StrawberryFields

Yes, I remember you telling me about that on IM. My point is that a spirit can leave(for a limited time only) without a person being dead. It is the heartbeat that determines life. I don't know if it can really be considered life if the heart beat contnues ~ when there is no brain activity. God has to decide I guess. I guess the jury is still out on whether Terri had brain activity or not, so for now let's just place that right here* If I understand this, if the body or (shell as it has been described) remains alive with a heart beat...but because a brain lacks activity the person is considered dead right? It just doesn't sound right. To me a people are alive until their spirit leaves their body. You see I have this belief that our bodies merely house our spirits. We are not our bodies; we are the observer inside of the body. If you were to say "I am so sorry" and really mean it... try it now, and say it out loud. Did you do anything when your hands? If it didn't work this time, try it again when you express something sincere and meaningful. When I do this I usually put my hand close to my heart. It is an instinct and I believe that we do this because first, it is our heart felt words, and second because that is where the observer is. It is the observer who controls our brains and our brains control our bodies.

I think that a Mercy Killing might be in order if it is requested by the kill-ee. If someone other then the kill-ee is in charge of the request, then instead of mercy killing you have murder. It should also be humane like they do to a convicted rapist etc. Where is Dr. K when you need him?The mercy killing to an animal can not be something as barbaric as starvation or you will be in trouble.

Dare I ask what this means? I blame S... N... O... W... for this. Oh O.K.

Yes, it is all in what you know and also what experience has taught you in your life.Terri was brain damaged and unable to speak for her self. I feel that Michael used the control that he had, being her guardian, unrighteously. I have a real problem with control freaks who take advantage of the disabled. This is one of the reasons why he is creepy to me.

Thanks for posting today! I mean it has really been a long time since I have had a good belly laugh from a post on LDS Talk!

Yes, I remember you telling me about that on IM.My point is that a spirit can leave(for a limited time only) without a person being dead. It is the heartbeat that determines life.

No Silly! It was in "quotes" and it was done by Barbara Simpson, "The Babe in the Bunker" as she's known to her KSFO 560 radio talk-show audience in San Francisco, has a 20-year radio, television and newspaper career in the Bay Area and Los Angeles." see at the bottom of my post. Thanks for the laugh though.

Oh, THAT I do Know!

The parents made it a public spectacle and I would think that they must have experience more pain seeing their daughter suffer in such a horrid body for decades, more than they would experience pain at seeing her released from it. I can only rejoice for Terri at this point. Had not the family gotten all up in arms and started another fight, they would have been allowed to stay. But they were so contentious they were escorted out. Amillia, I will discuss this with you because you are not attacking me personally. According to one of the posts here the decision was made by the court that Michael was the only one allowed to be with her when she died. The post went on to say something like this...when the hospice staff felt that Terri was close to death, they went to get Michael who was in another room within the hospice center. He then threw the family out and posed for pictures... It seems a bit self serving to me. I would have made a fuss myself if I was being thrown out of the presence of my child or sibling as she took her last breath court order or not. It is my opinion that Michael is doing some things to hurt the Schindlers. Terri is catholic and her family would like to have her buried and not cremated. What would be his motive to over stepping her religious preferences?

Now that IS funny!

Science and medicine is what "saved" Terri all those years ago whenher heart stopped. It is what revived her in the damaged state she's been in for the last 15 years. If "god" had anything to do with it, then she would have died at that time! Your son might have died without medical intervention. Would you be willing to just pray and leave it all to god? Or are you actually having him treated by medical science? I am glad that science has made the strides it has in the realm of medicine. Your comments are silly and disingenous. Yes I believe that science/ Medicine did play a part in saving Nick's Life. It was also science that told me that my son probably wouldn't make it three times. As you will see from this image Nick's head injuries are extensive. Nick being alive today is nothing short of a Miracle and the Will of our Heavenly Father. Biz, you have not been here very much lately so I post this for you and those who are new.

Dare I ask what this means?

I find it very hard to believe that Terri was just a shell. I also believe that is why I believe that she was murdered because she was "in there".The rest you said about the money I disagree with but you are entitled to your opinion. :)

No? Well, who's forcing you then? (and please don't roll your eyes at me; I may be tempted to call a paramedic) She is right you know.

I do believe that Lazarus was really dead and it was the Lord who brought him and others back to life.In the medical community, they pronounce someone dead after their heart stops beating... so they are alive until that point right?

That is just awful! What was it in the syringe?

I believe she died when Father in Heaven took her spirit. When that was, only she and the Lord would know. I could guess that it was sometime between 1990 and 2005. Honestly, we could debate this till the cows come home, but it wouldn't ever come to a difinitive answer. How could we know except the Spirit told us, and since it really isn't our business, the Spirit probably won't tell us. Amillia, Thank you for your reply. I believe the same thing that you do about a person dies when Heavenly Father takes their spirit. I tend to believe that we don't actually die until our hearts stop beating. You take someone who has a near death experience, and for a time, their spirit leaves their body right?

I think that for many of us this is a huge debate. Using our knowledge as Christian members (I think that covers most of us), when did Terri die? Did she die in 1990? Did she die March 31, 2005?

Mercy Killing "It's a strange business I'm in. I do talk radio and I write. I know about a lot of things and read everything I can get my hands on. I talk to reporters and scientists and experts and citizens with stories to tell. Most of the time, the subjects we discuss on my programs deal with problems and situations that affect other people. It isn't often that the subject applies to me or my family. That was the case. Not now. A little over two weeks ago, I interviewed a man on my program whom I'd interviewed before. He had written "Forced Exit," a book about euthanasia, what we used to call "mercy killing." Wesley Smith has a new book out now. It's called "The Culture of Death: The Assault on Medical Ethics in America," published by Encounter Books. It's a chilling account of the hidden changes in medical care in this country and more importantly, the deliberate changes in the training of doctors, nurses, ethics personnel and other health-care workers. Remember how most of us were concerned about the wonders of medical technology keeping us alive artificially, making us slaves to tubes and machines? Remember how we all were advised to have living wills which would designate what we didn't want done to us if we were in final and desperate straits? Remember all the money we paid to lawyers to draw up such documents and how when it was done, we felt safe. Forget it. You are not safe. You are more at risk than ever. Not from being kept alive longer than you desire but from having your life ended sooner than nature might dictate and in fact, sooner than you or your family want. I won't mince words. What I'm saying is that you and your loved ones are now more in danger of having your life ended by doctors refusing medical care than in having it extended artificially. In his book, Smith describes what is called the "Futile Care Theory." What it means in simple language is that doctors will refuse treatment, any treatment, if they decide that it's your time to die. It won't matter if the patient wants help. It won't matter if the family wants help. The answer will be "no." *85 When I interviewed Smith, I never dreamed that within days, I would experience exactly that situation. But I did. It is the most devastating experience you can imagine. It left me filled with raging emotions, unbelievable anger and frustration. It left me with my father dead. He died just a few nights ago. He was in the late stages of prostate cancer. We knew he would not survive that battle. He had decided long ago that he did not want radiation, chemotherapy or surgery. That was his decision. We treated the illness with hormones and herbs and it was controlled for several years. But it finally did spread, and we knew the end was coming. One week ago, he was transferred to a larger hospital to have blood drained from his chest. He was conscious, rational, could eat and drink on his own and had minimal pain. His only medication was a blood pressure pill, a baby aspirin, a Tylenol if he had pain, and an IV drip with potassium. Hardly what you would expect of a "terminal" case. He was to be transferred back to his original hospital/convalescent care. That's when it all happened, so fast it made our heads spin. The doctors decided on their own that we wanted only pain assistance so they discontinued all the medicines he was getting, including the IV drip. They never asked the family; it was an arbitrary decision. My poor mother, who was alone with Daddy, believed them when they said it was the "best" thing for him. They were doctors after all! Besides, she told me, she was afraid to question them for fear they might do something to hurt Daddy. It was a weekend. When I found out what they had done, I demanded to have a doctor, only to be told he was not on call. They could only take Daddy to the emergency room if it were an emergency and it wasn't and they could not re-insert the IV without doctors' orders. (Catch 22!) I implored the head nurse and was told that Daddy was going "through a process"! (A process?) Yes, I was told in all seriousness, my dad was "processing." That's the new way of saying that Daddy was dying. The nurse also said that dehydrating Daddy would be good because it would force his body to produce endorphins to kill pain. I could not believe my ears! After much discussion, I finally got him to have the doctor call me. He did but refused to reinsert the IV. They coerced my mother to agree to wait until Monday to see how Daddy was. They even told her the IV would do more harm. Daddy ate and talked, right up to the end. He even ate two desserts with gusto. I talked to him a few hours earlier and he was his old self. Two days before, I'd asked him if he wanted to die and he said no. You can live a couple of weeks without food but only about two days without water. The doctor removed the IV Friday night. Daddy was dead Sunday night. Two days. The doctor expressed his regrets to my Mom and said he was sorry I was so upset. He said "that often happens with family members who just don't understand and get very emotional." I don't know how he sleeps at night. I just can't wait to get his bill. I got more consolation from the vet when my dog died. Be warned. This is not just my tragedy; this same fate awaits your family because that is what the medical system is teaching their people to do -- to us, their patients, under the guise of medicine. God help us. Barbara Simpson, "The Babe in the Bunker" as she's known to her KSFO 560 radio talk-show audience in San Francisco, has a 20-year radio, television and newspaper career in the Bay Area and Los Angeles."

Still? Why would Michael use the money meant for Terri's rehab to pay his high powered, right to death attorney, to kill her? I know there will be the Michael supporters that will say that that is what Terri wanted but, his actions have placed much doubt on that. Why did he wait until he had her rehab money in the bank before he brought that up? Sure he was the dutiful husband until he had that money and then he remembered that she wanted to die. To my knowledge, the people who recall Terri's dying wishes have the last name of Shiavo and Terri was unable to speak for herself. Michael has been fighting to have Terri's wishes granted ever since he has received that money. One can only second guess why the Schindlers made this decision given the state they were in. Hopefully the reason will emerge soon and the speculation will cease.

It doesn't.The Schindlers, unlike Michael, didn't use Terri's rehab money to pay for their legal fees.

Statement of the Schindler Family For Immediate Release ¡¦03-31-05 4.45 PM (GMT-5) Statement of the Schindler Family Pinellas Park, FL ¡¦As you are aware, Terri is now with God and she has been released from all earthly burdens. After these recent years of neglect at the hands of those who were supposed to protect and care for her, she is finally at peace with God for eternity. We are speaking on behalf of our entire family this evening as we share some thoughts and messages to the world regarding our sister and the courageous battle that was waged to save her life from starvation and dehydration. We have a message for the volunteers that have helped our family: Thank you for all that you¡Çve done for our family. Thank you to the hundreds of doctors who volunteered to help Terri. Thank you to the fifty doctors who provided statements under oath to help Terri. Thank you to the lawyers who stood for Terri¡Çs life in the courtrooms of our nation. From running our family¡Çs website, to driving us around, to making meals, to serving in so many ways thank you to all of the volunteers who have been so kind to our family through all of this. We have a message for the supporters and people praying worldwide: Please continue to pray that God gives grace to our family as we go through this very difficult time. We know that many of you never had the privilege to personally know our wonderful sister, Terri, but we assure you that you can be proud of this remarkable woman who has captured the attention of the world. Following the example of the Lord Jesus, our family abhors any violence or any threats of violence. Threatening words dishonor our faith, our family, and our sister, Terri. We would ask that all those who support our family be completely kind in their words and deeds toward others. We have a message to the media: We appreciate your taking Terri¡Çs case to the nation. Please afford our family privacy to grieve at this time. The patience and graciousness of the on-site media here at hospice has been deeply appreciated by our family. We have a message to the many government officials who tried to help Terri: Thank you for all that you¡Çve done. Our family will be forever grateful to all of the outstanding public servants who have tried to save Terri. We have a message to all of the religious leaders who tried to help Terri: Thank you to all people of faith who demonstrated love for Terri and strength of conviction to defend the sacredness of all human life as a precious gift from God. Our family is highly honored that the Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, would speak out so boldly on behalf of our sister, Terri. We have a message of forgiveness: Throughout this ordeal, we are reminded of the words of Jesus on the cross: Father forgive them for they know not what they do.¡¦ Our family seeks forgiveness for anything that we have done in standing for Terri¡Çs life that has not demonstrated the love and compassion required of us by our faith. We have a message to parents worldwide: Our family would encourage parents to spend time with their children and to cherish each and every moment of each and every day with them as a precious gift from God. We have a message to Terri from her family: As a member of our family unable to speak for yourself, you spoke loudly. As a member of our family unable to stand under your own power, you stood with a grace and a dignity that made your family proud. Terri, we love you dearly, but we know that God loves you more than we do. We must accept your untimely death as God¡Çs will. Terri, your life and legacy will continue to live on, as the nation is now awakened to the plight of thousands of voiceless people with disabilities that were previously unnoticed. Your family intends to stand up for the other Terri¡Çs¡¦around this nation and we will do all that we can to change the law so others won¡Çt face the same fate that has befallen you. We have a final thought to share: Our family had hoped this day would never come, but as it has now arrived, we ask ourselves a question in these incredibly sad circumstances: What would the Lord Jesus ask us to do in a moment like this? In John¡Çs Gospel, Jesus responded to the questions of the rabbis, who asked why a man had been born blind. He said: It is so that the works of God might be made manifest through him.¡¦ God¡Çs plan for Terri is unfolding before our eyes. Our prayer at this time is that our Nation will remember the plight of persons with disabilities and commit within our hearts to defend their lives and their dignity for many generations to come.

If one thing is clear to me it is that having a different opinion than some on LDS Talk, brings nothing but insults and name calling my way. Right or wrong, I am entitled to my opinion which by now you should know what that is. Just as some of you believe that the Shindlers are creeps, I believe that about Michael and his creepy attorney. It appears that it is not possible to have a civilized discussion about this case because there are only two sides and if I say what I feel to be true, I am insulted, and attacked personally. Honestly, I don't need it especially from someone who means nothing to me. From my friends, yes it hurts me, and it¡Çs just not worth the extra pain this causes me. In other words... stop it, and rise above the personal attacks.

I am very saddened for Terri¡Çs family. Although I don¡Çt know them personally I believe them to be the same kind of loving parents that most of us are. I can¡Çt imagine what they have had to endure watching their daughter being tortured and executed by starvation. Then her ¡Èloving partner¡É throws her family out of the room just 10 minutes before she passes. To all Michael supports¡ÄWhy would he do that?? I have an idea but I would like to be enlightened from the other side. A woman has been executed in a very public way today. It is really a sad thing that on the day of her death, there are those who still pleasure in mocking at that is sacred to Terri, her family.

PD Will you post the article the link doesn't work unless you are a subscriber.