mikbone

I'm gonna have to agree. When it comes to the time of judgement. I believe that there will be no confusion bewteen either judge or the person being judged as to what type of reward is deserved. I have imagined that we will be completely aware of the rules and regulations concerning the judgement. Then that we would review our life (circumstances, actions, and thoughts) in the presence of our Judge. And we would be aware that the Judge understands our thoughts and feelings. If this is the scenario, it will be obvious as to which reward we deserve. We will not have to be told. Just thinking about this inspires me to be a better person.

God is the only one who can answer that question. No one here in this forum is qualified to judge you. The most basic requirements as I see them are as follows: Outer Darkness - You must KNOW the Savior (a knowledge about him well beyond faith alone) and then reject him. There are very few of these people... Telestial - You have to willfully break the commandments and have no remorse for doing so, basically you must be wicked. Terrestrial - You must strive to follow the 10 commandments because you know and feel that it is the right thing to do. Celestial bottom - You must follow the commandments and the other teachings of Jesus Christ and be baptized. Celestial middle - You must be baptized and be ordained with the Melchizedek priesthood (if your male) and strive to magnify your priesthood. Celestial top - You have to enter into the New and Everlasting Covenant and strive to comply with all the requirements of that covenant. Also important to realize is that no one will be consigned to a kingdom till after the final judgement that is after the millennium. And that people can continue to progress even after Death (albeit repentance is much more difficult in the next life compared to this one). After this life there will be a preliminary judgement that will place people into one of two locations, Spirit Prison or Paradise. I'm not exactly sure what is the delineation between the two, but I think that if you qualify for the Terrestrial Kingdom or above that you go to Paradise. If you only qualify for the Telestial Kingdom you are consigned to go to Spirit Prison. And even if person ends up in Spirit Prison, he or she can make amends and accept the gospel and moved from Spirit Prison into Paradise. So to answer your question, I would ask. Are you wicked?

I think that there is a bit more in the title Alpha and Omega than just the beginning and end. And thanks Justice for pointing out that it is another way of expressing the concept of Eternity. I think that there is a deeper meaning in the title specifically with reference to First and Last not Beginning and End. Although Alpha and Omega do obviously refer to a beginning and end. For example: Alpha - Could be another way of refering to his Firstborn status Omega - 1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Omega could be refering to Christ as the Last Adam. Isiah 44:6 Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. I have also wondered if there is a correlation between Alpha and Omega and verses like Matt. 19: 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. One of the Hebrew literary tools that exist is "Notaricon." It is sometimes used to form, or understand words, the letters in a word work as an acronym. The word in Hebrew for truth is אמת (Reading from right to left) which is known as “emet .” “Emet“ is written with three letters, the first א (Aleph), and middle מ (Mem) , and last ת (Tav) in the Hebrew alphabetical order. The Rabbinical tradition is that these letters refer to the concept of past, present, and future. In other words, the word “truth” is made up of the letters placed at the beginning of the Hebrew alphabet, the middle of the alphabet, and the end of the alphabet. The placement of the letters in the alphabet represents the letters' meanings of past, present and future, which aligns nicely with Doctrine and Covenants 93:24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come. Copied from MormonMysticism.com: Notaricon - Emet - Truth

Anyone got some insight as to what this title actually denotes? Alpha seems pretty straight forward, its the Omega that eludes me. Matt. 19: 30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first. First / Last also seems to have a deeper meaning that I'm not getting.

I've read freakonomics. The above statement has multiple inconsistencies thus using it as a platform for your follow-up statements does not give them support. 1) Just because children are not wanted does not mean that they are born into abuse 2) And vice versa, just because a child is wanted does not mean that they will have an abuse free childhood/life. According to your statement though we should be justified in sterilizing all abusive personalities...

Time is an interesting subject. From the special theory of relativity we know that time is dependent upon speed. This is a fact. As you approach the speed of light time slows, and at the speed of light time stops. If we were to move slower time would pass faster for us. The speed that humans move in space determines how we feel time. I have thought that a spirit is composed of a type of organized light and if so a spirit does not experience time as we do because a spirit moves at the speed of light thus time as we reckon it does not exist for them. Gods body is celestial and exalted. We know that blood does not run thru his veins. Some have assumed that a kind of purified light runs his body and thus he also is subject to the laws of physics and does not experience time like we do. How does he experience time? I have no idea. Is he bound by a time scale that we don't comprehend? Probably.

I agree. If he did previously go through a mortal probation and gained his exaltation prior to our pre-existence. It sets him apart. He is something special. Firstborn is a good title.

If we are indeed going to follow in the path that our fathers tread. Then it might be better to understand our futures by looking at the past. Let us imagine... A time long ago when Elohim was passing thru his estate of a savior on the planet Kolob. Jehovah was a mortal man like you and I on Kolob. He sinned, repented, partook of Elohim's atonement, and all of the saving ordinances. He died and was resurrected into the Celestial Kingdom and became a member of the Church of the Firstborn. What would this have accomplished 1) He is married, and had no reason to have a romantic relationship while on our Earth. 2) He has been tempered against sin. 3) He now knows how to resurrect himself. So, he then continues to learn everything (LOTS & LOTS of schooling), and finally when he and his wife are ready, they ask Elohim to start creating Spirit Children for them so that they can continue to progress. If this happened this way then it explains... 4) Why Jehovah was the firstborn. Its not his position of birth. Although he was there before the first of Elohim's spirit children (destined to be in our pre-existence) was created. Jehovah is the firstborn because he is the firstborn. 5) Why Jehovah was more intelligent than all of us combined during our pre-existence 6) Why in our pre-existence, He was the one that was like unto God. 7) Why Jehovah was God. 8) Why Jehovah was aware of Father's Plan of Salvation and why He volunteered to fill the position of savior. 9) Why Jehovah was able to create the Earth Physically. And by the way, this would also allow Jehovah and his Wife to be the biologic parents of Adam and Eve's physical bodies. And If Jehovah was the Father of Adam and Eve's physical bodies... Then it stands to reason that Elohim was the Biologic father of Jehovah's physical body. Thus Jehovah is the only begotten of the Father in the Flesh.

You would have to enter into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom and become resurrected first. Then you have to go to school and learn LOTS. When you have reached a level of competence then you get the opportunity to embark on the Holy Ghost trial. Then you Learn again. Only when you reach the next level of competence do you then get to try the Savior trial. There are obvious "holes" to this scenario, namely a body. But this can be circumvented.

Sure. We were all in the presence of the Father. We all assisted in the creation of the Physical Earth. Adam is the best and brightest among our family and he represents us.

Yeah, and I've studied this atonement paradox question at length since I ran into the brick wall back in 1988 in a southern Chilean town. The Holy Ghost is a God. He is obviously ahead of us in the path of progression. Adam was not a God. He passed through a mortal probation just like us. He had to partake of the ordinances and experienced sin and the benefit of the atonement.

Is that an assumption, or do you have a reference to support that statement? Intelligences are not created. (I'd submit the reference, but I'm stuck in a confrence atm, texting on my iPhone).

Ok, if your gonna twist my arm. Here is the real paradox in my opinion. 1) There is a path that has been tread by our fathers. 2) We are traveling on a path. 3) Are these paths the same? Ill try to illustrate the dilemma. First look as ourselves. I'll use lowercase letters to represent our estate. a) intelligence b) spirit birth, pre-existent state c) mortal life experiencing sin, and being able to take advantage of a saviors atonement Now look at the Gods estates, lets use capital letters for them. A) Holy Spirit - no corporeal body but still a God. Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has. August 27, 1843 Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items" B ) Mortal estate as a Savior (eschewing sin and performing an atonement)C) Exalted immortal Celestial God capable of producing spirit children. Most people think the progression goes like this. a -> b-> c -> C I submit that the exaltation of man more likely works like this. a -> b -> c -> A -> B -> C Comments?

I must be using the wrong lure. I thought my #4 post in this thread was a big juicy worm. Maybe I should be using a fly rod...

Didn't Jerry already argue that the Adamic language was a dense language. Such that it would take much more space to write it in Reformed Egyptian? Do you think that Joseph Smith peaked into the sealed potion of the plates? If he didn't, he didn't see the adamic language.

I feel a nibble

It would be left up to the Doctors that are willing to do the procedures. I fix bones in a Catholic Hospital. Catholics hospitals refuse to perform abortions. But all the time you can look on the operating room board and see D&C listed. D&C in the hospital is short for Dilation and Curettage not Doctrine and Covenants. What's a Dilation and Curettage? Well if the mother had a miscarriage and the fetus has not been ex-pulsed then it removes the non-vialble tissue. If the fetus is still alive, its an abortion.

I've had my baited hook in the water for some time now. I'm still waiting for that first nibble. Very nice evaision Hemi.

So, are we going to be able to follow the path that has been traveled by our Fathers? Or, are we on a seperate path?

I think everyone agrees with you tomk. Jehovah's atonement has jurisdiction over all the worlds that He (Jehovah) created physically. The area of debate is, are there worlds out there that were that were physically created by someone other than Jehovah? As far as we can see in all directions there is no end of space or matter. And we can look pretty dang far. And this does not take into effect the possibilities that there are multiple universes. There could be an infinite number of universes. Heck each atom itself could be a universe. Ever think about that?

LOL, nice mental exercise. 1) The chance of us coming to a scientific level where we could travel to another solar systems, prior to the second coming is in my opinion zero. 2) Jehovah is your Savior. Even if you were to pass through a worm hole and travel to the other side of the known universe and land in a habitable planet, you have no connection with those people. You agreed in our pre-existence that Jehovah would be your Savior. 3) A point of interest is that astronomers have evidence that there are Galaxies that are currently in collision. If a single God was steward of each Galaxy, would this cause havoc? Interestingly, these scientist also believe that although these Galaxies are passing through the same space, the likely hood that any stars would actually collide is almost zero, because they are mostly empty space. Go figure.

Elohim Created/creates Spiritually (he probably created physically some time in the past) Jehovah Created Physically (so far) Elohim is the Architech, and Jehovah is the Carpenter. Agreed? Now to dive into conjecture... We don't know how much Jehovah created physically. Could have been... All physical matter that is The entire known Universe Our Local Cluster of galaxies The Milky Way Galaxy An arm of the Milky Way Galaxy A local cluster of stars The Sun and its sattelites Elohim on the other hand created spiritually. Or he created the template from which Jehovah created physically. If an architech creates a plan, any number of carpenters can use that plan and created the same structure in a different location if they follow the plans correctly. I suspect that Elohim has other children like Jehovah that were begotten, and that they are now fulfilling a role that is similar to that which Jehovah is currently undertaking. If so, we never have had contact with them, and from our point of view. Jehovah is the only begotten son of the Father. If the above assumption is correct, and I'm not stating that it is correct. Then Jehovah's atonement does not cover all of Elohim's creations. It only covers all of Jehovah's physical creations. This would also explain why when Elohim does appear, that he basically makes the same statement. "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him." Elohim is a VERY busy man.

That a boy! I'll come at it from a different point of view. HONOR What is Honor? Why does Elohim have it in spades? Does Jesus Christ have honor? Where did he get his honor? Lets return to the war in heaven. One of the most basic causes of the rift was the issue as to who was going to recieve the honor of saving the spirit children of Elohim. D&C 29: 36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; Moses 4: 1 And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan, whom thou hast commanded in the name of mine Only Begotten, is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me, saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. Satan's opinion on the topic is obvious. He knew that redeeming mankind would generate honor. He wanted the opportunity to become like God and partake of his honor without having to go through an atonement. Jehovah on the other hand had full understanding. Moses 4:2 But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever. Jehovah did what he did not for the honor but because he loved both us and his Father. The honor & glory that is naturally a by-product of an atonement he was willing to give to our Father without remorse. Can we make a list of things that were achieved by performing an atonement? Ill start. By products of the atonement: 1) The ability to grant a remission of sin and overcome the effects of the fall of Adam (too many scriptures to list) 2) The light of truth (D&C 88:6) 3) Honor & Glory

If his baptism was sealed by the holy spirit of promise, He's in paradise. D&C 132:7

More likely an infinite number of atonements. I concur.