per se. This is true even if said pictures show the genitalia of said animals. Pictures of animals, meant to be sexually suggestive: If I can tell a picture of an animal is designed to be suggestive, I am repulsed by the thought of sexual congress with the animal and disgusted with whatever person would think such a repulsive thing enticing. Pictures of nude babies or children, not suggestive: I feel no sexual attraction to babies or children of either sex. I do not find pictures of children disgusting, even if the children are nude (though in today's society, I might be concerned that such pictures might legally constitute child pornography or exploitation). Pictures of nude babies or children, suggestive: As a father and, frankly, as a human being, I am outraged at the thought of sexual exploitation of children, and my disgust arises at the thought of children (or their images) being used to sate the carnal lusts of those who, for some perverse reason, do find sexual stimulation in children and their images. (I do not recall ever having seen such pictures, thankfully, but given the great amount of press kiddie porn has received, I have no doubt they exist.) Pictures of nude adult men, non-suggestive: I am not sexually attracted to men. I do not find such pictures offensive or disgusting, even if the men are naked. Pictures of nude adult men, suggestive: I admit that I do find such pictures disgusting, though I am not completely sure why. I suspect it is because the thought of engaging in sex with men is unpleasant to me, so seeing men in pornographic pictures is like seeing a plate full of steaming dog excrement, complete with knife, fork, and napkin. The reasons I list below about suggestive pictures of naked women may also apply to some extent. Pictures of nude adult women, non-suggestive: I do not find such pictures disgusting. If said women are much younger or older than me, I feel little particular sexual attraction. If said women are around my age or younger, say within about 15 or so years of my age, I may feel such attraction, which would in turn cause me to feel disgust at myself. So I avoid such pictures. Pictures of nude adult women, suggestive: Because I am naturally heterosexual, I do not find the pictures per se disgusting. However, I do find the trafficking of sexuality (which I believe to be a sacred and Godly thing) to be a profanity of the darkest hue, and so I find the idea of pornography (or other sexual sin, like prostitution or even blatant immodesty) to be a cheapening and violation of something that should be kept sacred, portraying a desire for fornication. This disgusts me. I am equally or even more sickened at the idea that such images might damage or destroy marriages, which are supposed to be eternal, and separate people from the God who would save them. Thus, even though the images themselves might not disgust me, the implications of those images do so.It is my supposition that many people, especially women, are disgusted by pornography because they find the pictures themselves disgusting, and not merely the implications or effects of those pictures. I suspect that others don't really find pornography disgusting, but say they do because that's what everyone else says. This is why I'm asking for people to describe why they find pornography and immodesty "disgusting" rather than what they think constitutes pornography or immodesty.

No, I am not asking what you think qualifies as immodest or pornographic. I am asking why you find such things to be disgusting. What is there about immodesty or pornography, however you choose to define them, that disgusts you? So, then: If my wife and I make a video of ourselves engaged in sex, but we don't degrade or do violence to each other in our sex acts, and we don't charge anyone for the DVD so as to profit from the venture, then it's not pornography. Correct?If the above is your definition of pornography, then it's evident to me why you might find it disgusting, but I'm a bit surprised that your definition of pornography is so narrow. Why do you find this disgusting? Glad I could be of service.(Btw, Linkin Park put out two great albums, and Figure.09 is an absolutely amazing song.) Yes, I do indeed see that. But my purpose was never to ask people what they thought qualified as disgusting. Rather, what I have been trying to ask you is why you are disgusted by these things.

JAG, your analysis is chilling, but I fear it is often spot-on.

Then I fear that further conversation on this particular point is fruitless. We are at an impasse, because we have completely different interpretations of reality.In Vort's universe, a man making a judgment that a woman is dressed immodestly (even if that means she has a hole in the knee of her burqa) is utterly different from a man saying that a woman deserved to be attacked and raped because of the sexual arousal a man felt in looking at her. I do not know how to respond to someone who believes those situations are, in effect, identical. I am not aware of anyone on this or any related thread who has suggested any such thing.

Why? What creates the disgust in your mind when you encounter pornography? What is there about it that disgusts you?

Why? What is disgusting about it? That is the question. So as long as we confine our videos to such non-perverted activities as penis-in-vagina sex between married people, and as long as no one involved is trying to make any money from the venture, then such videos are not pornography and are perfectly okay. Is this correct? Again, the question is: Why is that disgusting?

Let me see if I understand you correctly, LDSJewess: Man sees woman in very revealing clothing with plunging neckline t-shirt cutoff, exposed bottoms of breasts and midriff, and tight minishorts with "camel toe". Man, physically aroused, says, "That woman is dressed immodestly." Man sees woman lying in alley with above-mentioned clothes ripped off, battered and raped. Man says, "That woman deserved to be raped because she aroused her attacker."It is your assertion that A and B above are identical. Correct?

Two possibilities: He actually shares your views. This is possible; men are not identical. But it would certainly make him part of a minority.He tells you he shares your veiws because he knows what your reaction would be if he were to say otherwise. As a husband, I cannot fault a man for this... I suppose that's possible, but it seems rather unlikely. I led a pretty sheltered life until my teenage years, but from my childhood I thought of things this way. Most men I've had discussions with about this seem to agree with me. So, as a man, I'll accept my own point of view in this matter in preference to yours. Yes, breasts have always been a big deal (no pun intended) (well, okay, maybe a little) in American society during my lifetime. But I never had a great fascination with breasts while growing up, so that aspect didn't really influence me too much. So this observation rather contradicts your assertion.

Seriously? If you have to ask, I guess I can't explain it to you. Most men of my acquaintance understand this intuitively. I guess I have problems then, mate. As do most men.Do you suppose women would wear such skimpy swimwear if men didn't find it pruriently attractive? If so, why didn't they wear it a hundred (or even fifty) years ago? Your qualifier is noted.

I am both, so I'll answer both sets. According the D&C 20, an elder is to baptize and confirm people members of the Church and give the gift of the Holy Ghost, administer the sacrament, officiate in the ordination of other Priesthood bearers, teach, expound, exhort, and watch over the Church, exercise the laying on of hands (in other times, as in giving blessings), and take the lead of meetings. This latter duty was later explicitly given to high priests, so elders take the lead of meetings only when no high priest is present. Having the authority means you have been ordained to the Priesthood and are authorized to exercise power therein at appropriate times. Priesthood keys (of leadership) constitute the right and power to authorize Priesthood activity in God's kingdom, such as authorizing an ordinance. Read the scriptures. Pray always. Attend your meetings faithfully. Try to live according to the standards you have been taught. If you are married, kiss your wife many times per day. As a husband and father (and son, and grandson, and brother), I have had numerous opportunities to exercise Priesthood power in my family. Ordaining my sons has been a notable event. I expect that simply working to serve as a good husband and father has been the most important Priesthood exercise. Every good thing I have in my life is directly related to my membership in the Church. Holding the Priesthood has allowed me to make covenants with God that I otherwise would not have made, which covenants have blessed my life even more. Marriage and fatherhood in the way I enjoy those things would not have been possible without my holding the Priesthood. Not sure what this is asking. If you mean the process, those are set out in various publications. I often consecrate oil alone, though I prefer to do it with someone else. Ordinances such as blessings, confirmations, and ordinations are done by placing your hands on the head of the recipient, stating his name, the authority by which you act, the name under which you act, and the action you are performing, together with any other words of blessing you are inspired to give, and ending with "Amen". Same as preparing for the Priesthood: Read your scriptures daily (an hour per day would be a nice number). Pray always. Attend your meetings faithfully. Seek to do your duties and keep all the commandments. Humility and obedience to legitimate authorityLack of a rebellious spiritKnowledge of scripture and doctrineUnderstanding of prayer and how to exercise its powerWillingness to work very hard, all day longAbility to really listen to someone else and understand what they're trying to say I was introduced to immersion in the gospel at an adult level as a missionary. It was there that I made the choice between being a lukewarm Mormon and striving to be a true Latter-day Saint, and that choice (and my imperfect, sometimes comical attempts to stay faithful to it) has dictated the course of my life. Plus I learned to speak Italian and developed a deep interest in linguistics.

I think you mean "pantsless male servers".

Spoken like someone who is not male.I have always had a fascination with the human body. At ten, I could tell you more about human anatomy and physiology than most adults. At 16, and to my frustration, I knew far more about biology (human and otherwise) than my high school biology teacher. I fully intended to be a physician until about a year before graduation, when I figured out that I was a terrible student and that being "smart" wouldn't get me through medical school. My fascination with biology and human anatomy and physiology was sincere. Yet from my young childhood, well before age eight, I have understood the prurient interest that draws men into pornography. I was fortunate to escape the ravages that pornography inflicts on those drawn into its clutches, but I don't believe any boy in our society escapes completely unscathed. If you think the sight of a woman's crotch (even if covered by a piece of fabric) doesn't rivet a man's attention and awaken his desires, you do not know anything about men. I am amazed at women who, on the one hand, talk about the harmlessness of "artistic nudity", the wonders of the human form, and the silliness of those uptight Puritans that freak out over a little skin, but then on the other hand condemn without mercy those men who are addicted to the "high" of seeing naked women.

Many times in many threads, most recently here, forum members have maintained that immodesty and pornography are "disgusting". Just curious: What do you find disgusting about immodest dress or pornography? As it happens, I completely agree with the sentiment, but I'd like to read the views of others as to why such things disgust them before sharing my own ideas.

Strange, then, that I've seen at least half a dozen zombie threads closed in just the past week or so. Am I to understand that all of them were somehow objectionable? Or is it more like the default action to zombie threads is to close them down for some reason? Look, I gave you the CDC link. If you haven't taken advantage by now, then it's your own fault when we^B^Bthe zombies eat your brains.

For a long time, I used this as my avatar: Unfortunately, people really didn't respond very well to it. Rameumptom in particular didn't like it, and people in general were just, well, sort of hostile. Not everyone, but many. I decided I needed to upgrade my image, so I Googled "doe-eyed beauty" or something of the sort and found my current avatar. Amazingly, people responded to me much better from then on. No kidding. My avatar represents my own spiritual quest and naivete. It's not misleading. If people think I'm a beautiful nubile young woman instead of a fat middle-aged man, hey, that's not my problem. So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that those of us who do not actively feel God's love for us are failing to feel that love because of our own wickedness.I grant that you may be right, but I also admit I'm not going to worry too much about it.

Hey, ram, come on over here. I have something I want to talk to you about. Pick your brain, so to speak. No, really, it was just a figure of speech. You can trust me. CDC Tells Us How To Prepare For The Coming Zombie Apocalypse (My avatar is actually saying "braaaaainsssss!")

Why the rush by mods to close any thread more than a year old if it gets posted on after being dormant for a time? What's the logic behind such thread closure?

Welcome (and welcome home), Tug. FYI, I expect that fewer than 20% of the people here are 21 years old, but I may be wrong.

I try to avoid taking my children to public beaches and cringe when we do so (which, ironically, is at my wife's insistence -- she's a beach bum) for this very reason. Current women's swimsuit "fashions" leave very little to the imagination. Even in my Stone Age childhood, women's swimsuits were revealing, and I got a lot of sex education ogling the women on the beach. I do not think this is a good thing, but as I wrote before, our society is so saturated with pornography that we don't even realize it any more.

My answerTo be clear: I don't mean only that we don't know the answer to the question. I mean that we don't even know if the question means anything.

Yes to both questions.

I'm all for thinking. I'm also all for realizing the limits of our revealed understanding. We might as well be speculating about whether, in celestial society, God is a university president or a grocer. We simply have no idea what we're talking about, or whether the ideas we're assuming and the terms we're using are even meaningful in that context (which is doubtful).I would also suggest that Gospel Essentials is exactly the place where such discussions should never occur. If such a question had been raised when I was teaching Gospel Doctrine, I would have said to the class that it was far outside the scope of the topics we were learning about, and cut off the discussion immediately. How much moreso when the class participants are mostly new to the gospel?

Funny. Having lived in both places, I suspect there are more people in the Tri-Cities who consider themselves refugees from Spokane. :)