mikbone

Don't even think about it. Its crack. I cant wait for Diablo III though...

Now were talkin. So you are trying to determine if the vasectomy was successful? And you and your wife are no longer together. Are you getting this test out of curosity, or are you planning to have intercourse with a woman still able to produce offspring? If you are planning on having a relationship. I would share this delema with her, she may be able to help out... But this of course would be a greater sin than solo procurement of the sample out of wedlock. If you are not planning on having intercourse till after marriage, then there is no hurry to have the test done. If the procedure didn't take they will have to re-do it anyway.

Im confused. Maybe because Im a doc. Why does your doctor need this sample? And if the doc needs it for a fertility test, why is your wife not able to assist in the procurment of the sample? I dont see why you couldnt produce the sample at home or a local motel then deposit it at the Docs office.

Ok then brother. Are you trying to say that Hell is Outer Darkness (the place where the Sons of Perdition will be condemed to reside)? If so, you are getting into an area of complete speculation. In the Book of Mormon the only location where the term Outer Darkness is used is in Alma 40:12-14 and in those verses, the term is obviously refering to Spirit Prison not the ultimate incarceration for those Sons of Perdition. Outer Darkness as is referred to in D&C 76:31-48 is a totally different place than Spirit Prison. There are strict requirements that one has to fulfil prior to becoming a Son of Perdition: 1) That person must have a pure and full knowledge of God and the Plan of Salvation. He must have recieved the second comforter. This is huge stuff. Like apostle type knowledge. Like Cain having a personal encounter with God himself, Moses 5:21-26. Joseph Smith, Council Meeting of Presidency and Twelve Apostles on June 27, 1839 (Commerce, Ill.) as recorded in Willard Richards Pocket Companion The other comforter spoken of is a subject of great interest & perhaps understood by few of this generation, After a person hath faith in Christ, repents of his sins & is Baptized for the remission of his sins & received the Holy Ghost (by the laying on of hands) which is the first Comforter then let him continue to humble himself before God, hungering & thirsting after Righteousness. & living by every word of God & the Lord will soon say unto him Son thou shalt be exalted. &c When the Lord has thoroughly proved him & finds that the man is determined to serve him at all hazard. then the man will find his calling & Election made sure then it will be his privilege to receive the other Comforter which the Lord hath promised the saints as is recorded in the testimony of St John in the XIV ch from the 12th to the 27 verses Note the 16, 17, 18, 21, 23 verses. (16.vs) & I will pray the father & he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever; (17) Even the Spirit of Truth; whom the world cannot receive because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him; but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you & shall be in you. (18) I will not leave you comfortless. I will come to you (21) He that hath my commandments & keepeth them, he it is that loveth me. & he that loveth me shall be loved of my father & I will love him & will manifest myself to him (23) If a man Love me he will keep my words. & my Father will love him. & we will come unto him, & make our abode with him. 2) Essentially after this man has then recieved his calling and election. He then has to reject the Lord and the Plan of Salvation. He has to crucify the Lord anew. I only know of two sons of perdition, Judas Iscariot and Cain. I can think of none others. And even Judas Iscariot's betrayal and final destination is under debate. Joseph F. Smith Gospel Doctrine p 433-435 If Judas really had known God's power, and had partaken thereof, and did actually "deny the truth" and "defy" that power, "having denied the Holy Spirit after he had received it," and also "denied the Only Begotten," after God had "revealed him" unto him, then there can be no doubt that he "will die the second death. That Judas did partake of all this knowledge—that these great truths had been revealed to him—that he had received the Holy Spirit by the gift of God, and was therefore qualified to commit the unpardonable sin, is not at all clear to me. To my mind it strongly appears that not one of the disciples possessed sufficient light, knowledge nor wisdom, at the time of the crucifixion, for either exaltation or condemnation; for it was afterward that their minds were opened to understand the scriptures, and that they were endowed with power from on high; without which they were only children in knowledge, in comparison to what they afterwards become under the influence of the Spirit..... But not knowing that Judas did commit the unpardonable sin; nor that he was a "son of perdition without hope" who will die the second death, nor what knowledge he possessed by which he was able to commit so great a sin, I prefer, until I know better, to take the merciful view that he may be numbered among those for whom the blessed Master prayed, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Finally as I have already stated we do not know what occurs there. So trying to define it is worthless. D&C 76:45 And the end thereof, neither the place thereof, nor their torment, no man knows. Yet men have tried. Take for Example Brigham Young's supposition of their destiny. Journal of Discourses 1:275-276 Jesus says, he will DESTROY death and him that hath the power of it. What can you make of this but decomposition, the returning of the organized particles to their native element, after suffering the wrath of God until the time appointed. That appears a mystery, but the principle has been in existence from all eternity, only it is something you have not known or thought of. When the elements in an organized form do not fill the end of their creation, they are thrown back again, like brother Kimball’s old pottery ware, to be ground up, and made over again. All I have to say about it is what Jesus says—I will destroy Death, and him that hath the power of it, which is the devil. And if he ever makes “a full end of the wicked,” what else can he do than entirely disorganize them, and reduce them to their native element? Here are some of the mysteries of the kingdom. In my mind this could be accomplished by sending a spirit or resurrected being into a black hole. This would cause the matter that was once a soul to become torn apart into its most basic parts. Hence a complete dissolution. Do I think that a black hole is Outer Darkness? I don't know. But its a bad place.

You gonna share?

LOL Think im gonna keep an eye on you.

When I made my statement I made a generalized statement knowing that both LDS and non-LDS would be reading my words. I wanted to make a distinction between the non-LDS beliefs of Hell and what we (LDS members) currently know and understand as Spirit Prison. If you want to say that we believe in Hell which we don't. You would actually be commenting about Spirit Prison. And the many quotes that you listed above are very nice but the best information we have about Spirt Prison is in D&C 138. It is by far - the most clear and precise explanation of Spirit Prison that we currently have. From D&C 138:30-33 we know that missionaries are currently carrying the light of the gospel to the souls that are in Spirit Prison. This proves that there is hope for those that are in Spirit Prison. That they can still repent of their sins and recieve the gospel. If you are going to compare our Spirit Prison to anything, it is much more applicable to what other religions believe to be Purgatory. I stand by my statement. We do not believe in a Hell. If you want to use the term Hell to describe a temporary feeling of mental anguish thats fine. But when you throw around the term Hell especially in a mixed group there is going to be lots of confusion.

Vincenzo Di Francesca - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Check out this guys story. He appreciated the LDS faith from a distance for 40 years before he took the plunge. Its not a race. Its only important that you cross the finish line alive.

What's really kool about this Sixth Sense analogy is that I think it applies to LDS members also. When I read and understood the King Follett Discourse, I also had an awakening experience that changed how I interpreted many of my previous LDS beliefs. Was wondering if this happened to anyone else?

You must have seen this movie if you are gonna make a comment btw. This movie is directed by M. Night Shyamalan and stars Bruce Willis and Haley Joel Osment. Bruce Willis' character has some experiences in the first 90% of the movie that we experience with him. During the last 10% of the movie we have a different perspective of the experiences that are interpreted by Haley Joel Osment's point of view, and it totally makes Bruce Willis' character re-define the meaning behind his previous experiences. It is a profound awakening. I liken this experience to being LDS in a way. When non-LDS christians read the scriptures they have an interpretation based upon their core beliefs. LDS members on the other hand have the Book of Mormon, D&C, and modern day revelation that gives us a distinct advantage in understanding the bible and basic truth about God and the plan of salvation. I have seen quite a few exercises in debate in these forums trying to explain the differences between LDS doctrine and mainstream christian doctrine and seems to be an effort in futility. Going back to The Sixth Sense you may recollect that Osment's character never had an argument with Willis' character telling him that his pre-enlightenment views were incorrect. He just listened and set a good example. And he let Willis come to the realization of the truth in his own due time. I suggest that we try to be more like Osment's character and stop the futile debates. We know the truth. We should continue to present the truth and our core beliefs clearly and in an honorable fashion with scripture and testimony. Maybe we should make a non-LDS Gospel Discussion forum?

Im gonna have to disagree with this statement, especially that it is LDS to the core. First off "saved" is not an LDS term. We use the term in speaking with non-LDS christians so that we can have an area of common ground but there is no such thing as being saved in LDS doctrine. We believe in redemption from the fall of Adam, which all receive freely because of the Atonement. The term exaltation on the other hand refers to a person fulfilling all requirements requisite for entrance into the highest level of the Celestial Kingdom. Second off we don't even believe in a place called Hell. Hell as defined by non-LDS christians is a place of eternal torment where there is fire and devils, etc. It does not exist according to our doctrine. Sure we believe in Spirit Prison (which is temporary and there is no physical punishment because no one there will have a body). We also believe in an outer darkness but NO ONE knows what occurs in outer darkness (D&C 76: 43-46), and those people that eventually go there will be a very miniscule amount. So I'm gonna take Outer Darkness completely out of the discussion. Thus LDS members don't believe that anyone can go to Hell. The worst place that LDS students believe that people can go is actually the Telestial Kingdom which is a Degree of Glory. And interestingly, I think that most other Christian religions associate "Heaven" with what we believe is the Telestial Kingdom.

I dont have a problem if this member requires $40 for each healing if he does it to help the member to have faith, and then donates the $40 to the Church. But pocketing it would be a no-no in my opinion.

I happen to be a healer. But I heal with Steal. True Story. Ever heard of the placebo effect? It is powerful. There was an excellent study done to test the placebo vs. knee scopes for mild arthritis. It was a single blind study where the patients were treated with a spinal anesthesia and then they either had a real knee scope with 1) a debridement or 2) a sham operation (the docs made a real incision and made a fuss about squirting some water and pulling the leg around but no scope or debridement was performed). Results - no difference. Both groups of patients reported a significant increase in knee funciton and decrease in pain. Many of the patients who were in the sham group even stated that they would recommend the operation to their family members. Why did it work? Because the patients believed that it would help them to feel better. And it did. John 9: 6-7 When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay, And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing. Do you think that Christ applied clay to the blind man's eyes because the clay had special medicinal properties, or do you think that perhaps Christ knew that the blind man did not have enough faith to be healed and needed this outward display of action to boost his faith?

Before we can have a reasonable discussion your gonna need to define some more terms. 1) Second Death 2) God (with respect to "You are worthy to live with God") God as we know it can refer to 3 personages. Elohim, Jehovah, and the Holy Ghost. Those who attain the Celestial kingdom can interact with all 3 Gods. Those who attain the Terrestrial kingdom can interact with Jehovah and the Holy Ghost. Those who attain the Telestial kingdom can interact only with the Holy Ghost. Those sons of perdition can not interact with any of the Gods. D&C 76

Thats the whole point. Saved is a wastebasket term.

Im sneaky like that. Im just trying to make a point that the concepts that we use to define our terms lead to most of the confusion that we have in debates.

I submit that someone can be "saved" without ever believing or accepting Christ in this mortal life. The fact that we exist here on Earth demonstrates that we accepted Jehovah as our savior during the pre-existence. Therefore everyone who comes to earth will be "saved" (excepting those Sons of Perdition though).

I've been following this thread from a distance. It seems to have mutated from the original topic of differences between the kingdoms of heaven into a head butting Grace vs. Works. Seems like its about time for me to toss my hard head into the fray. I grew up in Texas with a bunch of born again christians who kept on asking me if I was saved. I'd then have to have a semantic discussion with them about what the term saved actually denotes and then I would reply - Yes I have. They would then disagree with me and try to point out how I was not saved according to their defination. It was a complete waste of time. Well im gonna try to bring the discussion of kingdoms of heaven and Grace vs. Works back together. If your religion believes that heaven is a place where you rest from your labors and spend the rest of eternity glorifying God then you are absolutely correct in your declaration that we can only be saved by grace alone. On the other hand... If your religion believes that heaven is a place where we will continue to progress and have the opportunity to be co-equal with God. Then Grace alone will NOT let you enter into the gates of that kingdom. Works are required to gain exaltation. The problem with this thead is that most of us are talking about the Celestial Kingdom. Whereas some of us are talking about the Telestial Kingdom. Its all perspective.

King Follett Discourse This link is to the available recorded versions of the actual King Follet Discourse that Joseph Smith delivered on April 7, 1844. It is a collection of 7 different accounts of the talk that was given by the prophet on that day. It is thought to be the best representation of revealed knowledge concerning the pathway of Man -> God. Lorenzo Snow couplet theology - MormonWiki.org Is also a great place to start. I think SpiritSeeker already made this link but for some reason I couldnt get that link to work. There are 2 tabs on the top of the web page, don't miss the discussion tab. Now this is some Deep Doctrine. And takes a pretty solid foundation to understand. As you will see if you study it in depth, there still are many controversies that exist concerning the specifics of the topic. Enjoy.

Yes Adam and Eve did act contrary to the recommendation of God by partaking of the Fruit. And the Fruit did have 2 effects on them. 1) it made them mortal, and 2) it opened their eyes and gave them understanding of good and evil (possibly the tree let them sense the light of Christ). But this was the plan. It occurred exactly as God planed it. If Adam had not partaken of the Fruit, then Gods plan would have truly been frustrated. Are you saying that Adam and Eve literally partook of the fruit and the we figuratively partake of the fruit? I think that we inherited the knowledge of good and evil because we were born from imperfect mortal parents. I believe that Adam and Eve were innocent because they were created as mortals from perfect parents. Woah Nelly, your gonna have to back that one up. The only thing that I have ever read that comes close to what you are implying is Wilford Woodruff quoting Brigham Young saying, "Mother Eve was a daughter of Adam" Which sounds like nonsense to me much like alot of the Adam-God theory that has been rejected by both contempories of Brigham Young and Modern Prophets. The status of the "Adam-God theory" was summed up in 1897 in a private letter outlined by President Wilford Woodruff and written by Apostle Joseph F. Smith: President Young no doubt expressed his personal opinion or views upon the subject. What he said was not given as revelation or commandment from the Lord. The doctrine was never submitted to the councils of the Priesthood nor to the Church for approval or ratification, and was never formally or otherwise accepted by the Church. It is therefore in no sense binding upon the Church. In 1976 President Spencer W. Kimball stated the following: We wam you against the dissemination of doctrines which are not according to the scriptures and which are alleged to have been taught by some of the General Authorities of past generations. Such for instance is the Adam-God theory. We denounce that theory and hope that everyone will be cautioned against this and other kinds of false doctrine (Church News, Oct. 9, 1976). Where do you get this from? I've never heard this argument before. I think you misunderstood my idea of how Adam was born, and how the Fall was 'set-up'. 1) Immortal Bodies only produce spirits 2) Thus to create Adam and Eve the Gods had to become mortals. 3) God and His Wife(s) came to Earth partook of the Tree of KoG&E. 4) While God and His Wife(s) were mortal they had sexual relations and produced Adam and then Eve. Its possible that God could have used 2 of his plural wives to create here. Thus Adam and Eve could have had different mothers but they had the same father and they were NOT conceived in sin. Their parents were Gods which had been sealed together and who were perfect. Because of this unique type of parentage, Adam and Eve were born innocent. 5) In order to set up the Fall, God then introduced the Fruit of the Tree of Life into Adam and Eve at a very early age. Adam and Eve were then converted into immortals and yet were innocent. Now they are ready for the fall.

OK I agree that Adam was forbidden to consume the fruit of the tree of KoG&E. Moses 3:17 But I'm not even sure if it was a transgression - violation of a law, command. I read it as more of a don't touch the fire, it will burn you statement (I deeply believe that God wanted Adam and Eve to partake of the fruit). I'm not sure where your comment that it was a sin for all else to partake of the fruit originates from... As to how Christ could have done this without transgressing well... It has been done many times before. Lets look at the birth of Adam and Eve. Joseph Fielding Smith, Man His Origin and Destiny, p. 354 True it is that the body of man enters upon its career as a tiny germ or embryo, which becomes an infant, quickened at a certain stage by the spirit whose tabernacle it is, and the child, after being born, develops into a man. There is nothing in this, however, to indicate that the original man, the first of our race, began life as anything less than a man, or less than the human germ or embryo that becomes a man. So Adam was born. He was not molded of clay. I believe that he was born like everyone else, and that he had parents. Moses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven of water and of the Spirit and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory. In this verse God is clearly speaking to Adam. And tells him that he was born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit. IF he was born with blood he was born a mortal not an immortal. So based on the previous 2 statements I am going to argue that Adam was born as a mortal just like everyone else. How was this achieved? Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 50 Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they were brought forth and lived with him. Then he commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as he had been created in this flesh himself, by partaking of the coarse material that was organized and composed this earth, until his system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of his children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth. Waiting for Worlds End, Diary of Wilford Woodruff, April 9, 1852 – quoting Brigham Young, p. 150 When our Father came into the Garden He came with his celestial body & brought one of his wifes with him & eat of the fruit of the garden until He could begat a tabernacle. Why was this necessary? Because Celestial beings only create Spirits. Doctrines of Salvation, volume 2, p. 68 Spirit Children in the Resurrection. Those who attain to the exaltation in the celestial kingdom shall have the power of eternal increase of posterity, and they shall be "above all, because all things are subject unto them." Children born to parents who have obtained, through their faithfulness, the fullness of these blessings, shall be spirit children not clothed upon with tabernacles of flesh and bones. These children will be like we were before we came into this world. Franklin D. Richards, Scriptural Items, July 16, 1843 - quoting Joseph Smith The earthly is the image of the Heavenly shows that is by the multiplication of Lives that the eternal worlds are created and occupied that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Wilford Woodruff Journal, Funeral sermon delivered at Nauvoo, Ill. west side of the temple on Sunday March 20, 1842 – quoting Joseph Smith Underlining added by Mikbone Resurrection - We Come Forth as we Lay Down - No Blood - Children with a Child's Body As concerning the resurrection I will merely say that all men will come from the grave as they lie down, whether old or young their will not be added unto their stature one cubit neither taken from it. All being raised by the power of God having the spirit of God in their bodies & not blood Children will be enthroned in the presence of God & the Lamb with bodies of the same stature that were on earth, Having been redeemed by the Blood of the Lamb they will there enjoy a fullness of that light Glory & intelligence which is received in the celestial kingdom of God "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord, for they rest from their labors & their works do follow them So when God came down to Earth and created Man, He had to do so by becoming mortal himself. I believe that I have documented this pretty well. I suppose that the Tree of Life was in the Garden so that God and his Wife could then reverse themselves and Adam and Eve back into immortal beings. And because Adam and Eve were not begotten in sin they were innocent and did not know the difference between good and evil. I imagine that this must have been a nice vacation time for God and His Wife (and well deserved I must say). And if Jehovah had a body of Flesh and Bone during our pre-existence. He and His Wife could have been the ones who actually begot Adam and Eve. This would bring some sense to the following scriptures: Colossians 1:16 Alma 11:38-39 D&C 93:10 Ether 3:15 Isaiah 45:9-12 Moses 2:27 Mosiah 26:23 This arguement can be easily addressed via simple definations. I used Dorland's Medical Dictionary for the medical terms. Beget - to father, sire Birth - the emergence of a new individual from the body of its parent. The act or process of being born Born - brought forth by or as if by birth. Blastocyst - the mammalian conceptus, a single, spherical layer of cells enclosing a hollow, central cavity. Coitus - sexual connection per vaginam between male and female. Conception - the onset of pregnancy, marked by implantation of the blastocyst in the endometrium, the formation of a visible zygote. Embryo - those derivatives of the fertilized ovum that eventually become the offspring, during their period of most rapid development. Fertilization - a sequence of events that begins with contact betweeen a spermatozoon and an ovum, leading to their fusion, which stimulates the completion of the oocyte maturation with release of the second polar body. Male and female pronuclei then form and merge, synapsis follows, which restores the diploid number of chromosomes and results in biparental inheritance and the determination of sex. The process of fertilization leads to the formation of a zygote and ends with the initiation of its clevage. Surrogate - substitute; one put into the place of another. Vessel - hollow utensil, such as a cup, vase, or pitcher, used as a container, especially for liquids. Virgin - a person who has not had sexual intercourse Zygote - the fertilized ovum; the cell resulting from union of a male and a female gamete (sperm and ovum). Alma 7:10 And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God. In my mind it is you and not I that is misinterpreting in this context. It is true that conception in layman's terms can be defined as to become pregnant. But in no way does it imply coitus. You are basically arguing my point here. Nicodemus asked Christ a point blank question. Christ avoided the question and made a statement about spiritual re-birth. Thus as I read the passage, Christ took a stance of Incomplete Disclosure. Woot! we agree that Christ was essentially different than the rest of us. I have been wanting to make a list of the ways that Jehovah/Christ was different than us. Sounds like a different thread though.

Just for the sake of arguement... Let us assume that Jehovah had a Body of Flesh and Bone prior to his birth on this earth to the Virgin Mary. How could He be born again? This question has been posed previously... John 3 1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Well, as I see it, you would have to do at least 3 things. 1) Babies are young. So you would have to make the biologic body grow younger, perhaps to the state of an embryo. -- Can an immortal body change the appearance of its biologic age? Bodies will come up, of course, as they were laid down, but will be restored to their proper, perfect frame immediately. Old people will not look old when they come forth from the grave. Scars will be removed. No one will be bent or wrinkled… Children Resurrected as Children. Of course, children who die do not grow in the grave. They will come forth with their bodies as they were laid down, and then they will grow to the full stature of manhood or womanhood after the resurrection, but all will have their bodies fully restored. Doctrines of Salvations, vol. 2, p. 292-293 2) The immortal body would have to be converted to a mortal body - This is a simple accomplishment via the use of the fruit of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. 3) This embryo would then have to be transplanted into the womb of a healthy young mortal female. Perhaps as is alluded to in Alma 7:10 -- And behold, he shall be born of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a virgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and conceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.

This is not the only time that Jehovah ministered to a man prior to his mortal sojourn as a savior. D&C 107 53 Three years previous to the death of Adam, he called Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, and Methuselah, who were all high priests, with the residue of his posterity who were righteous, into the valley of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and there bestowed upon them his last blessing. 54 And the Lord appeared unto them, and they rose up and blessed Adam, and called him Michael, the prince, the archangel. 55 And the Lord administered comfort unto Adam, and said unto him: I have set thee to be at the head; a multitude of nations shall come of thee, and thou art a prince over them forever.

If Jehovah did have a physical body (immortal) during this revelation? Where did he get it from? Thats an even better question.

Sciatica is nasty, never had it myself. Its kinda important to know if she is gonna have a simple decompression or spinal instrumentation (metal hardware and bony fusion). And make sure that her surgeon has a good reputation and track record. This is based upon a slogan that I figured out long ago... -- It can always get worse -- Unfortunatley that slogan can apply to any situation.