mikbone

I've given the question some more thought and wanted to give a better concrete answer than my previous response. What made Jesus uniquely qualified to do what he did? 1) Jehovah understood the Fathers plan of salvation better than any of the other spirit children. This is best understood by studying the pre-existence. The Bible deals with the pre-existence in only a cursory manner. Luckily we saints have been blessed with further knowledge and have an excellent history of the pre-existence. I recommend studying The Pearl of Great Price in detail (especially Abr 3 & Moses 1,4,6), Alma 43-44 is and excellent symbolic description of the war in heaven (I just learned this btw, thanks to Justice who also made a post in this thread), and of course the Temple ceremony. 2) Christ was able to live a perfect example and a sin-free life. He made NO mistakes. He had a character, will, and knowledge that allowed him to make perfect decisions and execute those decisions. Have you ever tried to have a "perfect day" give it a shot. It's difficult. He was able to part the veil at an early age and had a clear vision of our pre-earth life and eternal perspective that other mortals don't seem able to understand. He was a spiritual giant. 3) He was able to complete the Atonement. You can study the atonement all day long. It is the central theme of Christianity. Its all over the scriptures. But some of the best comments that I have experienced are within latter-day confrence talks. Take for example Elder Jeffery R. Holland's talk from today's confrence. There seem to be at least 2-3 atonement talks during each confrence. They are powerful. Good testimony meetings are also helpful. But the bottom line to understanding the atonement is - LOVE. He loves us and wants us to be able to over-come the effects of sin and return to live and progress with him and the Father. In the end, that is why he chose to partake of the bitter cup. 4) He had power over death. He allowed himself to die. And He was able to resurrect himself.

There are no coincidences.

That is the best question ever. And it is a joy to study, ponder, and pray about. I wrote a book about it, but in the end it can all be summed up in one word. Love.

My favorite part so far... Elder Anderson quoting Elder Packer - paraphrasing "I am a nobody, then he turned and looked at me, and said, And Brother Anderson you are a nobody. And don't you ever forget it. And if you do, you will be reminded in an instant. And it won't be pleasant." This gives me comfort. :) Brother Holland on the Atonement. I could listen to talks on the atonement all day long.

Woot!

Intelligence -> Spirit -> Mortal body -> Immortal body - This we know Defining Intelligence is difficult to do though. There has just been so little revealed about them. The only scripture that seems to allude to them is Abraham 3:18-26. But I think that the term intelligence used in this scripture actually is refering to the the level of righteousness of the spirit not the actual intelligence that we have come to think of as the pool of material that God uses to organize spirits. I would never use the word darkness to describe an intelligence. Although obviously there are different levels of brilliance. The Light of Christ is a whole different thing though.

So can we agree that the Holy ghost at least delivered Elohim's haploid DNA to Mary's womb? If so the symbolism still works. Jehovah's tabernacle in the pre-existence is a very interesting point. Don't know that I want to go there though...

Has your friend ever given his wife a reason to think that she will never live up to his expectations. Pornography, flirting with other women, talking about other women, ignoring her to spend more time with his friends or at work? If I was Lucifer and I wanted to destroy families. This is the way that I would do it. It is subtle, but painful, and infects everyone in the whole family

This is a great thread. Lots of good advice and I've never seen so many thanks. From the standpoint of a doc I would have to ask a few more questions to know where things really stand. How much weight has she gained. It matters. Does she have any illnesses. Hypothyroidism and lots of other diseases can cause massive weight gain. Is she depressed? Is she taking any medications or supplements? Does she want to lose weight? Would she be willing to have bariatric surgery (like a stomach stapling procedure). Has she just started gaining weight, or is she letting other things slip like personal hygene, activity level, sleeping habits, etc... When was the last time she had a physical exam by a physician? Everyone knows that we should treat our bodies as temples. Yet weight gain is a huge problem in our society due to our decreased activity level and access to caloric dense processed food. Brigham Young was a pretty heafty man. Thomas S. Monson would be categorized as obese if you calculated his body mass index. Heck I wished I weighed 40 pounds less. Can you imagine a fat Adam and Eve or Jesus Christ? I can't. Usually, non-pathologic weight gain is secondary to change of environment, carelessness, or loss of self esteme. If the husband has contributed to her loss of self esteme then he can do a lot to fix it by changing himself. My advice is to find out the reason why she is gaining weight first. Until you figure out the cause all your doing is wasting your time.

I reject the idea that there is a Royal Line of perfect anointed souls that can progress through the eternities like Jehovah and Elohim. If this was so, all the other non-perfect spirit children of Elohim would be illegitimate heirs and not be able to inherit his fullness. Unless youve figured that one out?

1) Do you think that the Holy Ghost has a Spirit Body? He is a spirit. I don't like the term Spirit Body because it is misleading. The Holy Ghost does not have a tangeable body. He is a personage of spirit. I could say that Elohim has a Spirit Body and in a sense be correct. Elohim has a resurrected celestial body of Flesh and Bone, but his (Elohim's) body does not have blood flowing through his veins. I imagine that Elohim's body is quickened by spirit or a kind of light that flows thru his circulatory system. So no, I do not believe that he, the Holy Ghost, has a Spirit Body. I believe that the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. 2) Is the Holy Ghost a Begotten Child of our Heavenly Father? Im unsure of the question. In what sense do you mean Begotten? For example. I believe that my Spirit was begotten by Elohim. My mortal physical tabernacle was begotten by my mortal parents. My soul on Earth has been spiritually begotten or reborn by Jesus Christ through the ordinance of his atonement and my earthly baptims. D&C 76:24, 93:22, Mosiah 5:7. If I had to make a guess I would say probably. But I don't know. Current revelations that we have concerning the specifics of his origin are limited.

I haven't heard any. I like a good story though.

If you like symbolism you'll probably like this post. Or... Hate it. Bible Dictionary: Dove, Sign of The idea that the Holy Ghost can appear as a dove is a misconception. Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: D&C 93:15 And I, John, bear record, and lo, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove, and sat upon him, and there came a voice out of heaven saying: This is my beloved Son. If you look at the Facsimile from the Book of Abraham No. 2, Figure 7 you can see what the Sign of the Dove actually is... Link to Facsimile No. 2 You have to turn the facsimile upside down to see it properly but you see a seated man with his left arm at his side with the forearm extended, and with his right arm to the square. This is the sign of the dove. When the Holy Ghost descended out of the heaven and witnessed the baptism of Jesus Christ, he was holding his personage of spirit in this position. He was not a dove. Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 276 "The sign of the dove was instituted before the creation of the world, a witness for the Holy Ghost, and the devil cannot come in the sign of a a dove. The Holy Ghost is a personage, and is in the form of a personage. It does not confine itself to the form of the dove, but in sign of the dove. The Holy Ghost cannot be transformed into a dove; but the sign of a dove was given to John to signify the truth of the deed, as the dove is an emblem or token of truth and innocence." And NOT incidentally, the officiator of a true baptism holds his body in this position. He also has his hand cupped so he can receive the right wrist of the person being baptized. I believe that the cupping position of the left hand is not coincidental. Now to make a leap of faith and bring it all together... Baptism symbolizes rebirth and the birth of Christ. We know that Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost. Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and concieve by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. Medical definition of conception - The onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst into the endometrium. Or in layman's terms - when the embryo attaches to the mother's uterus wall and begins to receive sustenance from the mother. I believe that the highest symbolism of the Sign of the Dove is the Holy Ghost holding the embryo of Jesus Christ in his cupped left hand prior to the delivery of the holy seed into the Virgin Mary's Uterus.

Are you saying Jesus was a Just Man Made Perfect at this point? That he was a disembodied spirit yet and still waiting for the reunion of body and spirit? And its Mikbone not Milkbone - a concatenation of my last name and line of work not a dog buscuit :)

Thanks for all the comments. Im getting a better idea, I just enjoy the details. Always have. Think I'm gonna have to spend some time in the temple to figure this one out. I see 2 reasons why Jesus would not allow Mary to touch him. 1) to protect her from injuring herself (like Abanidi or Nephi, or steading the Ark of the covenant), or 2) protect himself from her defiling touch. It seems like if Jesus wanted to, he could have exited the tomb without having to have the tomb cover stone moved. But apparently he needed the angels to move the stone for him. Its also interesting that he left his mortal clothes in the tomb. I assume that the 2 angles were Michael (the angel that strengthened him in the garden), and Gabriel (the angel that originally declared his birth). I think that at this time he was a resurrected immortal man without blood in his body. But obviously he did have the prints in his hands and wrists. I think that the baptism clearly represents the birth of Christ. And that the resurrection represents baptism of fire or gift of the Holy Ghost. I think that Jesus didn't allow Mary to touch him because he had to present himself to the father in a clean state and complete the patriarchal chain. I think there is still more there that is there though... --- Edit --- Think I missed something pretty important. If you look at the footnote for touch - JST "Hold me not" This kinda makes it look like Mary was embracing him, and he is saying. I gotta go... Although she may have been approaching him for an embrace and he forestalled her.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Any insight as to why Jesus did not allow Mary to touch him? I can't figure out the significance.

When the final judgement is upon us. I believe that we will judge ourselves with God as a witness. We will completely understand the role of both justice and mercy and there will be no dobut as to which kingdom we deserve. I also believe that there is a form of repentance in the next life prior to the final judgement, its just alot more complicated than if we do it while on Earth.

Im sporting a Jeep Wrangler Unlimited Rubicon. And I gotta say is was worth the struggle.

Humans are born with inteligence and the abiltiy to reason. Other animals cannot. There are reasons for this other than the size of our cerebrum... I have lots of kids, they have different personalities. They were born with these personalities. I did not teach them. They all have very similar DNA but there is something that makes them vastly different that modern science CANNOT explain. Some people have a predisposition to excell at music, or art, or science. An excellent explanation would be that these were things that we gained during out pre-mortal life and that have stayed with us. When we die we are sent to the spirit world. Some people go to spirit prison and some go to paradise. From the D&C 138 we know that those in spirit prison must be taught by those in paradise about the gospel. In effect a mission was set up by the Savior during the 3 days that his body lie in the tomb in Jerusalem. If after death we all are given our pre-mortal memories why did this mission have to be set up? Why do they have to be taught the gospel? Why must every knee bow and every tongue confess - Isaiah 45:23? If we all get our pre-mortal memories back it will be obvious no? I feel strongly that the transition from this life to the next is not going to gaurantee you an endowment of gifts. We are going to continue to have to grow and progress. I do think that we will be able to eventually unlock our previous memories, but that there are requirements that we must fulfill before we can obtain these blessings. When I was sealed in the temple, the worker that sealed my wife and I stated that when we pass into the spirit world we will be able to feel each others presence due to the sealing power (and thus will be able to easily reuinite). And that we will have the same ability with our children. This necessairly means that those that are not sealed will not have this ability and will have to search for their loved ones. I have never seen this explained by a prophet but it sounds like truth to me. The final fronteir will be an excellent journey but I dont think that it is going to be a Disney Cruise Ship. We still have work to do...

Everyone has the light of Christ. People know when they do something wrong. I think at the final judgement we will be able to have a perfect recollection of all our actions, thoughts, and motivations, and our judge will also be privy to those same actions, thoughts, and motivations. Our mortal lives will be an open book to read and there will be no deception. We will not be judged on our pre-mortal lives. All Im saying is that, passing thru the veil is an ordinance. And with that ordinance comes the foreknowledge of the pre-existence. When you die you go to heaven, but that dosent mean that you necessairly get to pass thru the veil. I think that many people think that when this life passes that there will be some huge enlightment and all our prior gifts and knowledge will come rushing back. Line upon line, precept upon percept. "Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come." D&C 130:18-19

You would be guilty for your sins that you comitted during this life. Every single one that you had not fully repented of.

I think that recollections of our memories and guilt apply to our mortal actions. I dont think any of us did anyting that would lead to guilt during the pre-existence (were here so we passed the pre-mortal test), congradulations everyone!

Dunno about Julie/Todd promises. But Im pretty darn positive that at least some of my children and I had relationships in the pre-existence. Based both on patriarchal blessing and intuition. Of course having 8 kids increases these possibilities. :)

Where to start??? I think that is real important that a person have integrity in their life. Have you ever had a temple interview? If you have, were you able to answer the questions such as: 1 Do you have faith in and a testimony of God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost? 2 Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Christ and of His role as Savior and Redeemer? 3 Do you have a testimony of the restoration of the gospel in these the latter days? 4 Do you sustain the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the Prophet, Seer, and Revelator and as the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys? Do you sustain members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators? Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local authorities of the Church? If you can answer those questions with a wholehearted yes you are in the right place. If not, its probably time to do some soul searching. People have doubts, I know that I have had lots of questions. But I have a powerful testimony of the truth of the church, doctrine, and literature. Do we have to believe that Joseph Smith was perfect? No. Did Moses ever make a mistake while leading the Israelites? How about King David? Our records of the old prophets are so limited compared to the history of the latter day prophets. I sure have noticed the care that modern day prophets have taken to limit the amount of deep doctrine that they discuss in public forums just so they will not be misunderstood. And it makes sense. What is most important is the first principles and ordinances of the gospel. I think the specifics of your listed doubts are trivial. What teachings of Joseph Smith about God the Father do you reject? Noah's Ark and the Flood: Did the entire Earth have to be covered in water submerging Mt. Everest? John Widtsoe wrote that the flood was indeed great but that the mountain tops only had to have water raining on them hard enough so that there was a continuos sheet of water covering them. If you read closely you will notice that the water that covered the Earth came from the atmosphere as well as deep within the Earth. The earth itself was baptized, and incidentally During the 2nd coming it will receive its baptism of fire. So where was the Garden of Eden? Is this important for your salvation? I'll stand by Brother Smith btw. Polygamy was practiced by the ancient prophets, was it wrong then? Finally, the Book of Mormon is the most correct book of scripture that we have. Of this I have no doubt. You just might not be interpreting it correctly. --------------- This topic is probably in the wrong forum btw. Its not really doctrine. I can't really tell if your asking for advice though either...

I think they will have no recollection. They obviously will have hearsay. Possibly they will be able to view videos of important events that occured during the pre-existence. But for example they will not remember that they promised a special person that they would find them in mortality and have a family with them, and progress thru eternity with them... That would just be cruel.