mikbone

I have 2 favorites Job Joseph Smith D&C 121 & 122

Thats kinda the crux of the Widtsoe/Skousen model. The lessor intelligences Honor God because he is honorable. If for some reason God became dishonorable, he would lose the honor and respect of these lesser intelligences and would cease to be God.

I have ascribed to Skousen's model of the Atonement ever since I read Appendix B in his book The First 2,000 Years back in the 80's. I was wondering how many members here are aware of Skousen's intrepretation. And of those who are aware of his intrepretation, who likes it and dislikes it. And if you do like it, is your intrepretation of Skousen's intrepretation the same as mine? Found a copy of it on the net, thanks Google! Why Was the Atonement Necessary Here is also a speech that he gave on the same topic. It was an address to the missionaries in the Dallas Texas Mission back in 1980. A Personal Search for the Meaning of the Atonement We should really call it the Widtsoe/Skousen Model though. Now that I reviewed the above speech.

Re-introduce him to the Great USA! Take him out to eat real american food. See a movie. More than likely he is gonna need a new wardrobe also. My father made me burn all the clothes that I though were "nice" that I brought home from my mission in Chile.

I haven't been following this thread very closely and was wondering if we have made any progress?

I agree with Ogre. My family and my in-laws live in Texas. We live in California and love it here.

Heavenly Father is our God. He presented us with the opportunity to progress by receiving a body and provided a Savior (Jesus Christ) for us. In our pre-existence we made a covenant with Heavenly Father to follow His Plan of Salvation. Is Heavenly Mother important? Yes! Do we worship her? No. Do we Honor her? Yes. Here is another thought. It applies directly to the debate but removes the femenist movement from the discussion. Do we have a Heavenly Grandfather, Great Grandfather? If we do, why don't we mention them? Why don't we worship them? Joseph Smith, 16 June 1844 (Sunday Morning). Grove East of Temple. Thomas Bullock Report I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the God of heaven. “In order to do that,” said he, “suppose we have two facts: that supposes another fact may exist-two men on the earth, one wiser than the other, would logically show that another who is wiser than the wisest may exist. Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.” If Abraham reasoned thus-If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. Joseph Smith mentioned them. We don't worship our Heavenly Grandparents because we did not make a covenant with them in the pre-existence.

Everyone has their own trial of faith. You have been confused before, as have many. Thanks for sharing your history. Your past helps us to understand your perspective and reluctance to trust. This is understandable. To answer your question above, I would say that God is showing you the truth now. You are on its doorstep but are hesitant to take a step inside because of prior experience. The Chruch of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is True. The Book of Mormon is the Word of God. Joseph Smith was the first prophet of the Lord in Modern Times. Thomas S. Monson is the current mouthpiece of the Lord. Open your heart. Read the Book of Mormon. Seek out the words of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Strip yourself of jealousy, fear, and humble yourself before the Lord. If you do, you will gain your reward. Christ does not want you to be his fool. He desires you to be his son. Claim your birthright.

Hymn 292 Oh my father - "In the heav'ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason, truth eternal Tells me I've a mother there. Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him, male and female created he them. Elohim - Elohim (אֱלוֹהִים , אלהים, sometimes transliterated as Aleim[1]) is a Hebrew word which expresses concepts of divinity. It is apparently related to the Hebrew word ēl, though morphologically it consists of the Hebrew word Eloah (אלוה) with a plural suffix.

Don't even think about it. Its crack. I cant wait for Diablo III though...

Now were talkin. So you are trying to determine if the vasectomy was successful? And you and your wife are no longer together. Are you getting this test out of curosity, or are you planning to have intercourse with a woman still able to produce offspring? If you are planning on having a relationship. I would share this delema with her, she may be able to help out... But this of course would be a greater sin than solo procurement of the sample out of wedlock. If you are not planning on having intercourse till after marriage, then there is no hurry to have the test done. If the procedure didn't take they will have to re-do it anyway.

Im confused. Maybe because Im a doc. Why does your doctor need this sample? And if the doc needs it for a fertility test, why is your wife not able to assist in the procurment of the sample? I dont see why you couldnt produce the sample at home or a local motel then deposit it at the Docs office.

Ok then brother. Are you trying to say that Hell is Outer Darkness (the place where the Sons of Perdition will be condemed to reside)? If so, you are getting into an area of complete speculation. In the Book of Mormon the only location where the term Outer Darkness is used is in Alma 40:12-14 and in those verses, the term is obviously refering to Spirit Prison not the ultimate incarceration for those Sons of Perdition. Outer Darkness as is referred to in D&C 76:31-48 is a totally different place than Spirit Prison. There are strict requirements that one has to fulfil prior to becoming a Son of Perdition: 1) That person must have a pure and full knowledge of God and the Plan of Salvation. He must have recieved the second comforter. This is huge stuff. Like apostle type knowledge. Like Cain having a personal encounter with God himself, Moses 5:21-26. Joseph Smith, Council Meeting of Presidency and Twelve Apostles on June 27, 1839 (Commerce, Ill.) as recorded in Willard Richards Pocket Companion The other comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest & perhaps understood by few of this generation, After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins & is Baptized for the remission of his sins & received the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering & thirsting after Righteousness. & living by every word of God & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted. &c When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John in the XIV ch from the 12th to the 27 verses Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses. (16.vs) & I will pray the father & he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (17) Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you & shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you (21) He that hath my commandments & keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. & he that loveth me shall be loved of my father & I will love him & will manifest myself to him (23) If a man Love me he will keep my words. & my Father will love him. & we will come unto him, & make our abode with him. 2) Essentially after this man has then recieved his calling and election. He then has to reject the Lord and the Plan of Salvation. He has to crucify the Lord anew. I only know of two sons of perdition, Judas Iscariot and Cain. I can think of none others. And even Judas Iscariot's betrayal and final destination is under debate. Joseph F. Smith Gospel Doctrine p 433-435 If Judas really had known God's power, and had partaken thereof, and did actually "deny the truth" and "defy" that power, "having denied the Holy Spirit after he had received it," and also "denied the Only Begotten," after God had "revealed him" unto him, then there can be no doubt that he "will die the second death. That Judas did partake of all this knowledge—that these great truths had been revealed to him—that he had received the Holy Spirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards become under the influence of the Spirit..... But not knowing that Judas did commit the unpardonable sin; nor that he was a "son of perdition without hope" who will die the second death, nor what knowledge he possessed by which he was able to commit so great a sin, I prefer, until I know better, to take the merciful view that he may be numbered among those for whom the blessed Master prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Finally as I have already stated we do not know what occurs there. So trying to define it is worthless. D&C 76:45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows. Yet men have tried. Take for Example Brigham Young's supposition of their destiny. Journal of Discourses 1:275-276 Jesus says, he will DESTROY death and him that hath the power of it. What can you make of this but decomposition, the returning of the organized particles to their native element, after suffering the wrath of God until the time appointed. That appears a mystery, but the principle has been in existence from all eternity, only it is something you have not known or thought of. When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball’s old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again. All I have to say about it is what Jesus says—I will destroy Death, and him that hath the power of it, which is the devil. And if he ever makes “a full end of the wicked,” what else can he do than entirely disorganize them, and reduce them to their native element? Here are some of the mysteries of the kingdom. In my mind this could be accomplished by sending a spirit or resurrected being into a black hole. This would cause the matter that was once a soul to become torn apart into its most basic parts. Hence a complete dissolution. Do I think that a black hole is Outer Darkness? I don't know. But its a bad place.

You gonna share?

LOL Think im gonna keep an eye on you.

When I made my statement I made a generalized statement knowing that both LDS and non-LDS would be reading my words. I wanted to make a distinction between the non-LDS beliefs of Hell and what we (LDS members) currently know and understand as Spirit Prison. If you want to say that we believe in Hell which we don't. You would actually be commenting about Spirit Prison. And the many quotes that you listed above are very nice but the best information we have about Spirt Prison is in D&C 138. It is by far - the most clear and precise explanation of Spirit Prison that we currently have. From D&C 138:30-33 we know that missionaries are currently carrying the light of the gospel to the souls that are in Spirit Prison. This proves that there is hope for those that are in Spirit Prison. That they can still repent of their sins and recieve the gospel. If you are going to compare our Spirit Prison to anything, it is much more applicable to what other religions believe to be Purgatory. I stand by my statement. We do not believe in a Hell. If you want to use the term Hell to describe a temporary feeling of mental anguish thats fine. But when you throw around the term Hell especially in a mixed group there is going to be lots of confusion.

Vincenzo Di Francesca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Check out this guys story. He appreciated the LDS faith from a distance for 40 years before he took the plunge. Its not a race. Its only important that you cross the finish line alive.

What's really kool about this Sixth Sense analogy is that I think it applies to LDS members also. When I read and understood the King Follett Discourse, I also had an awakening experience that changed how I interpreted many of my previous LDS beliefs. Was wondering if this happened to anyone else?

You must have seen this movie if you are gonna make a comment btw. This movie is directed by M. Night Shyamalan and stars Bruce Willis and Haley Joel Osment. Bruce Willis' character has some experiences in the first 90% of the movie that we experience with him. During the last 10% of the movie we have a different perspective of the experiences that are interpreted by Haley Joel Osment's point of view, and it totally makes Bruce Willis' character re-define the meaning behind his previous experiences. It is a profound awakening. I liken this experience to being LDS in a way. When non-LDS christians read the scriptures they have an interpretation based upon their core beliefs. LDS members on the other hand have the Book of Mormon, D&C, and modern day revelation that gives us a distinct advantage in understanding the bible and basic truth about God and the plan of salvation. I have seen quite a few exercises in debate in these forums trying to explain the differences between LDS doctrine and mainstream christian doctrine and seems to be an effort in futility. Going back to The Sixth Sense you may recollect that Osment's character never had an argument with Willis' character telling him that his pre-enlightenment views were incorrect. He just listened and set a good example. And he let Willis come to the realization of the truth in his own due time. I suggest that we try to be more like Osment's character and stop the futile debates. We know the truth. We should continue to present the truth and our core beliefs clearly and in an honorable fashion with scripture and testimony. Maybe we should make a non-LDS Gospel Discussion forum?

Im gonna have to disagree with this statement, especially that it is LDS to the core. First off "saved" is not an LDS term. We use the term in speaking with non-LDS christians so that we can have an area of common ground but there is no such thing as being saved in LDS doctrine. We believe in redemption from the fall of Adam, which all receive freely because of the Atonement. The term exaltation on the other hand refers to a person fulfilling all requirements requisite for entrance into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. Second off we don't even believe in a place called Hell. Hell as defined by non-LDS christians is a place of eternal torment where there is fire and devils, etc. It does not exist according to our doctrine. Sure we believe in Spirit Prison (which is temporary and there is no physical punishment because no one there will have a body). We also believe in an outer darkness but NO ONE knows what occurs in outer darkness (D&C 76: 43-46), and those people that eventually go there will be a very miniscule amount. So I'm gonna take Outer Darkness completely out of the discussion. Thus LDS members don't believe that anyone can go to Hell. The worst place that LDS students believe that people can go is actually the Telestial Kingdom which is a Degree of Glory. And interestingly, I think that most other Christian religions associate "Heaven" with what we believe is the Telestial Kingdom.

I dont have a problem if this member requires $40 for each healing if he does it to help the member to have faith, and then donates the $40 to the Church. But pocketing it would be a no-no in my opinion.

I happen to be a healer. But I heal with Steal. True Story. Ever heard of the placebo effect? It is powerful. There was an excellent study done to test the placebo vs. knee scopes for mild arthritis. It was a single blind study where the patients were treated with a spinal anesthesia and then they either had a real knee scope with 1) a debridement or 2) a sham operation (the docs made a real incision and made a fuss about squirting some water and pulling the leg around but no scope or debridement was performed). Results - no difference. Both groups of patients reported a significant increase in knee funciton and decrease in pain. Many of the patients who were in the sham group even stated that they would recommend the operation to their family members. Why did it work? Because the patients believed that it would help them to feel better. And it did. John 9: 6-7 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. Do you think that Christ applied clay to the blind man's eyes because the clay had special medicinal properties, or do you think that perhaps Christ knew that the blind man did not have enough faith to be healed and needed this outward display of action to boost his faith?

Before we can have a reasonable discussion your gonna need to define some more terms. 1) Second Death 2) God (with respect to "You are worthy to live with God") God as we know it can refer to 3 personages. Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost. Those who attain the Celestial kingdom can interact with all 3 Gods. Those who attain the Terrestrial kingdom can interact with Jehovah and the Holy Ghost. Those who attain the Telestial kingdom can interact only with the Holy Ghost. Those sons of perdition can not interact with any of the Gods. D&C 76

Thats the whole point. Saved is a wastebasket term.

Im sneaky like that. Im just trying to make a point that the concepts that we use to define our terms lead to most of the confusion that we have in debates.