rampion

I thought I had replied to this. I hope I didn't say something wrong. My post isn't here now. I just wanted to say try the social groups. I hadn't realized that you are male. It is harder to find support groups for male victims of sexual abuse, but that doesn't mean that you have any less need of support. You might need to start a group, or look at another site. One that is set up for mental health support is Forums at Psych Central Even though you have a therapist, you still need someone to talk to. Therapists provide professional treatment, but they can't be there for you the way that peers can. You need both. And it can be hard to talk about stuff like that in person, especially with strangers. Online support made it possible for me to start being able to talk to people.

Check the social groups on this site. There is one, at least, that you will find supportive. There are other forums, outside of this one, for support with mental health issues. Try Forums at Psych Central I'm Rapunzel over there, and I used to be a mod there. But I got demoted after I had a BPD moment (ok, more like a month) over religion being a prohibited topic. Now I have a religion social group on that site. But I'm not a mod anymore. The mods are still not pros, but something can be said for peer support. Especially when you are getting professional treatment. Having someone that you can talk to about the things you need to talk about is really important, and therapists can't be available the way that peers can. I found that the anonymity of the internet made it possible to talk when I wasn't able to otherwise.

Also talk to your bishop about what is going on, including the depression. There is treatment available, and bishops can connect you with available resources. Medication makes it easier to manage, but doesn't fix anything. Make sure you get counseling too. I spent way too many years going through the motions, and not living my life, and that was not good. I didn't know how to get help, at least not real help. But it is there, and you can turn around and grow from this. Heavenly Father promises to use our suffering and turn it to our benefit, and He can if you ask Him to.

Mailis, I would really love to go to Norway and be a counselor there. It is fairly recent that mental health professionals in the U.S. have started to recognize the benefits and importance of religion. It will catch on there too in time.

Scary.

Have you tried asking him what he wants you to understand about him that he doesn't think you understan, and really listening to his answer? People do everything for a reason. He wouldn't be acting this way if he didn't feel that he needs to in order to get a need met somehow. You can also carefully observe and make note of when he acts out, what is going on before it happens, and what happens afterwards. When you understand that, you will have some important clues to what he is getting out of it (basic motivations are to get something or to avoid something). Punishment is not the most effective way to get people to change. It just tends to feel validating to the person doing the punishing. More effective ways are to help him find more effective ways to get his needs met, and to make it rewarding for him to use those appropriate strategies. Don't go overboard though. There is a certain degree of subtlety involved. It's best if you do it in such a way that he thinks it is his idea to change. Feel free to PM me if you are interested in talking about this.

There's only so much that we can do about the conditions out there in the world, other than to not invite those things into our own lives, homes, communities. Finding solutions takes looking at what factors that we are responsible contribute to the problem, and what we can do about them. Why are all those LDS people getting divorced? It wouldn't surprise me if there are some things, besides what is going on in the world, within our culture and the church, that become problems. I haven't interviewed a representative sample of broken up LDS couples to present a confident answer, but there is one thing that stands out to me. Especially in some parts of Utah, but also throughout the church, young people are bombarded with that temple marriage is the most important thing and nothing else should matter. As a result, people feel pressured just to get to the temple and get married as fast as they can, and they don't spend enough time first growing up and discovering themselves as individuals and learning what is important to them. Some take a leap of faith and marry before they are ready to support themselves, especially the women, who don't think that they will need to have careers because they ought to be at home with the kids. So we have a lot of marriages between two people who aren't complete alone and think that being sealed to someone else will solve all of their problems. These are marriages that are at risk because in a healthy relationship both people are complete, and together they share who each of them is, and each of them knows and is responsible for himself or herself. So, I think we need to address the pressures and the unrealistic expectations that many of our young people have, so that they can make better choices from the start. Maybe relationship counseling should be encouraged before marriage, for everyone, because as a group we have some big misconceptions about relationships.

Tithing can be a very complicated question. I wonder about whether I should pay tithing on student loans. I think that it is not really increase since I don't actually get to have the money and spend it any way that I want to (although I can use some of it for living expenses, after tuition). Also, I don't get to keep it. I will have to pay it back to the lender plus interest. So I think it is not really income, any more than the loan on your house or car is income. Another question I have is for people who live at poverty level (or maybe also those of us who live beyond our means), and when you add up the monthly bills compared to net income, there isn't ten percent left. Under those circumstances, I have tried to pay tithing and kept it up for a few months before bills got out of hand and I had no choice but to pay the bills instead of tithing. I didn't need welfare to pay the bills, but simply couldn't pay them and also pay tithing. At some points I was doing without luxuries like heating the house beyond enough to keep pipes from freezing, and wearing heavy coats all of the time. I struggle with tithing, because often my ideal is beyond my capabilities. I would rather live the law of consecration, and volunteer anything that I have including my services or goods that I can produce. But maybe the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. When the law of consecration was attempted, people refused to give their excess, for fear that they might actually need it, or maybe they thought that they could make better use of it than the Lord could (or the bishop or prophet or other who might receive it). It really is easier said than done. Even if I offered my services, how easy would it be to say I just really don't have any extra time this week because of all of the other demands on my time. I'm not sure that I have any real answers here, other than that I can offer ideals. Ultimately it is between an individual and the Lord.

I remember my uncle giving me twenty pennies or nickles, with the point being to count how much tithing to pay and to remember to pay tithing on that income. My kids pay tithing on birthday money, etc., as well as on any earnings that they have (well, unless they forget or choose not to - nobody is perfect). My understanding is that we pay tithing, not because we earned money, but because it is a commandment, and so that we will remember that all that we have comes from the Lord, whether we worked to get it or not. It seems like it would have been easier when people tithed on what their lands produced, because maybe it would have been easier to see that all of that grain or fruit or whatever grew because God caused it to, rather than I go to work and my employer deposits money in my bank account. But I digress. I would tend to feel that the purpose of youth paying tithing is so that they will learn that all that they receive is the Lord's, irregardless of why they receive it. But maybe the purpose of the pocket money would make a difference. For example, if I gave my children money that was to pay for their lunch or school fees or some other specific purpose, then I would not expect that they would pay tithing on that money. If it is their discretionary money that they can spend as they choose, then I would think that the decision to pay tithing would come into play.

Thanks for trusting us with your story. I am really glad that you are finding acceptance from others here and from your local church leaders too. Your journey is not an easy one, but you have the attitude that will help you, since you are open and honest and willing to accept love from God and others. You deserve credit for your part in that too.

It seems that we are more independent thinkers now than members were expected to be back in 1945. And I think that is both good and bad in some ways. On the one hand, we have become more proud and stiff-necked and individualistic. People expect a lot out of life, and too many of us sacrifice important things for the sake of getting things that we want, leisure activities, careers, etc. It is a problem when we put ourselves first and live beyond our means, fail to help our neighbors, sacrifice family, etc. I'm probably as guilty as anyone. But there can also be too much dependence on someone else to tell us everything. Maybe sometimes we ask for more council from our leaders than is their responsibility to give. The Lord said that it is not meet that we should be commanded in all things. God expects us to think for ourselves, even when we go to Him. We should figure out some solutions and pray to know whether it is right. The sheep metaphor has its place, but can be taken too far. Sheep are better off when they trust and follow the shepherd, but if we act like sheep all the time and don't do our own thinking, we will get into trouble. In our time, God doesn't generally tell us which career to choose, who to marry, where to go on vacation, what to have for lunch (the details, anyway), etc. I wonder if it might have been different in earlier years. In pioneer times, people were apparently given callings to go and settle particular places. One of my ancestors immigrated from Scandinavia, and was sent to Gunnison to be a farmer. He unfortunately wasn't good at farming and never did well at it, and we have too many stories in that line about people who died in farming accidents. It was recorded that these good pioneers never murmured or complained. I'm not so sure that I buy all of that, or maybe if they just went along with it, perhaps it would have been better for this ancestor if he had spoken up and said that he was not a farmer, but a taylor, and needed to find work that he was suited for. My family tends to be overly passive, and it does not serve us well. I think that it would have been better for me if I had been taught growing up that I was responsible for my life and my choices, rather than that I would live the life that my parents expected that I would, no questions asked. Church leaders are sometimes like parents. They want what is best for us, and they do their best, but sometimes they may be prone to overstepping their boundaries, and when they do, we need to have boundaries and be responsible for ourselves and our decisions.

:) It's good, isn't it?

The people in the BOM must have been ready for more than the ones in Jerusalem, so they were given more. But where much is given, much is expected. They didn't always live up to what they knew and what they had, with serious consequences. There were also some later books in the Old Testament, such as Malachi, which were written after Lehi left Jerusalem. But Lehi and his family had most of the Old Testament, including Isaiah, obviously. And when Jesus visited after the ressurection, He gave them a bit more (parts of Malachi, etc.)

Ok, I think that God certainly could have and probably did use evolution, but why limit him to that? We can see evidences of evolution, in lots of areas. Animal breeders can select for characteristics that they prefer and come up with a different style of animal or "improve" a breed to be what they want it to be. It's an excruciatingly slow process, but it works. Even for animal breeders, they can speed up the process a lot by finding what they want someplace else and importing it. Yeah, I think God used evolution as a tool. But not exclusively, and not all here, or even all someplace else. Adam and Eve were placed in the garden. They came from somewhere. I would guess that God brought enough variety of animals, plants, etc. here from someplace else so that they could develop into the varieties that He hoped to have on this Earth. I rather like the concept of evolution. Who hasn't felt an idea evolve into something better than it started out to be? As individuals, aren't we evolving into who we are meant to be? Evolution is a process of growth and change for the better. Isn't that what God is all about? But I don't think that we understand all that there is to understand.

I have theorized before that in a group of people who believe that alcohol, drugs, cigarettes, gambling, compulsive sexual behaviors, etc. are not an option, they will deal with stress in some other way, which may or may not be healthy. I'm willing to bet that there are increased percentages of Mormons or others with similar values who develop eating disorders, overuse of prescription or OTC medications, compulsive caretaking behaviors (aka co-dependence), self-injurious behaviors, OCD, and any number of other problems, including depression and anxiety. And we don't generally self-medicate with alcohol or illegal drugs. Everybody has stress. Some more than others. Some are more sensitive to it than others. And not everybody deals with it in the same way. Maybe people in Utah are more likely to turn to prescriptions rather than psychotherapy also. I think that there is a bias or fear against the influence of therapists, especially if they don't have the same values that we do. And even LDS therapists are educated in a modality that favors science over spirituality. It's only recently that the mental health profession has started to recognize how important spirituality is to mental health and overall well-being. I'm willing to admit that I'm LDS, and I struggle with depression and anxiety. Sometimes quite severely. Although I don't take prescription anti-depressants, I self-medicate with herbs and light therapy and go to therapy. But I'm not a typical Utah Mormon. I'm from out of state. There are differences. Yes, the pressure to have the perfect family, raise perfect children, and put half a million things ahead of ourselves has been a major contributor for me. And also lack of family support. My children didn't even meet my mother until my oldest was almost in Kindergarten. That's not typical of the LDS people. And nobody else stepped in to help (some did step in to criticize). I wondered a lot if it never occurred to anyone that we don't all have supportive extended families. But everybody has stress. We just don't all deal with it the same way.

Gretchen, You can make more friends. In fact, you probably have more friends than you know. None of us have success in all of our relationships, but we can always learn and try again. What are you doing to try to cope? Believe me, I get to that point too where it seems like everyone would be better off without me. But there are plenty of people who are glad that you are around, and you deserve to make the most of your time here on earth. It is up to you to decide how you are going to cope with the setbacks in your life, but if you are at a loss for ideas, go back through this thread and look for some. I challenge you to reply to this post and tell me/us at least five things that you can do to help yourself. Constructive, positive things. No destructive coping, ok?

Social anxiety and depression sure do make it tough to get into the swing of things and find the connection and sense of belonging that we need as human beings. I know. I also know that the only answer is to learn to deal with ourselves, where and when and how we are. It's impossible to really connect with others when we aren't okay with ourselves. We keep ourselves hidden from them because of our fear of being rejected. If we don't share our real selves, then only the surface presentation can get rejected outright. But even though that's safe, it isn't fulfilling because our real selves never get the chance to be accepted or loved either. Have you heard the saying, "bloom where you are planted?" If you wait to start living and being yourself and connecting until you are somewhere else, you will get there and find that it isn't really different. That's because you will still be the same you. Another one is that fixating on either the past or the future keeps us stuck. Life isn't there. Life is here in the present. We have to start living in the now. Sometimes that's hard too. It is fine to have goals, and to look back and figure out what got you to where you are, but you have to apply it to where and when you are right now. So, here's a question for you. If you woke up tomorrow and your life was changed for the better and the problems you are dealing with were gone, what would be different?

Well, part of my issue is that I keep finding myself with no opportunities to do any of the outside stuff during the week until Sunday, and then I want to go outside and do all the outside stuff that I never get to do because I'm not likely to get another chance until it's Sunday again. I'm starving for sunshine and for exercise, and not organized enough to get it during the week. I don't have any other days off most of the time. So I'm really wanting to do more than just go outside. I'm really wondering where the limit is. My family growing up was pretty strict about going through the motions correctly, even though the spirit was missing. We weren't allowed to go outside at all if it was Sunday. Except to the car to go to church. Playing wasn't allowed (not that any of us really knew how to play anyway). Being normal, developmentally appropriate kids was frowned upon in my family any day of the week. We weren't ever encouraged to be physically active much in any way. So part of what I'm trying to sort out is where is the line between what the church teaches and what are the lingering fragments from my dysfunctional childhood. And I'm finding myself lost. I've even had visiting teaching partners who didn't think it was right to go visiting teaching on Sunday. That one confuses me. By the way, I wasn't raised in Utah, and never had Mormon neighbors before I came to Utah, so had no point of reference to counteract my family's wierdnesses. And, within my earshot, my neighbor didn't say anything about Sunday to her daughter, but was talking about snow laundry and making a mess. I probably assumed that her real issue was that it was Sunday morning, especially since they are a family that spends a lot of time in the yard normally. And then we have nonmember friends who don't understand why playing or working outside on Sunday is a problem at all. Some, who are Catholic, tell me about the Priest going out to play soccer with the kids right after church, and I'm wondering if we maybe take it to an extreme. Is it more gospel-related or culture-related? Could we have a discussion about what outdoors activities most LDS people feel are okay on the sabbath? Like, how about going for a walk? What if it turns into a jog? Is exercise on Sunday not okay? And what about for those of us who are confined to indoor offices and computers all week? Sitting at the computer feels like more of the same to me. Is part of the point of keeping the sabbath that Sunday should be different from every other day? I can sometimes feel a difference in the air on Sunday, more outside than I can inside. I can see how it can be a trap. I had a seminary teacher who told about how he started staying home from church to work in his yard and garden. After a while he was spending all day on Sundays outside doing yardwork and taking care of the flowers, etc., and he looked forward to being out there and getting compliments from all the people who would see him working and tell him how beautiful his yard was. But he became inactive doing that. But to me, that's an example of a lack of moderation. Too much of anything can become destructive or addictive. Is there a difference between this example and pulling a few weeds after church? I'm confused. That's why I'm asking.

Oh, and I am very skilled at being hard on myself, but not so good at stopping or even identifying if I take it too far.

Thanks for sharing that. I think that life changes from one time to another. This morning I was thinking about the Israelites being forbidden to gather manna on Sunday. But it was what they did every day. It's not like that for us. I could go to the store and buy all the pears I want, but I wanted to do something with my pears, and I don't get to do that every day. I still have tons of apples out there too, but I think that a little snow might actually enhance them, so I didn't worry that much about the apples. I'll try to get them on Saturday. Anybody want some apples? I fee the ones that fall on the ground to the goats, and there are still tons on the trees. Not sprayed though, so there are bugs.

So, almost the ox in the mire situation, huh? But there is the question of did I make and follow through with plans to pick the pears earlier. And I planned to, but never got it done.

The fruit could have been picked earlier, and I had asked my kids to, but they didn't. And I had planned to on days that I was going to work later, but wasn't able to for various reasons. Yeah, there is a difference between taking a walk and picking fruit, but for some things it's a fine line. Riding horses is work for some people, recreation for others. Part of my question is that I always wish that I could get out and trim the roses or do some gardening even though it's Sunday, because I don't get the opportunity to do any of that most of the rest of the week. For me, the kind of rest that I need is to get outside and do something, preferably active, because I never get the chance to. And I don't know how I feel about that.

So I woke up this morning, Sunday, to see snow all over the yard and the trees and everything outside. Winter and I have never gotten along well and at first I just wanted to hibernate. My 10-year-old son was already out there enjoying the white stuff, having broken out his snow suit and all his winter gear (while neglecting to wear socks, LOL!). I had an attitude adjustment and thought at least I have a good reason to go outside and get some exercise shoveling the driveway and sidewalks, because that has to be done, right? I don't know if it didn't stick there or if a thoughtful neighbor with a snowblower beat me to it, but there was no snow on the driveway or sidewalks. Darnit, I got out my snow boots and snow shovel for nothing. So I decided I could at least shovel the back deck. I have a very heavy work/school/internship schedule (plus commuting) that keeps me in an office at a computer, or a classroom, or in the car, almost all day and until dark, sometimes six days a week. I really want to spend some time outside sometime, but I have a serious lack of time Monday through Saturday. I have set limits so that I don't have work or school, etc. on Sunday. I feel that for me it would be rest to go outside and do something and appreciate the animals and the trees and the flowers and the garden (very limited due to my time, not lack of space or resources - we have an acre of land and chickens and goats, etc. - the children mostly take care of the animals now), and this world that God gave us. And I shrivel and become incapacitated with inadequate sunshine. I have seasonal affective disorder. Back to the story. After I shoveled the deck I noticed that my pear trees and apple trees still have a lot of good fruit on them that probably won't last too well in the snow, so, yes, I picked a few apples that were in easy reach, then I got some bags and went up the ladder to salvage the rest of the pears (I had picked pears to give to others, but not kept any because I didn't have time to can them - I can't even remember if I have eaten even one pear this year - I think my cousin gave me one back to eat of the ones I took to her). My son continued building a snow tower, excited that I was outside with him for once. And the neighbor, who I get along with well and consider a friend, came out and yelled at her daughter who had also gotten out her winter gear and was at the fence talking to my son. And then I thought, oh yeah, it's Sunday and we are being a bad influence. She didn't say anything to me or my son, but now I'm worried about what she thinks of me, out there picking pears in the snow on Sunday and allowing my son to play in the snow. I have wished so many times that I could go out on a Sunday morning or evening and trim the roses or do something with the garden or just do something outside. I usually don't dare, so it never gets done. I'll go out and say hello to the goats and chickens. What do you think? In this modern world when so many of us are locked up inside all week, is it a bad thing to go outside on Sunday? That at least breaks the routine of sitting here at the computer like I do all the time. We have the late church schedule, and I'll be there. I'm just hoping I didn't make a bad mistake this morning.

Glad you liked it.

We don't know what it was, and we are not judges even if we did. It may not be as serious as it seemed to us. But if it bothers you this much, you should tell your bishop. It will feel better knowing that you really are worthy when you go to the temple. We don't know if it is something that will cause you to have to reschedule anything or not.