Maureen

LOL! No, he was the one that didn't have the choice. His parents told him he was getting baptized, he had no say in the matter. But then that was 50 years ago, maybe today's parents are doing things differently. M.

My husband would disagree with you. Maybe things have changed. M.

Sure, in the Lutheran church many parents baptize their infants and of course the baby does not understand what is happening but learns as they grow. Confirmation is the personal event for the older child, when confirming their faith in God. Teenagers take confirmation classes for two years and are confirmed, which makes them ready to take communion. I understand that the LDS child makes covenants at their baptism but it's the parents (and church) that prepare them and teach them about what it all means. Do LDS children have a say in whether they want to be baptized or do the parents make that decision for them? M.

From what I have found the Lutheran churches around the world are many. I do not know if they all follow the same Baptism protocol but I would not be surprised if they did. I did find this information on what is expected of parents who request Baptism for their children: When you present your child for Baptism, you also make very important promises. You promise to: Help your child grow in faith by the devotional and prayer life in your home. Help your child grow in faith within the community of faith, the Church, and Take every opportunity to show your child God’s steadfast love and mercy given in Baptism. http://brfelc.org/worship/occasional-services/baptisms/ M.

We'll @estradling75, don't beat about the bush say what you really mean. If my presence on the forum has been such an irritation to you and your fellow moderators than why not ban me. If I've broke rules by not being a believing member of your church, then by all means kick me off. This thread has nothing to do with if I feel your church is inspired or not. In my mind it was about looking at these type of family situations where young children should be able to be young children and not be put in a position where they have to pick sides. You of course see Roo's situation different. She's a member of your church therefore she's on the right path and that's all that matters. How dare I come in here to say maybe that wasn't the best choice for her at such a young age. So what if that's what I think, how does that feeling attack your church? M.

Participation is different than baptism. When children are baptized, it's usually because the parents are baptized members. I'm not sure if the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Canada baptizes children without their parents being members. M.

This thread is not about a disagreement, even though the majority of posters see it as that. I've stated already why I started the thread and obviously the majority of posters that have responded are offended by it. If you don't like the thread, don't respond to it. If no one responds, it will die, like all threads eventually do. Anyway - how have I attacked the LDS church in this thread? Is having an opinion about a subject that I started attacking? And if this has been a pattern, you should have no problem proving it by showing me these other posts. M.

You think that because a child reaches the "age of accountability" that that automatically means they understand the baptism covenants they are agreeing to make. I doubt even LDS children understand exactly what it all means at the age of 8, and they've probably been taught about it for years. Did you understand everything about your baptism and the covenants you were making when you were 8 (assuming that's when you were baptized)? That's not at all what I am saying; you're just being a lazy reader. I'm saying that a 9 year old from a non-LDS family is too young to join the LDS church by themselves, even with their parents' permission, because it can put them in a difficult family position if at some point in their young lives they're caught in the middle of a battle between the church and their family. There, I've practically said it twice. M.

Really, there's only one way? A child can go about investigating the same as an adult? M.

I understand the LDS church's belief about the age of accountability. I know LDS parents typically baptize their children when the child turns 8. But is this a hard and fast rule? The parents if they so choose, can wait and have their child baptized at an older age. My concern is that a young child not brought up in the LDS church is not taught about baptism and membership like an LDS child is taught. Are they old enough to really understand what they are agreeing to when they decide they want to join the church? And do their non-LDS parents also understand? I can see if the child might have an extended family member who is LDS that can provide advice and support when needed but what happens to that child if at some point in the future, the parents change their mind (like Roo's parents) and are no longer supportive but negative towards the church. Is that fair for the child to be put in the middle of defending their church while still honouring their parents? M.

I'm really not sure how a 9 year old approaches the LDS church to be baptized. In Roo's case it sounds like her LDS friends may have suggested she take the discussions. If a "policy" were to be set for such young investigators; I think it would be easy enough for a missionary or ward member to let the minor investigator and/or their parents know what the rules are. And I'm sure it could be done without being rude. M.

I think you are the one doing the assuming @Carborendum. My only speculation of Roo's parents' thoughts is shown in the quote above. M.

Wow @estradling75, a reasonable and considerate reply. Thanks. M.

My thought in starting the thread was because of how I thought Roo's family situation must be hard for her and I was surprised that the church and her parents allowed her to join the LDS church at such a young age. It brought to mind one of the reasons why the LDS church decided to not baptize children from gay families. So I just put the two together. There's always a chance that a thread will not be well accepted or even interesting, but I took that chance. This is after all, a message board, where threads are started and talked about. M.

How have I attacked the LDS church? You don't like my opinion so you think it's an attack? Part of that is true, I thought the policy went against the idea of "Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." But if part of the LDS church's reason for creating this policy is to “...protect children in their innocence and in their minority years...." then why can't that apply to young children in non-LDS families too. And I have not said anything about Roo's situation being unChrist-like. M.

You make it sound like that's a bad thing. What's wrong with being concerned for children? M.

Yes in a way; like considering the child's age and their family situation. If a basic rule like, no child between the age of 8 to 13 can be considered a potential member unless at least one person of their immediate or extended family is also a member, then I think that protects the child. M.

@estradling75, if you don't like this thread, no one is making you respond to it. I have no problem with an older child, age 16/17 make that decision to join the LDS church, with their parent's permission. My concern is when the child is young, like 8 to 13 and they have no other LDS members in their family for support. It's great that the ward is there for the new young member, but that child is still so young that I wonder do they even know what they are agreeing to when they join the LDS church and how that might affect their family life. In these cases no one has a crystal ball, but for the sake of the child, I would think it would be best to have them be older when joining the church. M.

It's there, maybe you're just not special enough to see it. It's right under the avatar. M.

Am I getting the correct impression from these posts; that baptizing someone, no matter what age (unless they come from a gay family) is more important than that person's relationship with their family members. If a person looses their family due to joining the LDS church, so be it. Baptism is more important than family harmony? M.

Are you projecting your own thoughts onto me? Typically the parents of a minor investigator do not do the requesting, it is the church that requests permission from the parents. M.

I don't blame the LDS church for how Roo's parents feel. But I do believe there should have been some inspiration in realizing how family dynamics can change with a very young member and her non-LDS family. If the LDS church is inspired to see possible problems occurring in gay families, it's really not that hard to know it can happen in non-LDS families too. M.

How is this subject considered an axe to grind? After reading a few of Roo's post it occurred to me that she's put in the middle of a difficult situation. She's only 13, on one hand she's a member of the LDS church who teaches about forever families and sealings and on the other hand she's a member of her non-LDS family that at the moment doesn't think very highly of the LDS church. I really hope she can navigate her life where she can be happy with her church and family, and the two don't have to be at odds with each other. M.

Yes I definitely think the LDS church should take some responsibilty when baptizing a child so young whose parents aren't members. How do you know what Roo's parents knew or thought? If the LDS church is concerned about disrupting the family dynamics in a gay household, why not be just as concerned in a non-LDS household? M.

When I read one of Roo's post I initially thought that her parents had been LDS and then left the church but her later thread cleared it up that her parents are non-LDS. My thinking on the matter is, what is too young to make a decision to join a church different than your upbringing? Roo was 9 years old when she joined without her parents or any other family members. Why would her parents give their permission unless maybe they deemed her joining not very important or serious. I'm just wondering if Mission Presidents should counsel non-LDS parents about the seriousness of LDS membership when the baptized child is so young. M.