Jenda

Seriously? Isn't kinda like denying that WW II really happened? Or believing that the earth is only 6000 years old? Yeah. But I can't make them see or believe the truth.

"Edit" button?

Interesting. I'd like Jenda's take on this. My understanding was that all of the RLDS and offshoots believed that if Smith did authorize polygamy, that he was a "fallen" prophet (at least temporarily). I assume that this fallen status would include Smith's failed attempt at translating the so-called Book of Abraham, and other like items? Interesting. Does the CoC baptise like the LDS? In other words, do they dunk you one time, in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost? The RLDS Restorationists (for the most part) do not believe that Joseph Smith had anything to do with polygamy. They do not believe that Joseph translated the BoA by the gift of the Holy Spirit and that it was never intended to be used as scripture. They do reject the things that happened at Nauvoo, however, they do not take the stance that he was a fallen prophet. That I do is because I am a hybrid. After being part of the liberal CoC for most of my life, and knowing, intimately (almost) real church history, there are some things I cannot deny, and so I do believe him to be a fallen prophet even though I am a restorationist. I do believe that he did repent of being associated with polygamy (even though I believe he did not practice it, I do believe he was associated with it) and worked to stamp it out prior to his death, and that that is one of the reasons for his death.Yes, they dunk once in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Is this the reason why you (Restorationist LDS) reject some of the teachings of Joseph Smith's later years? I'm not sure if you mean Restorationist RLDS or Reorganized LDS.But anyway, as everyone is entitled and encouraged to study the scriptures to come to their own belief so that we cannot be accused of being spoonfed, , I would say that everyone has his/her own belief about this question. But I would say that, on the whole, that would be correct. Maybe.

How is an organization different than individuals? It seems you may have this backward because an organization cannot change a thing, only the individuals involved can make any change. But then, who is to say that since "you" didn't change you were then the one in apostasy because you didn't follow? Such a conundrum of sorts! Everyone accuses the other of being in apostasy, when they of course are not In Christ I Serve, Thunderfire An organization is made up of individuals. Not all individuals have the same goals, motivations, beliefs, etc. And, IMO, the higher in an organization a person is, the less motivated by God and the more motivated by self he is.

That's an interesting way of looking at things, Dawn. Would you be willing to elaborate more on this? Well, I think that it is obvious in the LDS church, as well as my church, and the Catholic church, as well as most man-made organizations, that people in leadership positions alter the beliefs and ordinances to whatever suits them, but even so, God calls individuals to Him despite the inaccurate teachings that are espoused.That D&C scripture that I posted in the above post was given before the church was organized, so therefore, it was not referring to an organized church structure. The same thing is stated in the Bible. John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, 13 who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. I have come to the belief that the Kingdom of God is not going to be built by a church, but by those who hear His voice and respond with their hearts. Do we need an organized church? Yes, because it is through such that God's authority is bestowed, but God can withdraw His authority from an organization when they cease following His commandments and teachings.

Yes. As the Creed states: "I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church." Oh, well, that doesn't mean anything, at least according to our friends on CF (namely the owner.) He doesn't have to believe in the apostolic church, but I do, for some reason. I just wanted to know because you seem to believe that people can go in and out of apostasy, but never responded about the church, itself. Yet in the D&C it is stated D&C 3:16a Behold, this is my doctrine: Whosoever repenteth and cometh to me, the same is my church; (RLDS (it is somewhere in the LDS D&C B) )). It is my opinion that the organization can go into apostasy by altering the beliefs and ordinances and all the other stuff I listed on the other board (or in other words, denying the truth of the gospel), but that individuals cannot. That is just the opposite that you believe. God kept "the church", His bride, from danger by allowing individuals to come to Him throughout the ages whether or not the institutional church was receiving His blessings or not.

That's a tough one. I've still got a lot of my Mormon paradigm in me, so Im hesitant to really say. I suppose if I had to answer right now, I'd simply state that apostasy is rejecting the Gospel of Christ. As a side note, I don't believe that changes in the organization of the Church constitutes apostasy (unlike some of my LDS friends), simply because there isn't an organization or Church on earth that hasn't undergone change. We know that the organization of the Church changed from Christ's lifetime to the Apostolic age, and again during the sub-Apostolic age. Overall since then, not much has changed in the Greek (Eastern Orthodox) Church. (Nothing of note anyway.) Im not sure I understand your question. Let me see if I can respond anyways: Im not positive that there was an institution called the "Church" (used loosely by the way) in Old Testament times. God had his chosen people, and he would punish those people from time to time according to their faithfulness to his word. He sent prophets to his chosen people to chastise and remind them to do their duty. Sometimes these prophets were received by the people, other times they were not. (It might be a good time to mention that they were never "voted" on.) Fast forward to Christ and the beginning of the last days. Christ fulfilled many prophecies that in the last days, a "prophet" like Moses (a great law-giver and teacher) would be raised up, and that all men who rejected that prophet would be real sorry. The Apostles often spoke of apostasy, warning various churches who were straying to get themselves back in line with the true teachings and sacraments of the Gospel. Yet, as Christ's bride, the Church was never in danger of death. Christ will not abandon His bride! I see apostasy as an ever occuring, on going, part of the life of the Church. Whether individuals or groups of churches (Coptics, Assyrians, Roman Catholics, etc) apostatize, the Great Church will continue on until the Bridegrooms return. Not sure if I answered your question or not. Let me know. Can I state with some degree of accuracy that you believe that apostolic succession is important? I only ask because you went from one institution that believes in apostolic authority to another.

Jason, time for me to ask you a couple of questions. First, what is your definition of apostasy? And second, do you not believe there is a difference between God removing his blessing from an institution as opposed to people?

This is exactly how I feel. When I went from being liberal back to being conservative, this is how I felt. I felt that God blessed me more because I began putting my faith in Him rather than searching here and there for fulfillment. I felt called to obey His word. It may not satisfy other peoples questions, but it is true, nonetheless.

What is Simony?

In which case, it won't last any longer.

Strawberry, If I remember right, it was an indirect comment at that. Something like: "There are those who would say that Mormonism was as phoney......." It's frustrating talking to a brick wall. I should have known better.... I did warn you, didn't I????

Sooo.......... now that you have told us who you aren't, maybe you can tell us who you are!

I don't see your avatar. That's strange...can anybody else see it? or just me? I see it just fine; nice kitty. OK who is puuling the cats tail here? I don't see Jendas or Pushkas but I see the rest who have them at least. :) You don't see my avatar??? Aaackkk! I got my avatar as a special request by several ladies here. Can the rest of you see it? I can see Pushka's Pushka.

I just took the first couple of letters from my youngest daughter's first and middle name and squashed them together. I post on all the boards with either this or my real name. I don't know what she will use as a screen name when she gets old enough to post on bulletin boards.

Winnie, you can be such a good friend. :) I think that the reason many people who kill themselves don't think about the pain they leave behind is because their own pain is sooo great that they can't see past it.

Has there even been a mormon mass murderer or serial killer? (I do know there has been on RLDS one, back in 1990.)

It's a matter of historical fact, Amillia. The LDS church, on the other hand, has undergone relative mild persecution in comparison. Correct me if Im wrong, but I don't recall a mormon being burned at the stake, crucified, or thrown to the lions just for being mormon. And all of that done under the auspicies of the US Government. I don't agree. I think you are not facing facts. Too bad. Amillia, you are not facing reality. The LDS have changed the restored gospel much more in the short 160 years they have been around than the church that was begun in Rome in 361 AD (or whatever year that was.)

There is a difference between discussing theology and being miserable, Amillia, and your post is close to being pulled as it is not speaking to the issue.

Dawn, Your ideal job is a God. That is really interesting. Last time it told me Satan.

How about this little doozie? http://www.jobpredictor.com/

Well, Marsha, we are here, but when we come in and it is already done, there isn't much we can do to stop it. We have already discussed the situation.

You got mail, too.

You have mail.