Maureen

Hi Miss_Krystal, It's probably from the final lecture the future RM's get during those last weeks of their mission - "Now you must look for your eternal mate". It's seems some take it to heart and it's probably hard for some to break the "obey" mind-set from mission life. It will take some of them time to realize they can make their own decisions for their future. M.

Are you sure? I have no problem with any of them. If they work for you, then good for you. That's my motto! :) Are you trying to sound offensive? Explain. I'm just curious why SF thought Jason was being offensive. I thought he expained himself quite well. SF can you explain why you thought Jason was being offensive? M.

shanstress - I believe there are churches that do not require all worshippers to be members. I have a friend you did not agree with all of her church's statements of belief so she did not become a member per se but she attends her church, gives tithing and is involved in her church family. Find out if you have to become a member of the church to be active in the church - you might not. M.

Can't get rid of me. I haven't attended my Lutheran church in many years and it's been many years since I was confirmed (2 years of Confirmation classes), so I've looked up information that may help: Statement on Sacramental Practices Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada 4.0 ~ Practical Principles: Baptism 4.1 ~ Baptism is administered with water in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. 4.2 ~ In the baptismal celebration water is used generously. A variety of modes is used; pouring and immersion are rich symbols of the nature of Baptism. 4.3 ~ Candidates for Baptism are those children born to members of the congregation, children for whom other congregational members assume the responsibility of nurture in the faith, and older children or adults who, following preparation and instruction, declare their faith in Jesus Christ and desire Baptism. 4.4 ~ Baptism is preceded by a period of instruction. Such instruction in faith and life constitutes training in discipleship. When young children are baptized, the parents and sponsors are instructed; otherwise the baptismal candidates themselves are instructed. This training in discipleship continues for the life of the baptized. 4.5 ~ The celebration of the Sacrament of Baptism ordinarily includes the following: presentation, thanksgiving, renunciation of sin and evil, profession of faith, baptism with water, laying on of hands and invocation of the Holy Spirit, signing with the cross and welcome into the congregation. Note: Signing with the cross is new. When I attended my Lutheran church we did not sign the cross. 4.6 ~ Baptism normally takes place within the corporate worship of the congregation and is administered by an ordained minister called by the congregation or by an ordained minister granted permission by the former (Constitution for Synods, Article VII, Section 8). 4.7 ~ In cases of emergency, a person may be baptized by any Christian in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Should sudden death preclude such a Baptism, we believe the grace of God will prevail. http://www.worship.ca/docs/sp_stmt.html M.

It's me again. For clarification here's some definitions: e·lec·tion 3. Predestined salvation, especially as conceived by Calvinists. pre·des·ti·na·tion 2. Theology. a. The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation. b. The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation. c. The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come. I really enjoy going to bible.org, they have some great essays there to read. I especially like reading Dr. Daniel Wallace's essays. Here's his explanation of the doctrine of Election: My Understanding of the Biblical Doctrine of Election By: Daniel B. Wallace , Th.M., Ph.D. "I'm so glad that God chose me before the foundation of the world, because he never would have chosen me after I was born!" Charles Haddon Spurgeon The following is a brief discussion of what I understand the biblical doctrine of election to mean.... http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=1551 It's not a very long essay. M.

Hi shanstress - a bazillion years ago (or it seems that long) when LDStalk was young a poster named Kathryn came to visit and baptism was discussed. In explaining her churches thoughts on baptism she asked her pastor some questions and then she posted his response here and I liked it so much I kept a copy of it. Here's part of Pastor Bill's explanation regarding baptism: ...So what is the justification for infant baptism, since it is neither prohibited or prescribed in scripture. Basically it grew to be practiced in the early church (not specifically mentioned in the Bible, but written about in other ancient documents about life in the Christian community of that time) because of certain whole households being brought into the Christian faith. Everyone in those circumstances was baptized, women, slaves, children...everyone. Sometimes they were immersed, sometimes water was poured, and sometimes-because water is a scarce and precious commodity in that part of the world-water was simply applied. Water was the sign of the inward grace of God. Persons were "born of water and the spirit." The quantity of water was secondary to the reality of their being born anew into the Christian community and the way of eternal life by the gracious, unearned, un-sought-for act of God in the life, death, and resurrection Of Jesus Christ. What was it that Jesus said? "You did not choose me, but I chose you." (John 15:16) Do we choose grace? Does grace become effective in our lives only when we come to the age of decision. No, God's grace is already active and present in our lives from the moment of our birth...indeed, our conception. It is grace that chooses us. Baptism signifies that profound reality. We would be lost in the world were it not for God's reaching out to us in love and forgiveness. Baptism celebrates that grace we can never earn or deserve. "While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly....While we were yet sinners Christ died for us." (Rom. 5:6-8) Who demonstrates more powerlessness than an infant? (Except, of course, for the power that the infant has to get his/her parents to respond to every beck and call!) Now, all this is not to say that infant baptism is "superior" to youth or adult baptism as a sign of the radical grace of God. The point is that NO one stage of baptism is "superior" to any other. They all have their advantages and disadvantages. The point is the grace of God. When children are baptized, it is a sign (like everyone else who is baptized) of their entry into the family of faith. By baptism we are "adopted" into the family of Christ. For infants and children, it's like being adopted into a human family. They didn't choose to be adopted, like some children saying, "I didn't ask to be born into this family!. That's true. They didn't choose. The family chose them...chose to love and to nurture them, regardless.... In our baptism services you'll recall that everyone makes a covenant. (Find a UM Hymnal and look in the front at the Baptismal Covenant services) God reminds us of the covenant that God has made with us to be our God forever. Parents make a covenant to keep their child within the ministry of the church and to raise him/her in the Christian faith. And the congregation makes a covenant to nurture the child and the family in love and faith. All participate together in this nurturing covenant with the aim that one day, the child having grown and considered the faith that he/she has been raised in is, indeed, the faith the he/she now confirms in his/her own heart, mind, soul, and daily life. That's called "Confirmation" in the church... M.

Original sin can be explained by: So then, just as sin entered the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all people because all sinned-- for before the law was given, sin was in the world, but there is no accounting for sin when there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed. But the gracious gift is not like the transgression. For if the many died through the transgression of the one man, how much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man Jesus Christ multiply to the many! And the gift is not like the one who sinned. For judgment, resulting from the one transgression, led to condemnation, but the gracious gift from the many failures led to justification. For if, by the transgression of the one man, death reigned through the one, how much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ! (Romans 5:12-17) M.

I disagree with Sugarbay here. I doubt that dating a non-member sounds as evil as Sugarbay wants you to believe. You sound like an open-minded person Charlotte. I'm positive there are good LDS & non-LDS fellas out there that would be interested in dating you. You are after all only 16 and even though a mother, there are probably just as many open-minded fellas that would find your maturity and life experience facinating. A fella doesn't have to be LDS to be a good catch, use your good judgement when dating. M.

Seriously Maureen - do you really suppose that I don't know what a creed is? Actually I wasn't sure how you were defining it which is why I put the definition in my post. You were obviously putting words or thoughts in Christo's post that he did not intend - hence the need to be clear. See, you are doing it again. A creed is paraphrasing an already biblical belief - therefore it is not outside of biblical doctrine, it is agreeing with biblical doctrine. M.

After reading your post LJD, I was thinking the same thing Jason was - maybe it's not your husband you want to leave but the LDS church. In Star Trek canon there's something called the Mirror Universe, where the people are the same people but the culture and community are just the opposite, and the people's decisions and actions are directly influenced by that culture. From your description of the LDS women's remarks about children and such, I'm thinking they are from a different Mormon universe than what I'm familiar with. My friend has 7 children and here in Canada, during the time she married and had her kids (early 80's to early 90's) the majority of the wards here had large families. LDS members usually were baffled when they learned about other members who only had 2 kids. It is usually the non-LDS that are the confused ones when it comes to understanding couples who want extremely large families. I'm sure in hindsight you've realized that the LDS church probably influenced you in your decision to have a large family and the fact that you were very fertile probably helped. If you had never become an LDS member there's a good chance you wouldn't have had so many children. But since that's not what happened I think the best anyone can ever do is learn from life's lessons. Take everything you know about yourself, from how you've grown as a person and woman and make decisions that are good for you. You may need a sounding board to do that, so seek counseling if you think it will help. M.

I would guess email could be as accurate as any other information vehicle. There are ways to validate what information is being given. Wikipedia.org is a very up-to-date information service, but from my own experience not all information is correct - which is why wikipedia gives the reader the ability to edit errors. Even though, here is what Wikipedia says about Mr. Hinckley: On January 24, 2006, Hinckley underwent surgery to remove cancerous growths in his large intestine. According to Deseret News, the procedure went well and a rapid recovery is expected. He was released from the hospital on January 31. On March 10, 2006, Hinckley traveled to Santiago, Chile to rededicate a temple. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon_B._Hinckley M.

creed n. A formal statement of religious belief; a confession of faith. n 1: any system of principles or beliefs [syn: credo] 2: the written body of teachings of a religious group that are generally accepted by that group [syn: religious doctrine, church doctrine, gospel] As you can see from the definition Snow, a creed is a statement of religious belief, similar to the LDS' Articles of Faith. Creating a creed or statement of belief doesn't say in any way that scripture is insufficient. It is merely paraphrasing scriptural doctrine into concise statements. M.

Yes, the evils of dancing - one of the strange idiosyncratic beliefs of Pentecostals. M.

Really? Are you sure about that? Here's part of The Creed of Saint Athanasius: Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one, the Glory equal, the Majesty co-eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. M.

Does plenty constitute the majority of society; does plenty negate child support laws. The majority of society which includes the law still condemns those who choose to be irresponsible parents. M.

Heh, are you suggesting that until I brought it up, there was never any debate about what the “it” referred to?... He's saying just the opposite Ray, re-read what PC said: There's been debate... - meaning people have discussed this scripture. If you're really interested Ray in Matthew 16:18, give this link a try and see what you think: The Exegetical Examination of Matthew 16:18 By: Brittany C. Burnette Summary While some exegetes and theologians assert that the pevtra of this verse points to Jesus or the confession of Peter, the deliberate use of the pevtra-Pevtro" pun in 16:18, the only verse in the entire NT that contains both words, seems to indicate the Jesus specifically singled out the apostle Simon Peter as the “rock” in question. Peter is not given this position because he is inherently worthy; instead, he receives this title because he confessed his faith in the Messiah. Under the leadership of Peter, Jesus will build his own community (as seen in Acts), and nothing, not even death itself, will overcome the establishment of this body throughout history. Despite the fact that this exegesis points to Peter as the pevtra, the verse states nothing about Peter’s apostleship being passed down to future successors. It is the historical Peter who remains the “rock” of the Church156, and the exegesis of Matt 16:18 gives no indication that Jesus was establishing a permanent apostolic see for future Bishops of Rome. http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=2701 M.

Erin, maybe give this link a try: http://www.saginaw.org/prayer_family.htm M.

Why does there have to be a comparison. There are laws regarding child support and polygamy is illegal. I know of no-one in society that would congratulate the bum who avoids responsiblity for his children or the Polygamist who lives an unequal, lopsided lifestyle. Both arrangements are condemned by society. M.

Snow, I think you are forgetting the major issue of this thread and that is "polygamy" - which is illegal. So shanstress is correct because the illegal marriages that take place in these communities are between an adult male and a minor female. They are not legal marriages therefore the consummation of this non-marriage is still statutory rape. M.

There you go again. It is not rape plain and simple. Some of it may be morally reprehensible and some of it may be criminal but to dismiss all as simple rape is naive and uniformed If an adult male has sex with an underage person, it is called statutory rape, at least in my state. I'm just goin' by the law, Sir! I believe you are correct shanstress: Main Entry: statutory rape Function: noun : rape consisting of sexual intercourse with a person beneath an age (as 14 years) specified by statute NOTE: Many state statutes also specify a minimum age of the perpetrator or an age differential (as at least four years) between the perpetrator and the victim. Consent of the victim and belief that the victim is of the age of consent are usually considered immaterial. Statutory rape is now codified under various names, such as rape in the second degree rape in the third degree unlawful sexual intercourse with a minor, and criminal sexual conduct in the second degree. M.

Do you have hard data that supports this? I've heard this too many times, but I've yet to actually see evidence. Here's an article: Doctor: Birth defects increase in inbred polygamy community Associated Press/February 10, 2006 Salt Lake City -- A rare, severe birth defect is on the rise in an inbred polygamous community on the Utah-Arizona border, according to a doctor who has treated many of the children. Intermarriage among close relatives is producing children who have two copies of a recessive gene for a debilitating condition called fumarase deficiency. The enzyme irregularity causes severe mental retardation, epileptic seizures and other effects that often leaves children unable to take care of themselves. Dr. Theodore Tarby has treated many of the children at clinics in Arizona under contracts with the state. All are retarded, the neurologist told Salt Lake City television station KSL-TV. The children live in the twin polygamist communities of Hildale, Utah, and Colorado City, Ariz.... http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy417.html M.

'mom' - Read this link to give you an idea how polygamy can hurt a community (people) - from a former poygamous community member: http://helpthechildbrides.com/stories/laurachap.htm M.

Actually, I re-read the posts and I'm the one who first used the word plan, but I believe you misunderstood the context I was using it in. To re-cap Posts 11 and 13 were your posts, you said: Or in other words, we either choose to be like ourselves or somebody else, while others choose to be as they will be, and when I know I'm right because I am following God, I will only accept other people like me... who are also trying to help other people like me... who are also being as God wants us all to be. (Post 11) In other words, Maureen, when I know what is right or true by knowing that what I know has been inspired by God, I will then try to share what I know is right or true with others, trying to help other people know what I know and that they can know what I know is right or true by receiving that knowledge from God, as I have done, but if after trying to help other people come to know what I know, and seeing that other people do not accept what I tell them, or try to teach them, about how to know what is right or true, by getting that knowledge from God for themselves, then that is all there is to it, or all that I can do, and I will then go on being the way I know God wants me to be, with what I know about what is right or true, allowing other people to be however they want to be, in spite of the fact that I know God wants everybody to be in agreement with God and how God wants other people to be, which is the way I try to be. Or in other words, I try to be like I know God wants me to be, and I expect other people to be the same way, thinking that they must surely know that there is no better way to be than to be like God, but if other people don’t want to be like God, after I try to help them understand how God is, and how God wants other people to be, then that is all there is to it, because they have then shown that don’t want to be like God, or like me as I am trying to be like God, by finding out from God how God wants us all to be. (Post 13) I responded by wondering why you were limiting God’s diverse creation with thinking every person created should be the same, think the same, want the same. I used the word plans as in what people do, how they live, what they want, the fullness of their lives here on earth. I wasn’t referring to God’s plan of Salvation because that was not the subject. You were talking about “how God’s wants us to be”. I took that as our own personalities, our own idiosyncrasies, the choices we make for ourselves when we live our lives. So when you drastically changed the subject to Plan of Salvation, I thought you were going crazy. But I believe it's a misunderstanding on both of our parts. I have probably misunderstood what you mean by to be and you have misunderstood my response to you. I'm willing to let it rest. M.

Not true. I agree God has a plan of salvation. It can be troublesome though, when you change the subject of your "thoughts" mid-way through the thread. Yes, you are sharing what you think you know - but you tend to share it condescendingly, which can be quite annoying, IMO. I haven't proclaimed my knowledge of the gospel in this thread, yet. But if you want my beliefs, this is what I believe: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:8-10) M.

Oh my, not at all. In fact after reading your last posts, I am beginning to love the way your mind works mom_of_jcchlsm. It's great that you put so much thought into your kids names - I love messing with names. My friend also has 7 children and when her 4th one came we realized there was a pattern in their birth "dates". They either had a "7" or a "5" in the date. Her 5th and 6th followed suit but the 7th one decided to change the pattern and borrowed my daughter's birth date - and #7 happens to be the only red-head. I guess there is a method in her madness. M.